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Let's settle this once and for all - who is the best heavyweight of this era?

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who is the best heavyweight of this era?

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Post by Sugar Floyd Louis Sun 15 Apr 2012, 9:31 pm

Vitali or Wlad?? And to go a step further... imagine they weren't brothers and absolutely hated each other and fought (both in their prime) who wins?

I say Vitali in terms of resume, but have a sneaky feeling Wlad beats older bro in a fight.

What say you...


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Post by ShahenshahG Sun 15 Apr 2012, 9:35 pm

Wlad 8/10

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Post by manos de piedra Sun 15 Apr 2012, 9:39 pm

I would probably say the opposite. I think as it stands now Wlad has compiled the better record with more wins over ranked fighters and two unification fights to his credit.

Peak v peak I think Vitali wins through sheer bloody mindedness although I definately thik its a closer run thing than I used to. Wlad has done alot to convince me in the last couple of years that the fight is closer than I used to think.

As it stands now I think Wlad would outpoint Vitali.

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Post by WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs Sun 15 Apr 2012, 9:41 pm

Wlad is the best, but I would pick vitali to beat wlad.

Vitali will be outboxed by wlad for large parts but given wlad won't be able to bully vitali like he does most of his opponents, vitali would get to his chin and it would be lights out when he does

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Post by zx1234 Sun 15 Apr 2012, 9:44 pm

both have very similar resumes at the moment but given wlad is younger he will likely end up with a better resume, i think wlad wins a decision

i think people will probably say wlad has a much better resume but didn't really have many notable wins til 2005 whereas vitali has had some from as far back as early 2000s

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Post by The Galveston Giant Sun 15 Apr 2012, 9:45 pm

If they ever did fight i think i would gouge my eyes out instead, too much brotherly love. Wlad for me and Vitali in a head to head also.
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Post by azania Sun 15 Apr 2012, 9:46 pm

I dont see how VK has the better resume. I'd pick Wlad to win but not 100% convinced. Wlad is by far the better boxer but his chin.......!

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Post by Sugar Floyd Louis Sun 15 Apr 2012, 9:46 pm

Have any of you made a mental picture of this fight? I'm trying my best Laugh They seem like close brothers and the type to rarely dispute (could be an image though).

One thing's for sure they must've run things in school.

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Post by 88Chris05 Sun 15 Apr 2012, 9:48 pm

In terms of resume, it's a no contest. Wladimir has the longevity (let's not forget Vitali's four year hiatus from the title picture between 2004 and 2008), the unifications, the general recognition from the public as the top Heavyweight dog and, as far as I'm concerned, the better list of wins, too, particularly since Vitali's return.

I'm largely with Manos on the issue of a head to head match up; I see Wladimir outpointing his older brother had the fight been a 2012 affair. Wladimir's perfected his impressive ability to keep and control distance and Vitali gets pushed back a little easier than he used to. I'd say he doesn't carry the same menace in his punches as he used to, on top of that.

Evaluating the fight if both were at their peak is a little different. I used to be firmly of the opinion that Vitali would win, and moreover win inside the distance, pretty much every time. A little bit too busy, aggressive and spiteful for Wladimir, I thought.

My gut instinct perhaps still supports that, but Wladimir really has come on leaps and bounds and, if his performance against Haye is anything to go by, may still have the odd bit of improvement to come yet. He has such excellent powers of concentration and discipline, it wouldn't surprise me if he could jab his way to a points victory. Overall, I'd back Vitali if I had to choose one, maybe picking him to edge a series of fights, but Wladimir would have his moments somewhere along the way.
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Post by Sugar Floyd Louis Sun 15 Apr 2012, 9:50 pm

I'm beginning to retract... Wladmir does have a questionable chin and if Vlad caught him cleanly with all that power it could be lights out.

Very hard fight to call.

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Post by Sugar Floyd Louis Sun 15 Apr 2012, 9:53 pm

Vitali is more tough and Wladmir is more skilled.... if you merged them you'd actually have a damn good heavyweight that gives all previous greats a problem.

What one lacks the other has.

By the way surely Wladmir's use of the jab (overall in defence and offence) is up there in history?!

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Post by ShahenshahG Sun 15 Apr 2012, 9:55 pm

Na, Vitalis punches are more see-able and Wlad wouldnt dare swing wildly at Vitali. He backs off all night and jabs to a victory more often than not. Crucial thing is - I dont thing Vitali knocsk him out with one punch so Wlad makes it through the night bruised but victorious. (possible stoppage ko but not a flat ko)

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Sun 15 Apr 2012, 10:09 pm

I actually think that Vitalis pre retirement resume is better than that of Wlads. Norris, Hide, Donald, Bean and Sullivan represents a tougher opposition set than the garbage they've fought since Lewis' retirement which is a another plue for Vitali the manner of his defeats to class fighters in Byrd and Lewis.

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Post by Super D Boon Sun 15 Apr 2012, 11:17 pm

It's a tough one. Vitali holds some good wins early in his career and the manner of defeats in his only losses both had an element of misfortune about them whereas Wlad's defeats have been horrors.

I tend to think Wlad shades it purely due to numbers and trinkets won. Tend to feel he shaded it after beating Haye. Hindsight is a wonderful thing because many at the time believed Haye would beat Wlad so when Wlad shut him down and shut him up I persoanlly thought it a very significant win.

However I'm willing to change my mind if either one of them took on and beat a mammoth of a man even bigger than themselves. As much as I respect them despite being German based fighters I'm so fed up of them jabbing and chucking around cruiserweights and small fat heavies. Would love to see Fury or Ustinov in there just to see what it's like for them to have to punch up for a change!

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Post by Ronikara Mon 16 Apr 2012, 10:11 am

I think the point made by super hits the nail on the head, what if they had to punch up for a change. Lets not forget Wlad's way around his chin problem has been to grab hold of his opponents and lean down on them whenever they get close. He wouldn't be able to do this against a peak Vitali. As imperious as Wlad been recently, and as much as I appreciate his better technique and speed, I still think Vitali wins this handily on sheer power and brutality.

A fight between them now would be much harder to call because I'm not sure Vitali retains the same one punch power that he used to have.

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Post by monty junior Mon 16 Apr 2012, 5:26 pm

I say if they fight now Wlad win's easily. What people always disregard is the possibility of Wlad knocking out Vitali, for me and going by a few of opponents that faced them both Wladimir is comfortably the bigger puncher. Especially these days, Vitali barely ever get's hit but he's not taken on many big punchers beside Lewis who imo is on about par with Wlad in terms of power and we saw what Vitali was like after 6 rounds.

Prime for prime, Wlad on points.

Nowadays i think Wlad would stop him.

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Post by DaveVDK Mon 16 Apr 2012, 5:39 pm

Should make a poll...

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Post by Ronikara Mon 16 Apr 2012, 6:33 pm

Monty Vitali has never been put on the floor or properly hurt in a fight, Wlad has been knocked out 3 times and put on the floor 11 times by the same calibre of fighters. Wlad may be the better technical boxer but he wouldn't beat Vitali in his prime.

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Post by Sugar Floyd Louis Mon 16 Apr 2012, 7:03 pm

Dave OK

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Post by milkyboy Mon 16 Apr 2012, 9:54 pm

wlad and vitali are brothers? you live and learn

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Post by monty junior Mon 16 Apr 2012, 11:06 pm

Ronikara wrote:Monty Vitali has never been put on the floor or properly hurt in a fight, Wlad has been knocked out 3 times and put on the floor 11 times by the same calibre of fighters. Wlad may be the better technical boxer but he wouldn't beat Vitali in his prime.

Never hurt? i like Vitali big time but he was running like a rabbit in the headlights after getting tagged by Sanders, he went down, i would say it was a definite knock down but the referee ruled it a slip. Lewis had him holding on for dear life, Vitali did well to stay on his feet but you gotta be kidding if you think he wasn't hurt.

Vitali has a better chin no doubt, the problem with me is that he hasn't faced many "punchers". Peter was pretty shot, Lewis,Sanders, Briggs fought with one arm,Hide didn't really land as it was over in two rounds and Arreola barely touched Vitali all night. Vitali has always been good defensively and awkward to hit, whereas the young Wladimir was extremely aggressive and looked to land bombs from the off leaving himself exposed. It's now been seven years since Wladimir's been down, i think Wlad is better at nigh on everything over Vitali except his chin but don't be fooled in to thinking Vitali has an ATG chin, he mainly has excellent defense.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue 17 Apr 2012, 12:19 am

The moment he stood up to that uppercut from Lewis he cemented himself as having an all time great chin, his brother like 95% of fighters wouldn't have got up from let alone stood up to it.

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Post by monty junior Tue 17 Apr 2012, 3:10 am

My point though is Vitali may well have a great chin but it hasn't really been tested enough to call it an ATG. Mavrovic for example took Lewis' best and wasn't even staggered, but he had a short career and only really proved it in the one fight, kinda like Vitali. Does Mavrovic then have an ATG chin? he may well have but didn't really take enough big punches from punchers to prove it much like Klitschko.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue 17 Apr 2012, 7:35 am

Yes Mavrovic also has a great chin.

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Post by compelling and rich Tue 17 Apr 2012, 8:13 am

ive gone for vitali, while i would agree with others that wlad has some better wins on his cv he has also the more defeats and poor defeats at that. vitali has only lewis on a cut and a injury. his performance agaisnt a old lewis is still better performance than anything wlad has done. lets not forget that if vitali wasnt around to step in for his younger brother after every defeat and beat them for him then wlad might well have alot more defeats.

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Post by manos de piedra Tue 17 Apr 2012, 8:59 am

compelling and rich wrote:ive gone for vitali, while i would agree with others that wlad has some better wins on his cv he has also the more defeats and poor defeats at that. vitali has only lewis on a cut and a injury. his performance agaisnt a old lewis is still better performance than anything wlad has done. lets not forget that if vitali wasnt around to step in for his younger brother after every defeat and beat them for him then wlad might well have alot more defeats.

I wouldnt agree with that. The only time Vitali has ever beaten someone that defeated Wlad was against Sanders, who opted to vacate his WBO title and fight Vitali for the vacant WBC belt.

By the same token, Wlad beat Chris Byrd for the WBO title after Byrd had beat Vitali. So they are actually even.

What defeats do you forsee Wlad as having were Vitali not around? - bearing in mind Vitali also retired for almost 4 years during which time Wlad won and unified two of the titles.

Personally I think the idea that Vitali has been some kind of enforcer for his brother has been shown as all but a myth over the last 4/5 years. Vitalis return if anything has probably cost Wlad the opportunity to be undisputed world heavyweighgt champion. I can understand where the theory came from after the Sanders fight but it was actually Sanders that opted to face Vitali and since then I think Wlad has basically shown that its not really the case by unifying 3 of the titles and taking on more ranked opposition.


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Post by Rowley Tue 17 Apr 2012, 9:16 am

Wlad for me and by some distance to be honest. As others have said Wlad did pretty well in Vitali's four year absence and I have seen nothing to suggest that had Vitali not returned Wlad would not be undisputed champion, the same is probably true of Vitali was Wlad not around but think longevity, unifications and sheer consistency over what is now racking up to a decent length of time have to give the edge to Wlad, appreciate his losses come in worst company but they were some time ago and Wlad is clearly a more rounded fighter now, am not going to slaughter a guy eternally for a few losses whilst developing as a fighter.

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Post by Strongback Tue 17 Apr 2012, 9:36 am

I agree Wlad has the the better record and the shiney baubles but I have always felt Vitali stepped aside a bit to allow his younger brother to shine. I haven't done any research to back this up but is just a gut feeling I've had for a long time.

Prime for prime is difficult to call but Vitalis chin makes me think he would be the more confident fighter and would over power Wlad with size and strength. Vitali just seems to be the much more natural fighter of the two. Wlad is possibly too cerebral.

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Post by compelling and rich Tue 17 Apr 2012, 10:56 am

manos de piedra wrote:
compelling and rich wrote:ive gone for vitali, while i would agree with others that wlad has some better wins on his cv he has also the more defeats and poor defeats at that. vitali has only lewis on a cut and a injury. his performance agaisnt a old lewis is still better performance than anything wlad has done. lets not forget that if vitali wasnt around to step in for his younger brother after every defeat and beat them for him then wlad might well have alot more defeats.

I wouldnt agree with that. The only time Vitali has ever beaten someone that defeated Wlad was against Sanders, who opted to vacate his WBO title and fight Vitali for the vacant WBC belt.

By the same token, Wlad beat Chris Byrd for the WBO title after Byrd had beat Vitali. So they are actually even.

What defeats do you forsee Wlad as having were Vitali not around? - bearing in mind Vitali also retired for almost 4 years during which time Wlad won and unified two of the titles.

Personally I think the idea that Vitali has been some kind of enforcer for his brother has been shown as all but a myth over the last 4/5 years. Vitalis return if anything has probably cost Wlad the opportunity to be undisputed world heavyweighgt champion. I can understand where the theory came from after the Sanders fight but it was actually Sanders that opted to face Vitali and since then I think Wlad has basically shown that its not really the case by unifying 3 of the titles and taking on more ranked opposition.



i didnt realise that about sanders, but even still it was nice that wlad didnt have to face him again because of his brother beating him. i wouldnt use byrd as a similar example as there was a good 6 years between those fights and the defeat was hardly the same as wlads to sanders. like others have said vitali was the number one heavyweight at this time then retired to move aside and give wlad his chance, very unlikely that wlad would be regarded higher than him if vitali stuck around beating similar fighters to wlads record. and if he didnt retire he would have always been in his brothers shadow during this period, theres not a win out there that could have propelled him above, unless of course vitali would have been beaten which was very unlikely. all things that wlad had no control over of course so is harsh on him but still true imo.

but vitali did retire whether or not for his brothers sake we dont know but i do believe it was a factor and nothing else being out thier for vitali. so it does go against him i suppose which then only leads me to the head to head. in which i can only see a vitali win. think some people do give wlad to much credit sometimes for his improved defence. i often see just jab then grab and he's alowwed to get away with it bering often the home fighter. this with his size wearing down the smaller fighters has been his blueprint to alot of his victorys all of which wouldnt work against vitali imo. wlad hasnt had to face any decent heavyweight around the same size, while withg vitali we have at least the lewis fight in which to judge him. wlad is all about keeping his distance using his range because of his size advantages but he wouldnt have any against vitali. prime for prime expect vitali to get to him and stop him

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Post by Rowley Tue 17 Apr 2012, 11:03 am

Got to say all this Vitali moved aside for his brother is getting a bit grassy knoll, fake moon landings for me, he said he was injured, was out for a good amount of time and has shown signs of the injury since returning (reduced mobility, heavy strapping etc) so for me guess we have to take it as legit.

Do have to question if people who are arguing Wlad would not have rose to prominence had Vitali not retired (potentially true) would apply the same criteria to Joe Frazier who may well not have risen to prominence had Ali not been forced into exile.

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Post by compelling and rich Tue 17 Apr 2012, 11:12 am

rowley wrote:Got to say all this Vitali moved aside for his brother is getting a bit grassy knoll, fake moon landings for me, he said he was injured, was out for a good amount of time and has shown signs of the injury since returning (reduced mobility, heavy strapping etc) so for me guess we have to take it as legit.

Do have to question if people who are arguing Wlad would not have rose to prominence had Vitali not retired (potentially true) would apply the same criteria to Joe Frazier who may well not have risen to prominence had Ali not been forced into exile.

frazier would have had a harder time of it but he would have fought him at some point. the problem with the brothers is they are/were never going to fight each other so alot of guess work involved around dominance of the division when there has always been two clear stand out fighters

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Post by milkyboy Tue 17 Apr 2012, 11:15 am

who's the better fighter now - wlad

who's best at their respective bests - tough call... one is a fighter, one a boxer. Wlad has the long unbeaten run and is clearly much improved. I'd probably err to wlad more often than not head to head.

Legacy - Vitali's lost twice by injury in fights he was ahead in (doesn't mean he would have won, as that's debatable in the lewis fight). Of course, in the negative, he quit against byrd when it looked to everyone that he could have gone on. In comparison, Wlad has been sparked out by lesser opponents and has developed a very effective defensive style to protect his chin since. That's to his credit, but we watch his fights because we think the opponent has a puncher's chance. That's not the case with vitali. In short, wlad the more talented and better boxer, vitali seemingly the tougher, more natural fighting man. As vitali has been beaten, but never outfought, its vitali for me.

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Post by Rowley Tue 17 Apr 2012, 11:18 am

Yeah realise the analogy is not 100% accurate but there are similarities, as I have said before do get the impression that for some on here (not directed at you CnR) that the glass is always half full with Wlad, the idea or inference that Vitali would step out of the game, deny himself the status of undisputed world heavyweight champion and the countless millions of earnings that go with such status just out of an act of largesse to his little brother seems to me one of the more fanciful attempts to discredit Wlad's acheivements.


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Post by manos de piedra Tue 17 Apr 2012, 11:56 am

compelling and rich wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:
compelling and rich wrote:ive gone for vitali, while i would agree with others that wlad has some better wins on his cv he has also the more defeats and poor defeats at that. vitali has only lewis on a cut and a injury. his performance agaisnt a old lewis is still better performance than anything wlad has done. lets not forget that if vitali wasnt around to step in for his younger brother after every defeat and beat them for him then wlad might well have alot more defeats.

I wouldnt agree with that. The only time Vitali has ever beaten someone that defeated Wlad was against Sanders, who opted to vacate his WBO title and fight Vitali for the vacant WBC belt.

By the same token, Wlad beat Chris Byrd for the WBO title after Byrd had beat Vitali. So they are actually even.

What defeats do you forsee Wlad as having were Vitali not around? - bearing in mind Vitali also retired for almost 4 years during which time Wlad won and unified two of the titles.

Personally I think the idea that Vitali has been some kind of enforcer for his brother has been shown as all but a myth over the last 4/5 years. Vitalis return if anything has probably cost Wlad the opportunity to be undisputed world heavyweighgt champion. I can understand where the theory came from after the Sanders fight but it was actually Sanders that opted to face Vitali and since then I think Wlad has basically shown that its not really the case by unifying 3 of the titles and taking on more ranked opposition.



i didnt realise that about sanders, but even still it was nice that wlad didnt have to face him again because of his brother beating him. i wouldnt use byrd as a similar example as there was a good 6 years between those fights and the defeat was hardly the same as wlads to sanders. like others have said vitali was the number one heavyweight at this time then retired to move aside and give wlad his chance, very unlikely that wlad would be regarded higher than him if vitali stuck around beating similar fighters to wlads record. and if he didnt retire he would have always been in his brothers shadow during this period, theres not a win out there that could have propelled him above, unless of course vitali would have been beaten which was very unlikely. all things that wlad had no control over of course so is harsh on him but still true imo.

but vitali did retire whether or not for his brothers sake we dont know but i do believe it was a factor and nothing else being out thier for vitali. so it does go against him i suppose which then only leads me to the head to head. in which i can only see a vitali win. think some people do give wlad to much credit sometimes for his improved defence. i often see just jab then grab and he's alowwed to get away with it bering often the home fighter. this with his size wearing down the smaller fighters has been his blueprint to alot of his victorys all of which wouldnt work against vitali imo. wlad hasnt had to face any decent heavyweight around the same size, while withg vitali we have at least the lewis fight in which to judge him. wlad is all about keeping his distance using his range because of his size advantages but he wouldnt have any against vitali. prime for prime expect vitali to get to him and stop him

Wlad beat Byrd the fight right after Vitali lost to him, but he fought him again a few years later. It actually happened before the Sanders fights although I would agree that the nature of the two defeats were very different.

I dont really believe that Wlad has got to where he is now through favours from Vitali or Vitali retirement. I mean on the one hand there are people saying that Wlad benefitted from Vitali taking care of opponents for him and on the other hand people saying Vitali retired to let his brother have a turn as champion. I cant really both. I dont think its either for what its worth.

Theres obviously a benefit factor for both brothers not facing each other to some extent. But its also worth considering that Wlad is a good 5 years younger than Vitali and they both have had different peaks. Its fair to say that even in the event the were not brothers and had to fight that theres still every chance they both end up as the top heavyweight in the last decade. It would just be a different times.

Lewis retired in 2003. From 2003-2007 I think Vitali was the best heavyweight in the world and would definately see him beating Wlad in that time frame, assuming Vitali didnt retire.

From 2008-2009 I think its becomes hard to say and is a bit of a pickem. Wlad is coming into his peak, Vitali is coming into decline. In this period I think its a coin toss on who would win.

From 2010-present I think Wlad is the better of the two and would favour him to outpoint Vitali.

So even if they were rivals I still think both end up being world champions, probably undisputed ones at that. Vitali the stronger earlier in the decade but Wlad as the natural successor to either usurp an older Vitali or take over if Vitali retired.

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Post by Strongback Tue 17 Apr 2012, 6:58 pm

To answer those who are pointing out the frivality of conspiriousy theories:

Wlad is the fighter that is collecting the belts, Vitali has one.

It would seem that Wlad is the brother chosen to collect the belts. When Vitali retires Wlad, I am sure, will manage to pick up the WBC belt and tuly be the undisputed HW king.

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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Tue 17 Apr 2012, 7:07 pm

Wlad is the better imo. Vitali has the better chin and may be a bit tougher but Wlad has a terrific defence, fast combinations, great footwork. If Wlad had Vitalis chin he'd be one of the greatest heavyweights of all time.
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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue 17 Apr 2012, 7:14 pm

Lacks the variety to be up there with the best, has a good jab and a good right cross but lacks any real inside game and has a fairly poor killer instinct. I seem to repeat myself all the time but his attributes seem exaggerated by the poor quality of his opposition.

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Post by azania Tue 17 Apr 2012, 7:50 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Lacks the variety to be up there with the best, has a good jab and a good right cross but lacks any real inside game and has a fairly poor killer instinct. I seem to repeat myself all the time but his attributes seem exaggerated by the poor quality of his opposition.

Sounds like you're describing Lennox Lewis also.

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Post by monty junior Tue 17 Apr 2012, 10:09 pm

[quote="manos de piedra"][quote="compelling and rich"]
manos de piedra wrote:
compelling and rich wrote:ive gone for vitali, while i would agree with others that wlad has some better wins on his cv he has also the more defeats and poor defeats at that. vitali has only lewis on a cut and a injury. his performance agaisnt a old lewis is still better performance than anything wlad has done. lets not forget that if vitali wasnt around to step in for his younger brother after every defeat and beat them for him then wlad might well have alot more defeats.


Lewis retired in 2003. From 2003-2007 I think Vitali was the best heavyweight in the world and would definately see him beating Wlad in that time frame, assuming Vitali didnt retire.


Sorry but wasn't Vitali retired from 2004, so he was the best heavyweight in the world for three years when he was at home playing with his kid's and not boxing?

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Post by manos de piedra Tue 17 Apr 2012, 10:24 pm

[quote="monty junior"][quote="manos de piedra"]
compelling and rich wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:
compelling and rich wrote:ive gone for vitali, while i would agree with others that wlad has some better wins on his cv he has also the more defeats and poor defeats at that. vitali has only lewis on a cut and a injury. his performance agaisnt a old lewis is still better performance than anything wlad has done. lets not forget that if vitali wasnt around to step in for his younger brother after every defeat and beat them for him then wlad might well have alot more defeats.


Lewis retired in 2003. From 2003-2007 I think Vitali was the best heavyweight in the world and would definately see him beating Wlad in that time frame, assuming Vitali didnt retire.


Sorry but wasn't Vitali retired from 2004, so he was the best heavyweight in the world for three years when he was at home playing with his kid's and not boxing?

Yes thats why I included the disclaimer of assuming he didnt retire.

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Post by monty junior Wed 18 Apr 2012, 2:04 am

Vitali was only the best heavyweight in 2004 imo, especially since 2006 Wladimir has really came in to his own.

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Post by manos de piedra Wed 18 Apr 2012, 9:27 am

My point was really to illustrate that the two fighters dont have corresponding peaks, in response to the claim that Wlad has been somewhat fortunate to have Vitali watching his back or taking a break from the sport "allowng" him to be a champion. I dont neccessarily think this is the case.

They are about 5 years apart in age and respective peaks if they were not brothers the timing of a potential fight between the two would be a massive factor. Earlier favours Vitali, later favours Wlad. Wlad benefitted earlier in his career from not having to face Vitali, but likewise Vitali benefits now from not having to fight Wlad (who I think would beat this 40y old version). But were they not brothers I think the liklihood is you would have to seperate reigns. Vitali circa 2003 - 2007 (assuming he didnt take a break) and probably Wlad 2007 - present. There would be an overlap period in between around the 2007/8 mark where I think the fight is a bit of a pickem.

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