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Rugby Bosses discuss English Rugby in the Telegraph

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Post by maestegmafia Mon 14 May 2012, 11:05 pm

"Exeter have done really well this season but they’re not losing 15 blokes in every Test window."

"If you could have 45 blokes that were all English, all world-class you would have them. But we don’t."

"I think the academy set-up has improved massively. You do not need to go overseas to get journeymen to fill the squad in the way that you used to."

"We four clubs also pride ourselves on having a strong A side. Look at Bath. They didn’t win a game in the A league and that’s unbelievable."

"My experience of the past three years is that the infrastructure that surrounds England is not as good as it is at the clubs."

Mick Cleary - "It’s always been said in New Zealand that everything is geared to helping the All Blacks prosper. I’m not sure that’s the same here, is it?"

Mark McCall (Saracens) It’s not our job to do that, is it?


Good read, Enjoy...!


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9260636/Its-not-our-job-to-make-sure-England-prosper-say-leading-club-coaches.html

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Post by maestegmafia Tue 15 May 2012, 7:56 am

Richard Cockerill - "I don’t dislike Mark, I just dislike Saracens!"

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Post by propdavid_london Tue 15 May 2012, 9:31 am

Great read.
Would have been amusing last year to have had Venter in there too.

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Post by beshocked Tue 15 May 2012, 10:09 am

Not the greatest picture.

Cockerill looks like a naughty school child who has been brought in for detention.

Mccall is asleep

Mallinder looks like he's nodding off too.

O Shea has a glazed look.

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Post by doctor_grey Tue 15 May 2012, 10:50 am

Very good read. A bit of a puff piece. But, they all seem on the exact samepage, which, considering the varied topics, means a lot.

No one diasgreed when Cockerill said the following, which is telling:
"Players want to play for their country. My only concern is that they get looked after when they are there. My experience of the past three years is that the infrastructure that surrounds England is not as good as it is at the clubs. That’s a frustration which I hope will get rectified under Stuart Lancaster."

Somehting which has been obvious for a long time now.


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Post by maestegmafia Tue 15 May 2012, 12:06 pm

I admire them for speaking their minds. Particularly Cockerill.

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Post by thomh Tue 15 May 2012, 1:01 pm

I remember Cockerill saying at some point during 2010-2011 (when things were going well), that the England set-up was now a place where players came back improved, whereas until recently that hadn't been the case.

I imagine that the world cup set his opinion on that back a couple of years. Hopefully the new coaching team will be good enough that it isn't the case now.

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Post by maestegmafia Wed 16 May 2012, 8:36 am

thomh wrote:I remember Cockerill saying at some point during 2010-2011 (when things were going well), that the England set-up was now a place where players came back improved, whereas until recently that hadn't been the case.

I imagine that the world cup set his opinion on that back a couple of years. Hopefully the new coaching team will be good enough that it isn't the case now.

You have to wonder whether a bloke like Richard Cockerill has international coaching ambitions too?

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Post by thomh Thu 17 May 2012, 9:35 am

He said after the world cup that he didn't want the job now and didn't think the'yd want him to do it anyway. I'm sure he'll want it at some point though.

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Post by bathmad Thu 17 May 2012, 10:46 am

beshocked wrote:Not the greatest picture.

Cockerill looks like a naughty school child who has been brought in for detention.

Mccall is asleep

Mallinder looks like he's nodding off too.

O Shea has a glazed look
.

Talking to Mick Cleary, I'm not surprised!

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Post by geoff998rugby Thu 17 May 2012, 10:51 am

Why would 2 Irishmen be in the slightest bit interested/concerned in how many English players at their clubs ?

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Post by HammerofThunor Thu 17 May 2012, 11:06 am

Because they want the fans behind them and they're more responsive to a team they associate with (this doesn't mean they have to be English but it helps, more important is the feeling they'll bleed for the clubs). Also for the extra money the RFU give them. And also because the owners may want it. There are a few reasons.

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Post by Portnoy Thu 17 May 2012, 11:31 am

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 17 May 2012, 11:46 am

Why would 2 Irishmen be in the slightest bit interested/concerned in how many English players at their clubs ?

You say that but O'Shea has developed a nearly all English Quins team from the foundations that Richards left him. Quins aren't short of cash he didn't have to go all English but he has chosen to do that. McCall has also increased the English contingent at Sarries since taking over from Venter. You might wonder why they bother but they clearly do. Perhaps it is about developing that core that love the club, Leicester, Munster and Leinster all achieved success because of a core of local players that were very talented but also playing for their mates and for their club.

Not the greatest picture

Mallinder and Cockerill sat as far away from each other as possible...

Poor Connor called it wrong though didn't he:

"It’ll be brilliant. Tough up front, and we know how dangerous they are out wide. I’ll pick out George Pisi, what a season he’s had for Saints in the centre. This weekend will be a classic."

You have to wonder whether a bloke like Richard Cockerill has international coaching ambitions too?

Given that he was dumped by England after he squared up to his opposite number mid Haka and is probably the most out spoken DoR in the AP I can't imagine ambitions will matter. The RFU will not want the rough and ready ex-furniture restorer put in charge, he's as far from the blazer brigade as it's capable of being.

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Post by HERSH Thu 17 May 2012, 12:18 pm

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Post by LondonTiger Thu 17 May 2012, 1:00 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Not the greatest picture

Mallinder and Cockerill sat as far away from each other as possible...


Able to kick each other under the table though.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 17 May 2012, 1:33 pm

Just a good job the assistant coaches weren't brought in as well LT. West and Cockerill would have no doubt scrapped again and O'Connor is hardly the retiring type, Cockers reckons that MOC get's more worked up than he does!

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Post by geoff998rugby Thu 17 May 2012, 3:03 pm

O'Shea and McCall will be motivated by what is best for their clubs.

Whether or not a player is English will be incidental

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Post by yappysnap Thu 17 May 2012, 4:51 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:O'Shea and McCall will be motivated by what is best for their clubs.

Whether or not a player is English will be incidental

Yes but what you seem to be missing is that having English players is best for their clubs.

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Post by maestegmafia Thu 17 May 2012, 9:21 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Just a good job the assistant coaches weren't brought in as well LT. West and Cockerill would have no doubt scrapped again and O'Connor is hardly the retiring type, Cockers reckons that MOC get's more worked up than he does!

West vs Cockers must be mates? They were both Tigers?

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Post by maestegmafia Thu 17 May 2012, 11:24 pm

Lancaster gets a grilling from Cockerill

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9273254/Leicester-furious-with-Stuart-Lancaster-for-divulging-privileged-information-about-Toby-Floods-injury.html

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Post by HammerofThunor Fri 18 May 2012, 8:46 am

I'm pretty sure that the EPS agreement gives medical control over the players to the England camp but it was out of order of Lancaster to be talking about stuff like that warning

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 18 May 2012, 9:32 am

O'Shea and McCall will be motivated by what is best for their clubs.

Whether or not a player is English will be incidental

How is that any different to any other DoR? AP chairman won't turn around and say "yeah ok, it was a crap season but I'll let you off because all the team is English". Nope it's all about results. The AP is about the AP it's not the Rabo which is a feeder series for the national teams and the teams HEC chances.

West vs Cockers must be mates? They were both Tigers?

Hmmm, it's been said before that out breaks of fisty cuffs were not uncommon amongst some of the players in that era of Tigers team (there's a famous Johnno vs Moody and Cockers vs Healey stories) and West vs Cockerill is rumoured to have happened more than once. Any friendship was soured following the Calum Clark cheap shot on Hawkins in the LV Cup Final, Cockers was unimpressed and gave Clark more than a little talking to on the pitch after the final whistle. Apparently things carried on inside after the game with Clark being told to do one by Hawkins when he came to apologise and Cockers vs West nearly happening again (West asked if Cockers wanted to step outside).

That incident also lead to the bad blood between Mallinder and Cockerill, hence why they've sat at opposite sides of the room from each other.

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Post by beshocked Fri 18 May 2012, 9:40 am

HammerofThunor wrote:I'm pretty sure that the EPS agreement gives medical control over the players to the England camp but it was out of order of Lancaster to be talking about stuff like that warning

How is it out of order from Lancaster? Lancaster wants to know if one of the players he picked is fit and available. Perfectly reasonable in my opinion.

Oh and it was a loaded question from the media to Lancaster about Flood that started this all off.

Just another example of gamesmanship from Cockerill and Leicester. Just be honest about Flood's fitness.

You used gamesmanship in the Leicester-Sarries semi final. Please don't do it again.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 18 May 2012, 9:51 am

How is it out of order from Lancaster?

Because it's giving private medical information to the general public. That is in itself not particularly ethical as any normal person would sue if their doctor did that. That aside Lancaster only discussed a Tigers player, at no point did he also discuss the fitness of Monye or Care for Quins. O'Shea now knows that his team is likely to be facing Ford at 10 and Ford has very different strength and weaknesses to Flood who he will have been expecting to face. O'Shead can now make tactical plans to try and exploit the weaknesses of Ford. Cockers is still in the dark over the Quins 9 though, Care will run and look to play wider and looser than Dickson who will keep it closer and use the forwards more. How does that not give O'Shea a small advantage?

You used gamesmanship in the Leicester-Sarries semi final. Please don't do it again

Salvi and Flood were accessed before the game (optimistically) and then ruled out. They were both there. I'm sure similar will happen before the final, if your best players are fit you want them to be playing.

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Post by beshocked Fri 18 May 2012, 10:01 am

Private medical information? No one still has a clue whether Flood is fit or not. No one knows how serious his injury is.

As I said the media asked a loaded question specifically about Flood.

I think O Shea should divulge information too. Both teams should be completely open.

Salvi and Flood were named in the Leicester-Sarries game but missed out.

You are either fit or you are not.

So you're admitting you'll use gamesmanship in the final too. Fair enough.

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Post by beshocked Fri 18 May 2012, 10:04 am

Also Mike Ford knew his son was starting vs Sarries

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 18 May 2012, 11:30 am

Also Mike Ford knew his son was starting vs Sarries

Everyone had heard the rumours of Ford running the moves in training and pretty knew he'd start if Flood wasn't there but that was all very logical in that Tigers needed a back up plan whilst Flood was waiting for the swelling to go down and the damage to be evidenced.

Mike Ford also kept it between friends and didn't vocalise that he knew his son was likely to start to the national press!

So you're admitting you'll use gamesmanship in the final too. Fair enough

I expect Cockerill to keep his cards close to his chest until the last minute. No point in giving the opposition and advantage ahead of a final.

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Post by HammerofThunor Fri 18 May 2012, 12:32 pm

Of course it's perfectly reasonable for Lancaster to know the fitness of his players. However he shouldn't pass that information on the press. Now that he has he's lost some trust from the DoR of one of the largest contributors of English players. He's going to have to earn it back and it was foolish mistake IMO

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Post by HammerofThunor Fri 18 May 2012, 12:33 pm

Oh and it's as much gamesmanship as clubs not releasing the team details a week in advance.

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Post by beshocked Fri 18 May 2012, 1:57 pm

True Sam. No point in being honest.

HammerofThunor you don't seem to understand. Lancaster was asked a loaded question by the media. Something like:

Media Man: So Lancaster what's the injury status of Flood?

Lancaster: That's a very interesting question I don't know. I'll find out. Obviously there is no point picking Flood if he's not available.

Lancaster ringing up Cockerill: Could you please tell me the status of Flood's injury?

Cockerill: No you f$%^ing 5&%$er. It's £$£%^&ing important for Leicester that the $%^ing Quins don't have a ££%^%^ing clue who are they playing. You better $^&*ing apologise for asking or I will sue your !"£$.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 18 May 2012, 2:10 pm

Media Man: "So Lancaster what's the injury status of Flood?"

Lancaster should have replied: "His treatment is on going with his club and we are looking forward to having him on the tour to South Africa."

Simples.

Not: "From what we understand we might not make the first test of the tour and I won't take him if he's not 100%. Going to send the physio along tomorrow and he'll tweet updates as he goes."

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Post by beshocked Fri 18 May 2012, 2:53 pm

Sam the difficulty is that Lancaster doesn't know Flood's status.

With all the hype being around Flood's no show at the Leicester - Sarries semi and potential missing out the final, Lancaster's bound to be concerned.

You should be flattered by Lancaster interest in Flood, was probably going to pick him at first choice FH. This whole saga might change his mind.

Why can't Flood just make a public statement to clear things up?

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Post by yappysnap Fri 18 May 2012, 4:49 pm

I really hope Flood is fit...


...After the final

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 18 May 2012, 5:00 pm

Sam the difficulty is that Lancaster doesn't know Flood's status

Well clearly he did because the England physio was making a routine visit that was cancelled. Lancaster would not have been able to make the comments he did without know the fitness of the player and Leicester had no issue with including him in the discussions on Flood's recovery until he started making them available to the public at which time Tigers barred England access.

Why can't Flood just make a public statement to clear things up?

Why should he? Does he even know himself? It's very hard to accurately predict the time scale of bruising and muscle recovery on something like a twisted ankle. It could be a few days it could be a few weeks. I'd imagine he's at Oval park having it accessed periodically whilst trying to do what he can to prepare in the mean time. Suggesting that an inability to categorically prove his fitness prior to the tour will see him left behind is more likely to push him into playing when not 100% in order to fall down the pecking order.

You should be flattered by Lancaster interest in Flood, was probably going to pick him at first choice FH.

Why flattered? Flood has been comfortably the best 10 in the AP in last month and a half. 6 try bonus points in the last 7 games with the only none try bonus point game being when he left the field early. If Lancaster wasn't looking at taking him on the tour he'd be a fool. On top of his good form Flood also ticks all the required boxes; decent goal kicker, international experience, decent kicker from hand, can tackle, isn't going to be knocked about and most of all very good attacking play maker.

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Post by HammerofThunor Fri 18 May 2012, 5:38 pm

beshocked wrote:True Sam. No point in being honest.

HammerofThunor you don't seem to understand. Lancaster was asked a loaded question by the media. Something like:

Media Man: So Lancaster what's the injury status of Flood?

Lancaster: That's a very interesting question I don't know. I'll find out. Obviously there is no point picking Flood if he's not available.

Lancaster ringing up Cockerill: Could you please tell me the status of Flood's injury?

Cockerill: No you f$%^ing 5&%$er. It's £$£%^&ing important for Leicester that the $%^ing Quins don't have a ££%^%^ing clue who are they playing. You better $^&*ing apologise for asking or I will sue your !"£$.

Now you're just being silly. You really don't seem to be able to grasp the idea that the issue is NOT with Lancaster knowing Flood's status but the fact he's released that information to the public.

As for answering the "loaded" question, how about "They're hoping he's going to be fit for the final (semi-final if last week) and we'll see how it goes." It's not hard and if that sort of question threw Lancaster he's going to be in serious trouble over the next few years.

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