Wales-------------Leinster===Who is the best???

This is not a thread to talk down Wales, or to talk up Leinster.

Wales this year won a Grand Slam, they was crowned the KINGS oF THE NH.
Cannot argue with at all. they was the only team to win ALL their games. And so deserved to be called KINGS of the NH.

Leinster won the Heineken Cup and get crownd the KINGS of Europe.

My question is who is the Best out of Wales and Lenister. because surely their can only be one KING OF EITHER THE NH. OR EUROPE.

Discuss.

My answer is that one is an international side and one is not, hence there is no point in comparing them. At all.

England are betterer than both.

No idea who is better, would be an interesting match, but what I do know is both play to their strengths, and can compete with the best. Leinster are better than Ireland though, that is for sure. I would say Ulster/Munster are better than Ireland too.

You need to look at this as if Wales is touring Ireland and will be playing a midweek match before a three test series.

So give Leinster home advantage and consider Wales will most likely not play their first choice players.

On that basis Leinster would have a great chance to win.

We'll see how Wales will fair in Oz when and if they do play midweek games and see how they fair

It's a fairly pointless question. But the fact that people are even discussing it shows how crazy it is that Declan Kidney is still in charge of Ireland.

He has nearly all the same players as Leinster, plus the best of Ulster, Munster and Connacht. And he has them playing brainless kick-chase-smash rugby. Does he watch Leinster games? Does he know he has players that are actually the best in Europe at playing expansive, intelligient rugby?

We have a great domestic side. Wales have a really good international side. I'd rather be in Wales position. All this dominance by Leinster is going to waste while Kidney/Smal lead Ireland. They're so wrong about the way they want Ireland to play and they're not going to change.

Schmidt's contract with Leinster expires at the same time as Kidney's contract expires with Ireland though. Just a thought.

Both are better than england and all the team's in the Jeff! Awkward

The thing is, anyone who watched Leinster last night could see that their defence was impenetrable. We just couldn't break through. The up front tackling, and the covering defence was just sublime. Yet their real strength is their ruthless attack, and their support play is just world class. You cannot give them any space to run. Similar to watching New Zealand. Yet Kidney insists on removing the attacking flair from these irish players. I really do not understand what he is doing.

There was a WUM thread recently claiming Leintser could beat the All Blacks by a poster claiming to be Irish. This one isn't any different. I thought this clown had dissapeared but unfortunately not. I'm surprised a moderator has commented instead of removing it as it is only going to esculate into bickering between rival fans, which is obviously the threads intention.

The ospreys beat england in 2008 and Australia in 2006 so chances are high munster nearly beat the all blacks a couple of seasons ago, but leinster couldn't handle wales up front,they can't handle half the Welsh pack in the ospreys so I couldn't see leinster getting with in 20 points

Rory

And I'm not trying to be a smart Rs here but is it not simply just a case that when it comes to International rugby its more about motivation and rising to the occasion as opposed to technical coaching?

Morgannwg wrote:There was a WUM thread recently claiming Leintser could beat the All Blacks by a poster claiming to be Irish. This one isn't any different. I thought this clown had dissapeared but unfortunately not. I'm surprised a moderator has commented instead of removing it as it is only going to esculate into bickering between rival fans, which is obviously the threads intention.

the moderator you are referring to is me.

The moderator see no reason to delete every thread that is started as possible controversy.

The moderator does not see it as a wum thread.

If you are unhappy with due to the moderator posting on it, then report it to another moderator.

If a thread decends into disrespectful wummery I will act on it, not before

International rugby is different laurie. Technical coaching isn't as important. But the coach is a problem when his entire rugby philosophy (ie kick-chase-smash) and game plan is the wrong one. And it's being made even more glaringly wrong by the fact that Leinster are dominating Europe with opposite rugby philosophy (ie create and exploit space).

aucklandlaurie wrote: Rory

And I'm not trying to be a smart Rs here but is it not simply just a case that when it comes to International rugby its more about motivation and rising to the occasion as opposed to technical coaching?

A coach defines the tactics that his team will play, and selects the players to do so. He has to bring 4 provinces together, and have them work as a team. He does not do this successfully. They do not play to their strengths at all. If you think a lack of motivation and not rising to the occasion is why the players play a completely different game internationally, I am not sure what to tell you.

Kidney plays a territorial game, based on killing the other team's play. He wants Ireland to slow down and disrupt. The players would rather create opportunities for themselves, play a fast paced expansive game, and score some tries. Kidney doesn't get this.

But Ireland can't play a fast expansive game at international level because they are rubbish, there is no magic key to Ireland being world beaters at International level, they are just plain rubbish, very poor pack an overrated back row half backs with the mental strength of a coward weak ass centers wingers and full back are very good though.
Talk of them playing like the all blacks is hilarious, this summer the Irish will be reminded of what all black rugby is.

biltongbek wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:There was a WUM thread recently claiming Leintser could beat the All Blacks by a poster claiming to be Irish. This one isn't any different. I thought this clown had dissapeared but unfortunately not. I'm surprised a moderator has commented instead of removing it as it is only going to esculate into bickering between rival fans, which is obviously the threads intention.

the moderator you are referring to is me.

The moderator see no reason to delete every thread that is started as possible controversy.

The moderator does not see it as a wum thread.

If you are unhappy with due to the moderator posting on it, then report it to another moderator.

If a thread decends into disrespectful wummery I will act on it, not before

It's decended into disrespectful wummery now and it is your fault.

Where?

Read up biltong, don't mug me off. BTW, I see all my comments are being complained about again. I bet that was HERSH, wasn't it?

viewtothegym wrote:But Ireland can't play a fast expansive game at international level because they are rubbish, there is no magic key to Ireland being world beaters at International level, they are just plain rubbish, very poor pack an overrated back row half backs with the mental strength of a coward weak ass centers wingers and full back are very good though.
Talk of them playing like the all blacks is hilarious, this summer the Irish will be reminded of what all black rugby is.

View, view, view................. the truth is that Leinster (and huge Irish contingent of qualified players therein) are a much better side than Ireland and yet Ireland, playing terribly, just managed to lose in the final moments to a showboating swashbuckling Welsh Grand Slam winning side. Oh and the dreadful Irish side also knocked up the most points and the most tries of the 6N. Do the maths.

I know of no complaints. If you have an example of this wummery then report it, I don't read every post

What with them both being NH sides, one a provincial team, and one being an international, we're never going to find out are we?. I think an All Blacks visit to Lansdowne to play Leinster would be interesting though...

Rory

I wasnt for one minute suggesting that Irish players lacked motivation, but rather that when an Irish teams is say like next month going to face the ABs its more about putting the team in the frame of mind to conquer the challenge in front of them, From a technical aspect his main points of attention are the combinations ,loose forwards, midfield, back three etc. and focusing on where he perceives their are weaknesses in the opposition that he can exploit.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Kidney plays a territorial game, based on killing the other team's play. He wants Ireland to slow down and disrupt. The players would rather create opportunities for themselves, play a fast paced expansive game, and score some tries. Kidney doesn't get this.

+1.

Kidney uses his players to defend until opportunities arise as the attacking side frees itself up from its own defending duties. Opportunistic heavy duty defending is what he likes, what he coaches, what he'll continue to coach as he doesn't trust the more gamble based attack game.

These Irish players prove themselves time and time again as players who much prefer to attack and use defence as a buffer for breathers rather than as a strategic objective in its own right. Kidney is unwilling to match his unwavering 'gameplan' to the players he chooses. Instead, he wants players who patently excel at one game style to hunch down and do soul destroying + adrenaline and enegy sapping defensive drills for large sections of their allotted 80mins per game. It's just not close to being the right balance but as long as he persists, Ireland will loll in and around 8th in the world.

Theres nothing wrong with attacking through your defence, only trouble is that to win the majority of your games you have to score points and preferably in increments of 5 or 7, not every game is going to pan out like Ireland v Australia last october.
But maybe the players could show more initiative on attack? you cant just blame the coach. I dont want to get too gobby on this, as Ireland are just as likely to turn round and beat the ABs next month and I'm going to look like a right prat.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Theres nothing wrong with attacking through your defence, only trouble is that to win the majority of your games you have to score points and preferably in increments of 5 or 7, not every game is going to pan out like Ireland v Australia last october.
But maybe the players could show more initiative on attack? you cant just blame the coach. I dont want to get too gobby on this, as Ireland are just as likely to turn round and beat the ABs next month and I'm going to look like a right prat.

It's percentages of 80 minutes I'm talking about laurie. Those 80 minutes are valuable minutes, they sift through your fingers very quickly if you don't have the right strategy to help you through a game. Defending needlessly (and that's what we see Ireland do over and over - kicking ball away when under no pressure, to have attacking sides rush back at us in precarious positions; aimless and predictable box kicking with indifferent follow ups or support players trying to make them count if won; our full back rushing in to do the heroics in the air only to remain isolated with ball in hand and nobody coming forward to turn the steal into an attacking platform) It's all very basic stuff that suggests it isn't players, it's coaching etiquette that is dished out to them for them to obey. Defend and stay safe. Risk little, keep defensive structure in mind at all times.

Initiative in attack is a blueprint you work to - it's a communion between coaches and players that it will happen; it's played into training. If the sketches on the blackboard have designed a different gameplan then there won't be invention. I say again, Irish players (the Irish ones, not the foreigners) - Irish players prove themselves each year as inventive, creative and fit enough to sustain such a game for 80 minutes at a time. International camp pretty much kills all that dead. Yes, we can blame coaching - coaching is the key; coaching will unlock the conundrum of Provincial intent verses International impotency.

We've seen club sides beat international 'tourong' sides in the past so it wouldn't be such a massive never happened before shock.

The club side tend to be together week in week out for a whole season where as the International side only for a limited time.

I think Kidney would help himself an awful lot by having a backs and attack coach. Gaffney was not a naturally expansive backs coach for sure, but at least with him on board the accuracy was there. I think back to 2010 where our rugby was as turgid as this season but we beat England away by soaking up pressure and then taking our chances. This season in comparison such accuracy is lacking, and when presented with opportunities we squandered them. Kidney's team of 2009, 2010 or his Munster teams would never have lost to Wales from the winning position we had this season.

Its all very well saying our backs can play inventive rugby, but our pack has been consistently out played, out muscled and out thought this past season. The backs can't do much behind a retreating pack. A back line can't do much when there is no scrum half in a green shirt capable of presenting them with quality ball.

Kidney is a a convenient scapegoat. For sure, his selection policies can be bewildering at times. For me his problem is not that he is playing so called negative and functional rugby, it is the he doesn't have the players to play the style of rugby he wants to play. Gatland has and Wales have prospered. A true mark of Gatland's reign as Welsh coach has been how he has changed and moulded the expectations of the Welsh rugby public. This team is not a 'vintage' of the 70s or even the 2003 grand slam team. They do not play the 'Welsh' way and throw the ball about. They play extremely effective, functional rugby that assesses their strengths and plays to it.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote: I think back to 2010 where our rugby was as turgid as this season but we beat England away by soaking up pressure and then taking our chances. This season in comparison such accuracy is lacking, and when presented with opportunities we squandered them.

A true mark of Gatland's reign as Welsh coach has been how he has changed and moulded the expectations of the Welsh rugby public. This team is not a 'vintage' of the 70s or even the 2003 grand slam team. They do not play the 'Welsh' way and throw the ball about. They play extremely effective, functional rugby that assesses their strengths and plays to it.

Kidney plays to a blueprint - you confirm it by suggesting we played the very same way two seasons ago. It was turgid and predictable for opposition then, it's turgid and predictable now. It doesn't work. The opposition know what's coming. And by your own words you admit it isn't players it is a system, it has Kidney's signature attached to it, it isn't rogue players mucking up good tactics.

The last highlight refers to my whole point about Kidney's methods. He picks players who naturally play one game and tries to quickly push them into proponents of his system (the turgid one that was also in evidence in 2010). He chooses players who want to attack to play a high volume defensive game. It's not right and it can't be defended - not with our world ranking.

I agree and disagree with you Fly. What I meant, and maybe I didn't make this clear enough is that to blame Kidney for the tactics alone is wrong. Kidney's failures are in fact worse than that because he picks a team that cannot play to those tactics. They key to our success under him was having David Wallace at 7 and Ronan O'Gara at 10. Wallace, though not a 'natural' 7 was superb at slowing the ball down and disrupting the opposition ball. O'Brien, who is improving all the time it must be said, is simply not in the same class as Wallace in his pomp at present. That is not to say he can't or never will be, but at the moment he isn't. For all the strengths of Sexton he kicking out of hand is average. It is neither good nor terrible, just in the middle. O'Gara is probably the best tactical kicker of the professional age for all his other faults.

However, two other points are important. No matter what tactics we play our pack at the moment is simply not good enough. For a start we have 7 forwards on the pitch for Mike Ross is total passenger at international level. He is out of shape, he doesn't carry well, he does affect turnovers. He scrummaging alone dictates he plays, as we saw against England why. We haven't had any other options, and for that reason this tour to New Zealand will be absolutely vital for Decland Fitzpatrick. He actually does much more around the pitch, though his fitness is poor. Without O'Connell we have only one second row is looks international standard, and that of Donnacha Ryan. O'Callaghan is way past his best and Dan Tuohy has not been given an opportunity. Thirdly here the back row haven't a clue what they are doing. They don't seem to have any clear notion of their individual roles nor the unit as a whole. Look at Wales. We know exactly what Lydiate does, we know what Faletau does and we know what their 7 will do depending on who is fit. Our choice of Healsip, O'Brien and Ferris on paper is better, but the Welsh play like so much more than the some of their parts.

For all of those problems which can be directly levelled at Kidney and his coaches, the amount of forward passes, knock ons, and silly penalties this season in the Six Nations is fundamentally unacceptable. Kidney cannot be blamed for the mistakes that schoolboys would not be make against Wales and France. Simple accuracy, simple holding onto the ball in contact or after a pass, or not giving away silly penalties and we would have beaten Wales and France. England is another matter. A perfect storm and we were blown away. For all Kidney's mistakes, and there are many that we rehash, it was the basic errors of players that cost us this season. Of course, it is true that we would have won those matches inspire of Kidney, but nonetheless, they are games we should have won.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I agree and disagree with you Fly. What I meant, and maybe I didn't make this clear enough is that to blame Kidney for the tactics alone is wrong. Kidney's failures are in fact worse than that because he picks a team that cannot play to those tactics. They key to our success under him was having David Wallace at 7 and Ronan O'Gara at 10. Wallace, though not a 'natural' 7 was superb at slowing the ball down and disrupting the opposition ball. O'Brien, who is improving all the time it must be said, is simply not in the same class as Wallace in his pomp at present. That is not to say he can't or never will be, but at the moment he isn't. For all the strengths of Sexton he kicking out of hand is average. It is neither good nor terrible, just in the middle. O'Gara is probably the best tactical kicker of the professional age for all his other faults.

However, two other points are important. No matter what tactics we play our pack at the moment is simply not good enough. For a start we have 7 forwards on the pitch for Mike Ross is total passenger at international level. He is out of shape, he doesn't carry well, he does affect turnovers. He scrummaging alone dictates he plays, as we saw against England why. We haven't had any other options, and for that reason this tour to New Zealand will be absolutely vital for Decland Fitzpatrick. He actually does much more around the pitch, though his fitness is poor. Without O'Connell we have only one second row is looks international standard, and that of Donnacha Ryan. O'Callaghan is way past his best and Dan Tuohy has not been given an opportunity. Thirdly here the back row haven't a clue what they are doing. They don't seem to have any clear notion of their individual roles nor the unit as a whole. Look at Wales. We know exactly what Lydiate does, we know what Faletau does and we know what their 7 will do depending on who is fit. Our choice of Healsip, O'Brien and Ferris on paper is better, but the Welsh play like so much more than the some of their parts.

For all of those problems which can be directly levelled at Kidney and his coaches, the amount of forward passes, knock ons, and silly penalties this season in the Six Nations is fundamentally unacceptable. Kidney cannot be blamed for the mistakes that schoolboys would not be make against Wales and France. Simple accuracy, simple holding onto the ball in contact or after a pass, or not giving away silly penalties and we would have beaten Wales and France. England is another matter. A perfect storm and we were blown away. For all Kidney's mistakes, and there are many that we rehash, it was the basic errors of players that cost us this season. Of course, it is true that we would have won those matches inspire of Kidney, but nonetheless, they are games we should have won.

I agree, I think Ferris and O'Brien are too similar players to be able to cover the jobs of both 6 and 7 in the same team. They really need more of a scavenger rather than another ball carrier at 7.

biltongbek wrote:I know of no complaints. If you have an example of this wummery then report it, I don't read every post

The complaint button was highlighted meaning someone, probably HERSH, reported it.

Looks like some people need to check the IRB rankings ........

viewtothegym wrote:Both are better than england and all the team's in the Jeff! Awkward

I guess the IRB world rankins say different dont they? ehh, viewtothegym?

I agree with the point that Ferris and O'Brien are too similar to play together internationally. But who would one choose? I beleive the Irish backrow is one of the most overrated things in rugby at present. Heaslip looks complacent and off the boil and Ferris and O'Brien do not regularly deliver on the international stage. Only Italy and possibly Scotland have an inferior back row in the Northern Hemisphere.

majesticimperialman wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Both are better than england and all the team's in the Jeff! Awkward

I guess the IRB world rankins say different dont they? ehh, viewtothegym?

Higher finishes in the World Cup, 6 Nations along with a Grand Slam and two on the bounce against England might again say different. What you reckon maj?

Wales was better on the day.

But the IRB world rankins still have England ABOVE Wales.

Yeah but I have just provided factual evidence to prove WALES ARE BETTER THAN ENGLAND () so not sure why you keep mentioning it?

Im not so sure Wales are better than England. They rode their luck in the 6 Nations and even then only scraped by a very inexperienced England side which could and should have won the game. Ditto against Ireland thanks to a moment of madness from Stephen Ferris. If they were to play again I think England would have the edge but home field advantage would play a big part.

gordy stop making us yawn to death. We hear the same things every time we beat you. We'd beat you again if we were to play again seeing as we've already done it home and away this season.

Oh so it's become a Wales----------------England===Who is best???

Now I'm sure I came across a similar thread somewhere before....hmmmm, let me think when and where.

If it's not Wales' day then Leinster would be in with a shout.

Of course, being two entirely different entities, we'd only be able to speculate on who is better if they were playing each other, which I'm not sure they ever have.

While we're at it, who do you think is better, Sale or Scotland? And I've always wondered who would win, France or Free State Cheetahs

SecretFly wrote:Oh so it's become a Wales----------------England===Who is best???

Now I'm sure I came across a similar thread somewhere before....hmmmm, let me think when and where.

Trust me it did not start out that way. But every time Wales is mentiond by an English man it always turns into a Wales v England thread.

No maj I think it's just your threads. And it's turned out exactly how I said it would.

Morgannwg wrote:No maj I think it's just your threads. And it's turned out exactly how I said it would.

The posting all seemed to be good-natured except for you and your mate viewtothegym.

Knowsit17 wrote:If it's not Wales' day then Leinster would be in with a shout.

Of course, being two entirely different entities, we'd only be able to speculate on who is better if they were playing each other, which I'm not sure they ever have.

While we're at it, who do you think is better, Sale or Scotland? And I've always wondered who would win, France or Free State Cheetahs

well to be fair the Cheetahs do play rather exciting rugby but sadly has about 5%of the budget that France has.

It'll be a good game to watch at least

majesticimperialman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Oh so it's become a Wales----------------England===Who is best???

Now I'm sure I came across a similar thread somewhere before....hmmmm, let me think when and where.

Trust me it did not start out that way. But every time Wales is mentiond by an English man it always turns into a Wales v England thread.

I know and I don't mind at all. There's actaully a certain beauty in the simplicity of the ritual - Hardened 'enemies'/rivals in a game both sets of fans love. By all means let the unending battle continue.

Cyril you aren't doing yourself any favours by following me as well as maestegmafia, it's only going to get you banned a lot sooner. If you want to discuss something rugby with me then I'd be happy to.

Well fancy that ! I create an article asking who is better ospreys or England and it get removed with in 10 mins. Shame on you mods,it just about says it all just like the BBC 606 any article that slates welsh rugby is left for all to have fun, say something about England and it gets pulled.

View - grow up.