Just how good can this OSPREYS team become?

Doom and gloom was predicted when the Ospreys coaches moved on and the team began losing a whole raft of players. But instead Steve Tandy taking over has been a breath of fresh air, perhaps even a revelation.

Ospreys were yesterday crowned champions of the Rabo Pro 12 Celtic League after beating Leinster in the RDS (again). What is different this time around is that the Ospreys are playing together, for each other, like a good team (special mention to Adam/Ryan/Alun-Wyn Jones and Ian Evans here). Something I've never seen before. Also, the opposition are back to back European champions and possibly the greatest team to lift the trophy. So speaking as a neutral is beating the euro champs three out of three times in a season a good platform to build from and make a more significant mark in the Heineken Cup than before?

I think there a couple of backs away from being strong contenders in the HC next year, depending on others in the group but can't see a reason why they won't start as one of the favorites.

They have the pack to give themselves a fighting chance in any game. A solid scrum is a great attacking platform and Biggar is a cery good hoal kicker.
I would worrie about the backs, the back 3 next season looks weak defensively. A solid 15 and a no8 to push bearman would be needed to push on in the H.C.

Prediction... Quarters at best do the foreseeable future.

Definitely. I think they need a better full back and outside centre. But to be fair to Bishop he is in fine form. Not sure if he'll be keeping that up though, knowing him he won't. Possibly also some cover on the wings.

Anyway, I want to hear the Secret Fly's take on this.

You shouldn't settle for anything less than a "dynasty".

Firstly congratulations on a good win. I think the real test will be next season, after Tandy's 'honeymoon' period is over. I only say this because we went through the same thing at the Dragons. Edwards took over half way through the season, and our improvement was very notable. However look at us this year and it's been one of the worst years since our inception.

I don't think it will be that same for the Ospreys as they have a very solid pack, but the real test will be next year.

Good luck to you...

I thought you were going out to the sun morg...

Sigh. Ospreys are built up every year as the dark horses of the HC. We'll have to wait and see if yet again the weight of expectation and hype crushes them again.

Winning the Pro12 is a good achievement but now Ospreys have won it 4 times, has it improved their HC chances in the past? No.

Ospreys have for a while being a very dangerous side in the Pro12, it's the HC which has been the problem. Ospreys have a lot to prove.

Agree with Beshocked until they make Fina/SF of the HC they remain pretenders.

Lots of potential but they need to deliver on the European stage.
Alternatively actually finishing top of the Pro12 league a couple of times in a row would go some way to showing they class.

beshocked wrote:Ospreys have for a while been a very dangerous side in the Pro12, it's the HC which has been the problem. Ospreys have a lot to prove.

On the money.

Hopefully playing for one of their own in Tandy is what the O's needed to put some fire in their belly.

They criminally underacheived under H&H and then Johnson and Holley. The back 3 is a worry after losing Bowe/Williams (2 world class wingers are always going to be hard to replace). Even tougher when they've lost Byrne at FB and Prydie's gone to the dragons (who seemed the heir apparent at FB since his debut for Wales).

Next year will be tough, they'll be gunned for in the Rabo, the Irish teams will have something to prove to them after their record against them this year. The HC will be a step too far for them next year imo, QFs at best, dependant on the group, if they get a home QF they can make the semis.

The backline are too naive defensively, they'll need some more experience in there if they have a hope of european silverware next season.

Still, even as a Blues fan, it'd be nice to see the ospreys really push on next year, they've been threatening so much but delivering little in comparison for too long now, perhaps Tandy can get the right balance.

Beshocked "Sigh. Ospreys are built up every year as the dark horses of the HC. We'll have to wait and see if yet again the weight of expectation and hype crushes them again." I agree. Ospreys are built up every year in the Heineken Cup and it turns out to be same ol, same ol... I'd say apart from this year though where Saracens were the dark horses after you rammed it down everybody's throats so often. But the weight of expectation/the Clermont scrum crushed them....

geoff, you think final/semi final? I'd say they would have to win the thing. Did you just mention that because Ulster made the final? I think quarters/semi's is a realstic goal for next season. Somewhere they haven't been in a while.

I'm also in agreement with comfort. I wisht the Secret Fly would hurry up and comment so I can also be in agreement with him.

Re: Just how good can this OSPREYS team become?

Better than the Blues

Morgannwg

Yes I admit I thought Saracens might do well - we did not too badly actually - topped a pool including the Pro12 winners and Amlin winners. Only English side to reach the quarter finals. Only side to win at the Liberty in the HC for about 5 years.

A team aren't dark horses if only one person is talking them up.Most people talk up their team as do you.

Weight of expectation? No Clermont are one of the best sides in Europe, in many people's eyes only 2nd to Leinster.

Question, is there a vast difference in the players named for the HC and the Rabo?

There are similar teams in the HC and Rabo as well, obviously just those that qulaify goes throught to the HC.

But I am interested to know how different the squads are.

Ospreys are lightyears from winning the HC, they need a back 3, a better 8, and a 10 who can change the game up a bit.

Not to mention a top LH, a backup 9, and a backup hooker.

biltongbek wrote:

But I am interested to know how different the squads are.

The players in the Ospreys squad are more massive than the ones in the Leinster squad.

They didn't look much bigger than anyone in the HC Morg!

thebluesmancometh wrote:They didn't look much bigger than anyone in the HC Morg!

No but they got parity upfront. Having a classy tight 5 only wins you the right to play. Scarlets, Blues and Dragons dont have a quality tight 5 which is exactly why they cant beat the big boys in the HC. So from that perspective the Ospreys have a solid platform.

Morgannwg wrote: geoff, you think final/semi final? I'd say they would have to win the thing. Did you just mention that because Ulster made the final? I think quarters/semi's is a realstic goal for next season. Somewhere they haven't been in a while.

I said SF because you can qualify for the QF by finishing 2nd in your group and winner only 1 away game. If you then lose the QF not sure they really shows any significant progress.

A SF would be a statement and suggest that the Ospreys have made genuine progress, a Final even more so

Morgannwg wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

But I am interested to know how different the squads are.

The players in the Ospreys squad are more massive than the ones in the Leinster squad.

Let me try again, do the players WITHIN the squad of a specifc team differ hugely between Rabo and HC?

geoff998rugby wrote:

Morgannwg wrote: geoff, you think final/semi final? I'd say they would have to win the thing. Did you just mention that because Ulster made the final? I think quarters/semi's is a realstic goal for next season. Somewhere they haven't been in a while.

I said SF because you can qualify for the QF by finishing 2nd in your group and winner only 1 away game. If you then lose the QF not sure they really shows any significant progress.

A SF would be a statement and suggest that the Ospreys have made genuine progress, a Final even more so

True Geoff. Also Ospreys have never reached a HC semi so it would definitely be progress.

Morgannwg wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

But I am interested to know how different the squads are.

The players in the Ospreys squad are more massive than the ones in the Leinster squad.

So they are slower then?

Morgannwg wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

But I am interested to know how different the squads are.

The players in the Ospreys squad are more massive than the ones in the Leinster squad.

mushroom

So the Ospreys out performed all other regions in this seasons HC? Or maybe last season? Or the season before?

When was the last time the Ospreys were the welsh challenge?

To be fair to O's they were the Welsh flag bearers in 2009/10 HC with a quarter final appearance.

biltongbek wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

But I am interested to know how different the squads are.

The players in the Ospreys squad are more massive than the ones in the Leinster squad.

Let me try again, do the players WITHIN the squad of a specifc team differ hugely between Rabo and HC?

Bill - the Rabo squads will be the general senior playing squad. the HC squad will be a pool of 30 (cant remember how many exactly so thats an example) of the best from within that squad. You are only allowed to make 1/2 changes to the HC squad from when it is originally named.

The HC squads are seen as the real deal basically, Leinster tend to use their HC fringe/academy players and players coming back from injury in the Rabo league games. However, for the final, it was their strongest squad (bar Healy/SOB through injury), so the ospreys victory is being thoroughly enjoyed. And its nice for everyone else to see that Leinster (their HC squad) can be beaten, even at home!

Apologies I forgot that season when the Blues failed to qualify. Is it 3 Q/F and a semi in the last 5 years says the Blues have been the only consistant welsh team in the HC?

Comfort wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

But I am interested to know how different the squads are.

The players in the Ospreys squad are more massive than the ones in the Leinster squad.

Let me try again, do the players WITHIN the squad of a specifc team differ hugely between Rabo and HC?

Bill - the Rabo squads will be the general senior playing squad. the HC squad will be a pool of 30 (cant remember how many exactly so thats an example) of the best from within that squad. You are only allowed to make 1/2 changes to the HC squad from when it is originally named.

The HC squads are seen as the real deal basically, Leinster tend to use their HC fringe/academy players and players coming back from injury in the Rabo league games. However, for the final, it was their strongest squad (bar Healy/SOB through injury), so the ospreys victory is being thoroughly enjoyed. And its nice for everyone else to see that Leinster (their HC squad) can be beaten, even at home!

Cheers thanks mate.

If I was an Ospreys fan I'd be expecting a big assault on Europe next year. Possibly at the expense of the league.

This year they finished 2nd in the league and went out of the group stage of the HC. Should they use squad players a bit more in the league and shift emphasis onto the HC? Is the squad depth good enough?

You could see the that even with Leinsters squad depth, players were going off injured and going down with cramp in the league final. League playoff's plus HC knockout's is a big strain.

I think Ospreys should back themselves to go all out for Europe. They could still finish in the top 6 of the league while resting their best players a bit more.

They have 4 league titles. They need European success to take the next step. If they can take out Leinster in a league final they shouldn't fear anyone.

I agree Feckless - think they need to focus on the HC at the expense of the League next season, the only club that can really go for both is Leinster because of their unbelievable depth.

Rest players in the Rabo and go all out for key games in the Heineken.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Ospreys are lightyears from winning the HC, they need a back 3, a better 8, and a 10 who can change the game up a bit.

Not to mention a top LH, a backup 9, and a backup hooker.

How do you figure that? As a Dragons fan even i find this comment baffeling

Biggar has been playing really well. If you look at the amount of tries the Ospreys have scored in the last 7 matches since Tandy has come in and given Biggar has been playing at 10 during this period, I think your being a little harsh on him. Keep in mind he is only 22.

At 8 JT (although injured at the moment) should be a more than able deputy. Always been a big fan of his as he is quite quick and a great ball carrier. Also gives them something in the lineout. I appreciate Ospreys fans dont rate him there but for me he was playing really well there until he got injured this season. Either way the pack is certanly not a weakness. Bevington & Baldwin have already shown their attributes and look like able replacements to Paul James and Bennett.

Granted they dont have the best back 3 but I think Fussell has been getting some stick from Ospreys posters on here. In fairness he attacks the line well, creates space for others and does have a bit of pace as well. Granted his kicking game is not the best and probably has question marks on his positioning (given he was a winger by trade) but for me a full back needs to offer something in attack first and foremost. Seems like a genuine threat when he is on form.

Dirksen, Walker and Morgan are all young and lack experience. That said I wouldnt say they dont have the skills to cause teams problems.

Personally I think Ospreys have started getting a good blend of experience and youth together. Keep in mind Wasps, Leicester, Toulouse, Munster and Leinster took a long time to establish themselves into winning HC sides.

Either way the Ospreys are the best chance a Welsh Region has of winning the HC, as the others dont even have a front five (platform).

thebluesmancometh wrote:mushroom

So the Ospreys out performed all other regions in this seasons HC? Or maybe last season? Or the season before?

When was the last time the Ospreys were the welsh challenge?

I'm sorry but the Blues had the easiest group in the HC to qualify out of. The difference is when the Blues met a quality outfit (Leinster) they got toally trashed.

As a Dragons fan even I can see 2 narrow losses to Saracens (and given the group they where in) probably showed the Ospreys to be the stronger outfit in the HC.

Next thing you'll be telling me its the Blues who are in fact the most likely Welsh Side to win the HC.........

thebluesmancometh wrote:Apologies I forgot that season when the Blues failed to qualify. Is it 3 Q/F and a semi in the last 5 years says the Blues have been the only consistant welsh team in the HC?

Are you under the illusion the Blues are still as strong as when they got to the Semi Final in the HC?

Looking at your front 5 for next year its looking like this

1 Hobbs - Because the South Islander you bought cant scrummage.
2 Breeze - I hope so anyway because otherwise your playing the Ulster second stringer as first choice.
3 Borrust - because Andrews is crap.
4 Davies - A class act no doubt.
5 Reed - Potential is there and adds bulk and height.

So basically I totally expect the Blues to get owned by more dominant forwards. Reed and Davies could be really good together but sadly the lack of quality at 1,2,3 wont see them bring any major silverware home.

Mushroom

Blues were in an easy group because their HC record determines them so. They are top seeds because they are consistently strong in the group stage.

Biggar has been ok, but he throws intercept passes, misses kicks at goal/touch, and is generally ok. What I meant was that they need a different type of 10 to go alongside him, Morgans going to take a few more years yet, and there arent an abundance of Backs that Biggar can rely on to do his work for him.

Bevington looks like he could be cracking, but then I said the same about Gustafson. And he and Baldwin would become a weakness in the latter stages of the comp, if they were on together.

Dirkson looks like he could be something to watch in a few seasons, but now he makes too many mistakes, Walker, well he's 3 seasons off being ready for the Rabo. Morgan a potential but thats it.

The Ospreys probably have the more rounded team at present, but the Scarlets I'd say are the best Welsh team, and heading in the right direction, and the Blues the fav's to go furthest in the HC next season due to their seeding.

That said none of them will win it...

Mushroom

The game is not just about the Tight 5, the scrum yes but not the game!

The Blues tight 5 is as weak as the Ospreys back, but the Blues backline is as good as the Ospreys tight 5, if only we could mix and match, we might have a HC under our belt

There's now little doubting that Ospreys are a match for almost anyone imo. Braving the fortress of the RDS not once but twice this season (three times in three years counting the 2010 final win) up against the finest side in Europe is something you must give due credit for. That's when you consider Leinster went unbeaten in the Heino, lost to only one other side all season and had toppled the likes of Clermont away. I'm over the moon personally

There is something in what people are pointing out about the O's past shortcomings when it comes to Europe. This begs the question Have Ospreys ever had more reason to be optimistic than now? Regardless I agree with everybody's sentiments, generally any side must back up any level of expectation to prove they are serious contenders. This signifies making the Semi's at the very least imo.

Having said that I personally believe the O's can be in with a shout based on this season, particularly from since Tandy took the reigns. The next thing is to hope he can help take a degree of consistency into next season and that the success won't peter out from now on. They can take a lot of encouragement and confidence from yesterday.

Knowsit17 it's also heavily dependent on who you draw in the pool stages.

For example getting Biarritz,Edinburgh,Ospreys,Exeter is much more favourable than Leinster,Clermont,Ospreys, Exeter.

True but then again I never feel comfortable with the potential complacency that comes with drawing a seemingly easy pool. I know that as long as you're consistent you have less to worry about but ultimately I like the idea of a tough challenge to meet earlier on which, provided you get through it, can brace you for the knockout stages.

Ospreys..how good could they be? Well, they certainly could be good enough to lift the HEC next year. After that, nobody can say; as nobody can predict legacies or years of dominance, only enjoy looking back on them once they're gone.

But seriously too, there are a lot of sides putting their hands up for "How good could this team become?" Quins in England, Clermont in France, Edinburgh in Scotland, Ulster in Ireland. Leinster will have, and already has, serious competition in Europe... but that proves how tough Europe is to win and it was one of the reasons why I said and still say winning three from four is a bloody good achievement.

But this is dedicated to Ospreys - and for sure they are contenders for best European side next season.

Morgannwg wrote:Ospreys were yesterday crowned champions of the Rabo Pro 12 Celtic League after beating Leinster in the RDS (again). So speaking as a neutral is beating the euro champs three out of three times in a season a good platform to build from and make a more significant mark in the Heineken Cup?

It isn't called the Celtic League anymore since the Italians entered. It's called the Pro 12.

Setting store on getting 2 wins against a Leinster B side is not necessarily a good platform but it ain't bad.

Ospreys need to get regular wins against full-strength, top class sides in the League (like yesterday) and in the European Cup (not this season). They ain't there yet. But Tandy has made a very good start.

Eh? How was yesterday's side Leinster B? O'Brien the only noticeable absence from the starting XV and even he's not so good that his presence can singularly transform a B side into an A

thebluesmancometh wrote:Mushroom

The game is not just about the Tight 5, the scrum yes but not the game!

The Blues tight 5 is as weak as the Ospreys back, but the Blues backline is as good as the Ospreys tight 5, if only we could mix and match, we might have a HC under our belt

Backs dont decide if i team wins a game.

Its like the old saying goes "Forwards decide if you win the match, backs by how much."

There is no question the Blues and Scarlets can field better backlines. Problem is they dont get front foot ball that often which renders them useless.

Your tight 5 dont just determine the result at scrum time. Lineout is another major asset. Also your locks and props do a whole load of clearing out at the breakdown. The backrowers are there to secure that cleared out ball (except the openside who provides a link in attack but is fundamentally a poacher in defence).

I've rarely seen any exception in rugby where a dominant pack does not win. Sure there are a few matches that occasionally buck the trend but over the length of a tournament this is never the case.

If you dont believe me then ask yourself this question - when has a team ever won a HC without at least having parity in the forwards? Its never happened. Without a good foundation you have zero chance of winning it which makes the Ospreys Wales best hope by far.


I'm not Blues bashing here btw, my point is this. If they Scarlets or Blues want to be taken seriously they need to have a tight 5 that will secure them enough ball to allow their backs to do what they do best. I would love to see all the regions be competitive but until they address the fundamentals of the game they can forget it.

I thought the Ospreys backs were quite good yesterday. That replacement scrum half looks really excellent. Why didn't he start? I've always rated Biggar as a good prospect. The criticism of him in the past was over top given his age. He was more good than bad yesterday. Williams will be a big big loss. Why is he retiring? He's obviously still an asset, as he showed yesterday.

I don't know, what I will say is most of the Welsh regions Heinaken Cup chances were shot to pieces by that bloody Australia game in December, losing the boys for 2 weeks before the game due to international training, hammered the teams preperations for those Heinaken Cup games.

There shooting yourself in the foot, and then there's jumping on a landmine to see what happens, the WRU did the latter to the regions.

Feckless, you don't honestly think Kahn Fo' is a good player?!

Alyn, I agree. The regions were actually going well in the HC before that Aussie match. And they all suffered poor results directly after it. But because so few people go to watch the regions the WRU need the extra international to fund the whole thing and pay off debt. Until the financial situation and the attendance situation changes, I think they'll keep playing extra international games. They need the money.

Morgan, I don't know anything about Kahn Fo'. He just looked very quick and very lively to me when he came on. Is he no good?

He can't pass and his kicks are very aimless (going straight into your teams hands every single kick). He had one kick charged down to and he had all the time in the world.

Morgannwg wrote:He can't pass and his kicks are very aimless (going straight into your teams hands every single kick). He had one kick charged down to and he had all the time in the world.

A year ago I was gutted he'd opted for Samoa over NZ. Granted our halfback stocks weren't great at the time, but he was good enough to start for the Crusaders regularly. I guess the move north doesn't work for everyone.

Definitely not. Can't see how he was the Crusaders first choice. He might get better, but i can't see it. He does have his strengths but passing and kicing aren't one or two of them.

Honestly I feel Kahn Fotuali'i is singled out and overly criticised. He's much better than some of his performances let off. Had a good WC with Samoa and hasn't had an all bad debut season with the O's. Terrific game against Munster as well as a couple earlier in the season. Maybe outweighed by errors and yes, he did look under pressure late at in Dublin but that's the point, Leinster were applying it seriously by that point and Fotty was hardly the only player making errors as a result.