Jeff clubs : the impossibility of fighting wars on three fronts

by Portnoy Fri 18 May 2012, 9:50 am

Spare your tears for the Tigers. Dry your eyes and maintain you composure.

Jim Mallinder in a recorded interview spoke yesterday on the beeb http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/18105023 (about 2:30 mins in) about the need for big squads and depth.

Seemingly every big club is going to have to wage battles on three fronts: against each other, against European domestic sides and against their own nation's national interests.

So how are the battles to be won?

The winning secret recipe appears to be
1. to buy in a disproportionate number of foreign (preferably SH) players to withstand the pressures of International windows. Preferably these players should be already tied to a SH nation or have there family tree carefully checked by a professional genealogist for sweet, grey-haired grannies who never happened to mention that they were born in England.

2. Make sure that your club has at least three players of suitable quality for each position. One for injury, one for the club and one for the country. Preferably in reality you will need four to cover emergencies.

3. Once the league and country battles are won, the European competitions should be a piece of cake. Just stay within your budget.

No problem.

Going back to Jim's interview referenced earlier - "beam me up Scotty".

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 18 May 2012, 10:32 am

Portnoy wrote:Spare your tears for the Tigers. Dry your eyes and maintain you composure.

Jim Mallinder in a recorded interview spoke yesterday on the beeb http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/18105023 (about 2:30 mins in) about the need for big squads and depth.

Seemingly every big club is going to have to wage battles on three fronts: against each other, against European domestic sides and against their own nation's national interests.

So how are the battles to be won?

The winning secret recipe appears to be
1. to buy in a disproportionate number of foreign (preferably SH) players to withstand the pressures of International windows. Preferably these players should be already tied to a SH nation or have there family tree carefully checked by a professional genealogist for sweet, grey-haired grannies who never happened to mention that they were born in England.

2. Make sure that your club has at least three players of suitable quality for each position. One for injury, one for the club and one for the country. Preferably in reality you will need four to cover emergencies.

3. Once the league and country battles are won, the European competitions should be a piece of cake. Just stay within your budget.

No problem.

Going back to Jim's interview referenced earlier - "beam me up Scotty".

Why? I don't understand that one Headscratch

by formerly known as Sam Fri 18 May 2012, 10:33 am

It's very difficult but should a side stay relatively injury free then it's possible. McCall of Sarries seemed pessimisitc in the Telegraph interview mind, stating that if Sarries had beaten Clermont they'd possibly have had four back to back play off games all of which would have been high intensity. Exeter away to guarentee a play off spot, AP Semi, HEC final and then AP Final. That kind of run in has got to take it out of the players.

The PRL/FFR suggestion to move the HEC Final to earlier in the year (closer to the LV Cup Final date) is really an excellent idea. Make sure there's no clashes.

by caoimhincentre Fri 18 May 2012, 10:36 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:It's very difficult but should a side stay relatively injury free then it's possible. McCall of Sarries seemed pessimisitc in the Telegraph interview mind, stating that if Sarries had beaten Clermont they'd possibly have had four back to back play off games all of which would have been high intensity. Exeter away to guarentee a play off spot, AP Semi, HEC final and then AP Final. That kind of run in has got to take it out of the players.

The PRL/FFR suggestion to move the HEC Final to earlier in the year (closer to the LV Cup Final date) is really an excellent idea. Make sure there's no clashes.

He was complaining about 4 back to back games of high intensity. Surely thats what all the big teams want to be doing at the business end of the season.

by Portnoy Fri 18 May 2012, 10:45 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Portnoy wrote:Spare your tears for the Tigers. Dry your eyes and maintain you composure.

Jim Mallinder in a recorded interview spoke yesterday on the beeb http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/18105023 (about 2:30 mins in) about the need for big squads and depth.

Seemingly every big club is going to have to wage battles on three fronts: against each other, against European domestic sides and against their own nation's national interests.

So how are the battles to be won?

The winning secret recipe appears to be
1. to buy in a disproportionate number of foreign (preferably SH) players to withstand the pressures of International windows. Preferably these players should be already tied to a SH nation or have there family tree carefully checked by a professional genealogist for sweet, grey-haired grannies who never happened to mention that they were born in England.

2. Make sure that your club has at least three players of suitable quality for each position. One for injury, one for the club and one for the country. Preferably in reality you will need four to cover emergencies.

3. Once the league and country battles are won, the European competitions should be a piece of cake. Just stay within your budget.

No problem.

Going back to Jim's interview referenced earlier - "beam me up Scotty".
Why? I don't understand that one

I can't for the life of me understand why you are scratching your head As. Have you got nits?

The disproportionate effects of the IWs and their affects on the table.

I really must set aside a few number crunching hours to honour my promise to analyse the effect on the Jeff of the RWC/IWs...

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 18 May 2012, 10:47 am

Portnoy wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Portnoy wrote:Spare your tears for the Tigers. Dry your eyes and maintain you composure.

Jim Mallinder in a recorded interview spoke yesterday on the beeb http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/18105023 (about 2:30 mins in) about the need for big squads and depth.

Seemingly every big club is going to have to wage battles on three fronts: against each other, against European domestic sides and against their own nation's national interests.

So how are the battles to be won?

The winning secret recipe appears to be
1. to buy in a disproportionate number of foreign (preferably SH) players to withstand the pressures of International windows. Preferably these players should be already tied to a SH nation or have there family tree carefully checked by a professional genealogist for sweet, grey-haired grannies who never happened to mention that they were born in England.

2. Make sure that your club has at least three players of suitable quality for each position. One for injury, one for the club and one for the country. Preferably in reality you will need four to cover emergencies.

3. Once the league and country battles are won, the European competitions should be a piece of cake. Just stay within your budget.

No problem.

Going back to Jim's interview referenced earlier - "beam me up Scotty".
Why? I don't understand that one

I can't for the life of me understand why you are scratching your head As. Have you got nits?

The disproportionate effects of the IWs and their affects on the table.

I really must set aside a few number crunching hours to honour my promise to analyse the effect on the Jeff of the RWC/IWs...

Oh yes pls, Portnoy, we're all so looking forward to that Rolling Eyes

by Portnoy Fri 18 May 2012, 11:00 am

As. Why are you disinterested in the affect on the Jeff table caused by international commitments?

we're all so looking forward to that Rolling Eyes

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 18 May 2012, 11:01 am

Portnoy wrote:As. Why are you disinterested in the affect on the Jeff table caused by international commitments?

we're all so looking forward to that Rolling Eyes

Could it be because everyone knows about it already without your harping on about it the whole time? Hence we have the playoffs to mitigate the effect

by Portnoy Fri 18 May 2012, 11:12 am

OK. As. I'll now find the time to do the analysis and just present the raw, factual results.

I'll publish them later.

I probably will be wasting my time and effort. But it will be off my chest.

by red_stag Fri 18 May 2012, 11:14 am

Portnoy wrote:OK. As. I'll now find the time to do the analysis and just present the raw, factual results.

I'll publish them later.

I probably will be wasting my time and effort. But it will be off my chest.

Is it not off your chest already?

by Portnoy Fri 18 May 2012, 11:18 am

Rabo sides don't have to wage wars on three fronts Staggy. Their European and national battles are fought separately.

by BoyneRFC Fri 18 May 2012, 11:20 am

Portnoy wrote:Rabo sides don't have to wage wars on three fronts Staggy. Their European and national battles are fought separately.

And where's the problem with that? You mention the need for big squads....

Rotate, man ! Rotate !!!

And no need for English grannies. Just invest in your academy.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 18 May 2012, 11:25 am

He was complaining about 4 back to back games of high intensity. Surely thats what all the big teams want to be doing at the business end of the season.

Well it would have been 5 if you included the Clermont game (had they won it and their semi final). It was just McCall making the point that it is hard for a squad even of Sarries depth to remain competitive for all five games. Hence why Sarries and other top clubs have wanted additional cap space and the PRL are pushing to move the HEC to earlier in the season.

Rotate, man ! Rotate !!!

And no need for English grannies. Just invest in your academy.

He was talking about the avoidance of English grannies, last thing a team need is for their NEQ English player cover to suddenly be called up as well (Cockerill joked Waldrom's value had halved after finding out about his English granny)! The AP have good academies and since the overhaul in the academy system with the RFU's regional academies etc the England age groups have started to prosper. There's a lot of young English players getting experience in the AP and the England under 20s were unfortunate to not retain the 6N this year and perhaps might have done had they not had such rotation due to club commitments.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Fri 18 May 2012, 11:29 am

Portnoy wrote:Rabo sides don't have to wage wars on three fronts Staggy. Their European and national battles are fought separately.

Which doesn't answer Staggy's question Wink

- you could start running courses in evasive answers in interviews for politicians with that one Wink

It's a mildly interesting intellectual exercise to ask if any teams might have made the playoffs if not for IW absences, and if so, would any of them have likely made the final? I suspect Newcastle would still have finished 12th regardless. Did anyone miss HEC qualification for next year due to IWs?

IMO (without looking at the stats, I do that often enough in my day job) Sarries might have earned a home semi-final at Quins expense so there may be a small case to say that having playoffs hasn't quite levelled the IW playing field.

by Portnoy Fri 18 May 2012, 11:36 am

The comparison between franchise leagues and promotion/relegation ones is analogous to apples and kippers.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Fri 18 May 2012, 11:38 am

Portnoy wrote:The comparison between franchise leagues and promotion/relegation ones is analogous to apples and kippers.

I wasn't comparing them. Neither was Stag.

by red_stag Fri 18 May 2012, 11:48 am

This is nothing to do with the Rabodirect Pro 12. Or the Top 14. Or the Canadian U13 Junior Ladies League. Its an article about the Premiership.

I am just saying that you have raised these issues before and not got it off your chest. Do you expect that this is the last time you raise the issue?

by Portnoy Fri 18 May 2012, 11:57 am

I don't suppose it will Staggy - whilst the Jeff persists in playing the league during international call-outs and fixing the timetable and the rules to deliberately (or attempt to) skew the results their way.

by caoimhincentre Fri 18 May 2012, 11:59 am

Portnoy wrote:I don't suppose it will Staggy - whilst the Jeff persists in playing the league during international call-outs and fixing the timetable and the rules to deliberately (or attempt to) skew the results their way.

regardless of the IW, in general do the best 4 teams qualify for the playoffs.
wouldn't Leicester, NH, Sarries and Quins supply the majority if not all of the england squad this year?

by red_stag Fri 18 May 2012, 12:00 pm

It seems to me that there are some easy fixes:

1 - Promote 1-2 Championship teams and ring fence the Premiership

2 - No matches during the International windows

3 - The winner of the league is the "league winner"

4 - Disband the LV Cup

5 - Expand the playoffs to 8 teams and treat it as a separate cup. The winner is the "cup winner"

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 18 May 2012, 12:00 pm

Portnoy wrote:I don't suppose it will Staggy - whilst the Jeff persists in playing the league during international call-outs and fixing the timetable and the rules to deliberately (or attempt to) skew the results their way.

Results get skewed the "Jeff's way"?! Are the "Jeff" now a team?

Jeff clubs : the impossibility of fighting wars on three fronts Smiley-confused009

by Portnoy Fri 18 May 2012, 12:15 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Portnoy wrote:I don't suppose it will Staggy - whilst the Jeff persists in playing the league during international call-outs and fixing the timetable and the rules to deliberately (or attempt to) skew the results their way.
Results get skewed the "Jeff's way"?! Are the "Jeff" now a team?

Maybe I should have said the PRL As.

But in essence, it makes no difference.

In what year/decade would you predict an English Jeff side next winning the HEC?

by caoimhincentre Fri 18 May 2012, 12:18 pm

caoimhincentre wrote:
Portnoy wrote:I don't suppose it will Staggy - whilst the Jeff persists in playing the league during international call-outs and fixing the timetable and the rules to deliberately (or attempt to) skew the results their way.

regardless of the IW, in general do the best 4 teams qualify for the playoffs.
wouldn't Leicester, NH, Sarries and Quins supply the majority if not all of the england squad this year?

by maestegmafia Fri 18 May 2012, 12:19 pm

Surely a lot more sustainable to invest in academies and local rugby as feeders to the big rugby clubs rather than wasting millions of pounds on foreign NEQ players.

by Portnoy Fri 18 May 2012, 12:22 pm

maestegmafia wrote:Surely a lot more sustainable to invest in academies and local rugby as feeders to the big rugby clubs rather than wasting millions of pounds on foreign NEQ players.

Which implies maesteg, that that English sides do nothing to promote their academies.
Check your facts.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 18 May 2012, 12:32 pm

Promote 1-2 Championship teams and ring fence the Premiership

No relegation promotes mediocracy in the smaller teams. Better to make them fight against relegation and promote teams that have worked hard to sort a decent squad out. Newcastle need to get relegated in order to rebuild, just as Saints did a few years ago. Ring fencing would mean that there would not be another Exeter and it would end the AP dreams for the likes of Cornish Pirates, Bedford Blues and London Welsh because the 1 or 2 promoted teams would be Leeds and Bristol.

Surely a lot more sustainable to invest in academies and local rugby as feeders to the big rugby clubs rather than wasting millions of pounds on foreign NEQ players

Is this why the England age grade teams regularly out perform the other home nations? Is this why the current IRB Young Player of the Year is English?

by red_stag Fri 18 May 2012, 12:34 pm

But Sam I believe that these teams aren't eligable to play anyway. Newcastle are relegated. Odds are they are playing premiership next season.

by geoff999rugby Fri 18 May 2012, 12:40 pm

The Pro 12 is played during the International windows so I do not see the difference

by formerly known as Sam Fri 18 May 2012, 12:44 pm

But Sam I believe that these teams aren't eligable to play anyway. Newcastle are relegated. Odds are they are playing premiership next season.

There's a decision on London Welsh to come as they are looking to move to a different stadium in order to meet the requirements, not sure of the Cornish Pirate standing though they are trying to construct a 10k seater stadium for future promotion attempts. No one wants the relegated team to not get relegated so if possible they'll try and bend the rules a touch to get the winner of the play off into the league.

Most of the teams that don't qualify currently are working on ways to make sure they are eligible in the future and are looking to grow and so they should be supported with the carrott of AP rugby not forever consigned to the second tier.

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