Irish and Welsh contrast?

First topic message reminder :

Ulster and Leinster are in the Heineken Cup Final. Munster reached the quarter-finals. Leinster will win the Celtic League. A successful year for Irish club sides, but the question is, why does this success not translate at an international level? And conversely, the Welsh have struggled with their club sides for some time now but seem to forge successful international teams regularly. Why are they so poor at club level?

Funnily enough I just saw this.

Lydiate believes Irish must play with freedom if provincial success is to be replicated in green

I think Lydiate agrees with me

rodders wrote:Have we worked this one out yet guys? ....

Yeah rodders to be honest I don't know why I am getting sucked into this. This is going in circles and it is getting rather tiresome. I think I have said all that needs to be said. I just hope that after Kidney goes, Ireland will prove all the doubters totally wrong.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Funnily enough I just saw this.

Lydiate believes Irish must play with freedom if provincial success is to be replicated in green

I think Lydiate agrees with me

Cracker!

I accept their talent, Spence and Cave I think are very good, but none are international standard!!!

If your talking Mcfadden he was very poor, Norths bosh aside he had a few very awkward performances, and remains a question mark as to wether he can step up.

There isn't an international quality centre in Ireland at present, thats probably why Kidneys playing with the idea of Bowe at 13!

Also I get the feeling that you are the type of fan that listens to hype and only notices the flair elements of players game (no offence)
Falatau was top tackler at the World cup, Hari had a poor 6N, Picamoles is a monster but useless in other facets, Parisse plays like a centre, and Morgan was good when not under any real pressure, plus you thing ball carriers like SOB, Mahony and Ferris (to a lesser extent) are complete players.

Rogue

Is that Dan lydiate?

thebluesmancometh wrote:I accept their talent, Spence and Cave I think are very good, but none are international standard!!!

If your talking Mcfadden he was very poor, Norths bosh aside he had a few very awkward performances, and remains a question mark as to wether he can step up.

There isn't an international quality centre in Ireland at present, thats probably why Kidneys playing with the idea of Bowe at 13!

Also I get the feeling that you are the type of fan that listens to hype and only notices the flair elements of players game (no offence)
Falatau was top tackler at the World cup, Hari had a poor 6N, Picamoles is a monster but useless in other facets, Parisse plays like a centre, and Morgan was good when not under any real pressure, plus you thing ball carriers like SOB, Mahony and Ferris (to a lesser extent) are complete players.

Cave especially has been one of the best 13s in the HEC, so why wouldn't he be international standard? Just because you say so? He has proved he is more than capable against some of the best 13s in europe. And clearly I was referring to Earls, who was the starting 13 for Ireland the entire tournament.. I do wonder if you actually watched Ireland play any games apart from the welsh one..

You say I listen to hype, yet go on to argue that the reason Faletau was better than those guys in the 6 nations was for being top tackler in the world cup? What has that got to do with the 6 nations? The fact you say SOB, O'Mahony and Ferris are just ball carriers and not complete players makes me realise how little you have actually seen of any of those guys. At all. All 3 are very smart and intelligent players. They each offer a lot more than the likes of Lydiate. In what way is Lydiate a more complete player for example? Or Warburton or Faletau?

As for your comments on Picamoles AND Parisse.. *facepalm*

Have you not seen Picamole's offloading game?? And the amount of work that Parisse gets through? My word. You say I am the type of fan who only listens to hype and sees the flair of the game, yet you do realise you have said that all you notice of Parisse, Picamoles, Ferris, O'Mahony and O'Brien is their ball carrying? You certainly haven't watched the same guys I have.

So Cave is international quality because he has had a decent season at club level? really? An international quality player has been recognised as talented and has a number of caps and performed against the best. He may become international standard, but that remains to be seen.

Earls played just 3 games for Ireland this tourny at 13 if I remember correctly, and it certainly was Mcfadden who North ran over and offloaded for a try! I'm starting to wonder if you actually watch Ireland play!!

I didn't claim Falatau played better than any of them, but in a GS winning team, and in a backrow that outperformed all before it his unit was better than any of them. I simply gave you reasons why these players weren't very good this year, Picamoles didn't even play very much. If Ferris is so smart how come he gave away the game losing penalty with a very soft 'tip tackle'. Wether it was or wasn't it was still a dull tackle to take the risk at that stage of the game. It isn't the first time he's done that either.

What has SOB offered Ireland since he came on the scene, monstrous carrying that is now swallowed up comfortably enough, he does little at the breakdown, has a tendancy to switch off defencively, and can make silly decisions with ball in hand. Ferris has begun to let his poor international form effect him, and suddenly drifts wider and wider looking for smaller players to carry into, this presents a huge problem at the breakdown when Ireland get turned over, he is not there to help, and when they get turned over is out of position.
If all 3 are so smart they wouldn't keep carrying into numbers on their own and get isolated. Re watch the English game I dare you!!!

I have never once said Any of the welsh boys were more complete players than their Irish counterparts, go back and read my posts, but as a unit the Welsh boys are far superior, and thats what counts. If I was picking a Lions team I would have Lydiate and Warbs with Ferris or SOB at 8.

When did I say anything about North running through anyone? Earls played 4 games for Ireland at 13. McFadden played the first game as Earls became a father that week and his child got sick. As for the rest of your comments, I am going to leave you to your thoughts. There is so much stuff there I don't agree with, I don't really know where to start.

OK lets break it down slightly...

Do you beleive the Irish back row are doing their jobs
a) perfectly
b)adequate
c)poorly

Is the Irish back row balanced or uneven?

Is the Irish backrow missing any facet to their play?

Granted it isn't all their fault, with little carrying threat from the tight 5 and an impotant midfield (Earls pace destroying Italy aside) they are struggling. Also being on the back foot at the scrum doesn't help.

I understand your not going to think the same as me, but in reality there has to be a reason Ireland are losing games, and have now lost 3 in a row to Wales, including a weakened Wales team in Dublin?

2 in a row, you cheated for the 1st one .

We've lost to Wales because Wales have a better side. Full stop. A better scrum, an excellent backrow and more dangerous backline.

That does not change the fact that Ireland are badly underperforming based on the players available, both in terms of performances and results .

Hands up to the first count, but in their defence, Rees and Phillips are too stupid to cheat on purpose, it's far more likely they didn't know the rule and got lucky.

I think with the gaps in the first team Ireland have, the top players such as the back row are struggling to plug them. Darcy was a yard off this season, Earls and Mcfadden lacking, and the stand up tackle tactic to turn ball over trying to negate the fact theres no fetcher in the team is nullified too easily by 2 simple things...

Carrying lower into contact (Wales have done this very well v Ireland)

Actually being able to compete in the scrum.

Declan kidney Irish 15:

15. Rob Kearney
14. Tommy bowe
13. Brian odriscoll
12. Darcy
11. Keith earls
10. Jonathan sexton
9. Murray
8. Heaslip
7. Obrien
6. Ferris
5. Oconnel
4. Ocalaghan
3.ross
2.best
1.healy

Would be interested to know what changes you would make to this team as Declan kidney has been widely criticised for being too conservative.

There been alot of talk about the Irish props. Theres a few points I'd like to make. Proping was completely ignored until 4 or 5 years back in Ireland. The England match showed up the lack of quality there.

Behind the scenes there has been alot of work put in to uncover new props. Every province have a few Irish tightheads and looseheads coming through. They're all in the development stage but in the next year or 2 you can expect to see a few of them come through. Loughney and Fitzpatrick are 2 props who are coming on well and could be pushing for a place in the squad for New Zealand. By the next world cup every province will have quality Irish props.

I also think Cian Healy is much better than some posters here think or like to think he is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIyQTGbSfEc

Me personally...

Healy
Best
Ross (really wish there was someone else!)
Ryan
POC
Ferris
Henry
SOB
Reddan
Sexton
Earls
Mcfadden
Cave
Bowe
Kearney

Would need some nurturing, and probably wouldn't be succesfull right away, but long term it is the way to go. There are a number of players who are just filling positions though, Ross, Ryan, Reddan, Mcfadden etc who are short term players until better can be found

You lot still rambling on with this crap - Move on it's all been said, Ireland are clearly under-performing and will continue to do so until they replace their coach and then and only then will some of their fans realise that they are still not as good as they were 5 years ago due to the lack of personnell and the ageing world class stars that have served them so well - Simples

It is actually quite simple and there's no need to over-complicate it.

Each of the Irish provinces plays with a coherent gameplan that brings the best out of the players and is tailored to suit their strengths. All fifteen players know and commit to the gameplan and play with a great deal of self-confidence in themselves and their teammates.

Ireland are the exact opposite; no consistent gameplan or style of play, coaches trying to shove players into roles they are uncomfortable with, players don't know what they are supposed to be going so are not confident and play tentatively.

Ireland actually have a better selection of players to pick from than five years ago but we need the right gameplan, the right tactics and the same kind of unity and passion as we have in our provinces to draw upon. Until we have that, we will keep failing.

Wales are basically the same, but opposite. Everything I've said about Ireland could be said about their regions and everything I've said about our provinces could be said about their national side.

I recommend reading this blog by Whiff of Cordite if you're interested in the matter;

http://whiffofcordite.com/2012/05/09/the-great-heineken-cup-swindle/

Rory_Gallagher wrote:3 times out Ireland have lost against Wales, but only one of those games did you actually play Lydiate, Warburton and Faletau, the backrow that is apparently miles better than the irish one. In fact, that gives more bulk to my theory as to why the welsh backrow is working for them. The big running welsh backs give so much go forward ball, that the backrow has much less work to do. That is the welsh game plan. They play to their strengths.

Actually, they played agains you together for one and a half games, the last game Tuperic played the second half against you, so when you say that Warburton makes a difference to our back row, did Tuperic do the same when he played ?

Lydiate didn't play in Dublin. His unseen work is so unseen, no one seems to notice if he's there or not.....

Apparantly he was motm against us too.....

I think the fact that Wales can play different back row combinations (often missing out 1st choice players), against the more settled Irish one, and still out perform them, speaks volumes

Or it could suggest that the backrow is not the reason wales are winning.....

Or that our players are just so much more cohesive as a squad over all, it doesn't matter so much who we start, as they play as a team and don't rely on individuals

..and if that were the case then we'd all be in agreement and can start pointing our collective fingers at the IRFU and Kidney rather than having circular discussions about who has the best players in what positions......

Or it could be that the Irish backrow are not as good as some of the Irish posters on here think they are, and we can play any one of Ryan Jones, Tuperic, Warburton, Lydiate, Faletau and still win.

Two bald men fighting over a comb.

That would be Chilcott and Alex King then

LordDowlais wrote:Or it could be that the Irish backrow are not as good as some of the Irish posters on here think they are, and we can play any one of Ryan Jones, Tuperic, Warburton, Lydiate, Faletau and still win.

You could play Michael Owen at no 8 thats the point. Your backrow, Warburton apart aren't that important.

Take Roberts, Adam Jones, Phillips and Priestland out and Wales would really struggle.

RubyGuby wrote: You lot still rambling on with this crap - Move on it's all been said, Ireland are clearly under-performing and will continue to do so until they replace their coach and then and only then will some of their fans realise that they are still not as good as they were 5 years ago due to the lack of personnell and the ageing world class stars that have served them so well - Simples

Ireland have far more talent than 5 years ago. I think some people will realise that when we get a new coach.

Rodders - the only two I agree with you on that is Adam Jones and Priestland (as was proven in the QF against France and 3rd place match against Australia)

rugbydreamer wrote:Rodders - the only two I agree with you on that is Adam Jones and Priestland (as was proven in the QF against France and 3rd place match against Australia)

Between you and me dreamer I'm only on the wind up ....I do think they are key to how Wales play though.

rodders wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Rodders - the only two I agree with you on that is Adam Jones and Priestland (as was proven in the QF against France and 3rd place match against Australia)

Between you and me dreamer I'm only on the wind up ....I do think they are key to how Wales play though.

aye, I got that you were

They are key though, for sure, each team has key players like it

rugbydreamer wrote:I think the fact that Wales can play different back row combinations (often missing out 1st choice players), against the more settled Irish one, and still out perform them, speaks volumes

I agree, it's the difference between three players who are well drilled, have clearly defined roles and are committed to performing them and three (very talented) individuals who are sent out without the same level of preparation.

Success in rugby is rarely decided by individual talent alone- coaching and tactics goes a long, long way.

It is the way that Irleand play as much as the people who play - that is down to coaching.

As to scrumdowns team - Cave, POM, Ryan, Reddan should all be in so I reckon Kidney's team has 4 errors.

Also bench is wrong as it s/b Fitzpatrick not Court, Tuohy should be there but isn't.

geoff998rugby wrote:It is the way that Irleand play as much as the people who play - that is down to coaching.

That's the point I make in my numerous long winded anti-Kidney monologues. But I'm gonna stop doing that now. Made my point many times. Just hope his contract isn't renewed. I'd be surprised if it was.

thebluesmancometh wrote:
Plus we took your scrum apart, as did England, and SA and NZ have done it in recent times.

You're either misinformed or just Wumming,the scrums in that match were very much equal and I'd love if you could point out these matches where S.A. and NZ have taken our scrum apart because they don't exist.

Gordy wrote:Ulster and Leinster are in the Heineken Cup Final. Munster reached the quarter-finals. Leinster will win the Celtic League. A successful year for Irish club sides, but the question is, why does this success not translate at an international level? And conversely, the Welsh have struggled with their club sides for some time now but seem to forge successful international teams regularly. Why are they so poor at club level?

I haven't bothered reading the gazillion posts since the article was written, I have a 2 "word" answer...



Declan Kidney.



Don't mention it.

PJHolybloke wrote:

Gordy wrote:Ulster and Leinster are in the Heineken Cup Final. Munster reached the quarter-finals. Leinster will win the Celtic League. A successful year for Irish club sides, but the question is, why does this success not translate at an international level? And conversely, the Welsh have struggled with their club sides for some time now but seem to forge successful international teams regularly. Why are they so poor at club level?

I haven't bothered reading the gazillion posts since the article was written, I have a 2 "word" answer...



Declan Kidney.



Don't mention it.

We need a nail on head emoticon

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:
Plus we took your scrum apart, as did England, and SA and NZ have done it in recent times.

You're either misinformed or just Wumming,the scrums in that match were very much equal and I'd love if you could point out these matches where S.A. and NZ have taken our scrum apart because they don't exist.

Agreed he's a wummer.

PJHolybloke wrote:

Gordy wrote:Ulster and Leinster are in the Heineken Cup Final. Munster reached the quarter-finals. Leinster will win the Celtic League. A successful year for Irish club sides, but the question is, why does this success not translate at an international level? And conversely, the Welsh have struggled with their club sides for some time now but seem to forge successful international teams regularly. Why are they so poor at club level?

I haven't bothered reading the gazillion posts since the article was written, I have a 2 "word" answer...



Declan Kidney.



Don't mention it.

Aw, this is a beautiful moment. Pitty your International squad don't stand shoulder to shoulder like you guys

Kidney is the problem?

Sullivan was the problem before that?

Gatland was the problem before that?

YAWN!

Right then, we'll start with NZ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z13Y7GJyeo

Then on to England...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXmC_fku15Y

Maybe you should watch the neational team train a bit, see if you know whats going wrong...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJd7gQnKglM

Oh look at that.. you posted the NZ game and who is at number 3? Tom Court. You post the England game, now we all know who came on at 3 in that game too don't we? Tom Court, the loosehead. Really good examples mate

Classic as Rory said you post examples where Ulster's 4th choice TH is playing TH for Ireland.
Who made that choice - Kidney.

A postion where the only TH who has any International experience, other than Ross, is Buckley. Who made that choice - Kidney.

Andress, Fitzpatrick, Hagan, Archer, Macklin etc do not have 1 second of full International experience between. Who made that decision - Kidney.

Are we weak at TH - YES
Could we be better prepared if the coach had not put all his eggs in one basket - YES
Could be better prepared if the coach didn't continue to persist with playing a LH who does not have the technique to play TH as his TH back up - YES

We are in a bad position a TH but make no mistake the myopic selection policy has made it far worse than it need be.

Another thing to add - for all the Kidney supporters, or welsh fans who think we are making excuses for our players.. do you actually think Kidney is getting the best out of these players? Do you not see the contrast of styles between Leinster and Ireland?

I don't think these people are Kidney supporters Rory, just on the wind up mate .

thebluesmancometh wrote:Kidney is the problem?

Sullivan was the problem before that?

Gatland was the problem before that?

YAWN!

Right then, we'll start with NZ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z13Y7GJyeo

Then on to England...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXmC_fku15Y

Maybe you should watch the neational team train a bit, see if you know whats going wrong...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJd7gQnKglM

So where's the games against N.Z. and S.A. that our scrum was beaten in?You've shown 2 examples of isolated scrums but if you go through those matches the England game is the only one our scrum was hammered in and everyone has acknowledged that already.

Maybe you should try watching a full match and see if you know what's going wrong.

In all fairness I am partly on the wind up...

But being serious, the scrum is not a 1 man show. It's 8 men, it's the hit, it's the chase, it's the then jockey for position.

Can anyone tell me who the hit is initiated by?
Can anyone tell me who is the controller of the scrum?
Can anyone tell me the most important part of the scrum?
Can anyone tell me what the scrum is meant to do?

Not being patronising boys, well I am but it is to prove a point. You all seem to think the scrum is still about the TH being the rock and LH attacking the opposition, that mentality went out nearly a decade ago.

I guarentee you that Jon Hayes, Buckley and co were as strong as any prop on the planet, well I know they were because I saw training sessions with them, but they couldn't scrummage.

I like Kidney, as I did O Sullivan, and Gatland before that, and so did you lot when things were going right, GS under your belt things were looking good, except they weren't.

Now key players are missing, or should I say old, there are huge gaps in the Ireland side that just cannot be filled. You cannot throw a teenage, or early 20's prop into international rugby, infact a lot of props in their mid 20's aren't capable enough yet. They need time to fully mature, ensure they're physically up to scratch and won't get physically or psychologically scarred.

You can play LH's at TH, you can play Hookers at tight head if need be, at international level where there is huge pressure to win every single game, and after Irelands GS and undefeated year every game well you can't afford an inexperienced prop on the bench!!!

Kidney is a little carefull in his selection, but so is every coach at international level, name me one that isn't???

Gatland.

Lancaster

No chance!!!

He decided on 13 established Ospreys his first 6N game as opposed to numerous talented youngsters proving they were ready, his mindset there was safety first.

Then he went on a 25 game losing streak, almost losing to Italy, and Fiji in the process by sticking with the same team!!

Oh and his gameplan is based around what? Edwards defencive systems, no risks ball in hand, kick and chase anywhere when not inside the opposing teams 22, very safe gameplan!

Gatland is proffitting from what he has at his disposal, the young stars like North, Cuthbert, Davies are easy picks in the backline because of their size, Lydiate was excelling for 2/3 seasons before he got a real chance, Warbs was a lucky timing as Gatland couldn't convince Williams to play on, which reminds me, Gatlands first order of business... convince Williams to come out of retirement.