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Manu Tuilagi hit with citing

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Post by Zander Mon May 28, 2012 6:20 pm

Here's the link: http://www.espnscrum.com/england-tour-2012/rugby/story/164738.html

In my opinion I didn't think it was that bad but if he is cited and misses the tests against South Africa then it gives Jonathan Joseph a chance. I hope he's not cited though.

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Post by EnglishReign Mon May 28, 2012 6:21 pm

Manu Tuilagi has been cited for a tip tackle on Danny Care in the Jeff final. Oh dear.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9295815/Leicester-Tigers-centre-Manu-Tuilagi-cited-following-tip-tackle-on-Harlequinss-Danny-Care-Premiership-final.html

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Post by EnglishReign Mon May 28, 2012 6:23 pm

Just posted this also, knew it would be a double. Merge perhaps, mods?

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Post by Artful_Dodger Mon May 28, 2012 6:27 pm

Knew it - said as soon as I seen it in the Harlequins vs Tigers thread that it would be a citing and I think he'll be looking at 4 weeks minimum.

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Post by Manu's Boxing Coach Mon May 28, 2012 7:02 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:Knew it - said as soon as I seen it in the Harlequins vs Tigers thread that it would be a citing and I think he'll be looking at 4 weeks minimum.

Seems harsh to me, IMO he was always in control of Care and placed him down safely. I think it was a penalty but no more.

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Post by slartibartfast Mon May 28, 2012 7:03 pm

On the Rolland scale of red, crimson, scarlet and Cardinal red.... How bad was it?
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Post by mystiroakey Mon May 28, 2012 7:04 pm

why does club rugby citings interfer with international, or vice versa- thats what i dont get?

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Post by yappysnap Mon May 28, 2012 7:08 pm

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:
Artful_Dodger wrote:Knew it - said as soon as I seen it in the Harlequins vs Tigers thread that it would be a citing and I think he'll be looking at 4 weeks minimum.

Seems harsh to me, IMO he was always in control of Care and placed him down safely. I think it was a penalty but no more.

Although not a true spear tackle, it's a lot like similar "dangerous" tackles which have all recently recieved bans. I think one of the key things is taking the legs past horizontal which does happen, and then Care does come down on his shoulder, but it wasn't overly malicous just stupid. If the panel also look at some of his other reckless tackles in that game though he could be in trouble.

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Post by alcoombe Mon May 28, 2012 7:08 pm

If he misses the tour I hope Lancaster was paying attention at the weekend and we see Joseph take his place rather than a Farrell-Barritt centre partnership. Lowe is the other option, and a good one, but I think I'd prefer Joseph paired with Barritt.

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Post by Zander Mon May 28, 2012 7:11 pm

alcoombe wrote:If he misses the tour I hope Lancaster was paying attention at the weekend and we see Joseph take his place rather than a Farrell-Barritt centre partnership. Lowe is the other option, and a good one, but I think I'd prefer Joseph paired with Barritt.

I agree, I really don't want to see a Farell-Barritt centre partnership. Both players there are being played out of position and neither of them offer ANYTHING in attack. I'd really like to see Joseph at 13 although I'm not sure about his defence with huge Saffas running at him.

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Post by yappysnap Mon May 28, 2012 7:20 pm

Maybe start Lowe and put Joseph on the bench/wing? We can probably only afford to play either Wade or Joseph as they both have defence issues.

Is Joseph actually in the squad?


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Post by Zander Mon May 28, 2012 7:21 pm

Both Joseph and Lowe are in the squad for South Africa.

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Post by LondonTiger Mon May 28, 2012 7:25 pm

Only saw it live and from a distance, but from memory Care was not tipped and he came down under control flat on his back.

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Post by Biltong Mon May 28, 2012 7:34 pm

Topics merged
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Post by EnglishReign Mon May 28, 2012 7:34 pm

In which case who would take Manu's place, should he be banned?

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Post by timhen Mon May 28, 2012 7:35 pm

Spoiler:

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Post by geoff999rugby Mon May 28, 2012 7:40 pm

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:
Artful_Dodger wrote:Knew it - said as soon as I seen it in the Harlequins vs Tigers thread that it would be a citing and I think he'll be looking at 4 weeks minimum.

Seems harsh to me, IMO he was always in control of Care and placed him down safely. I think it was a penalty but no more.

Reminded me of Afoa's against Munster and he got 4 weeks.

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Post by mystiroakey Mon May 28, 2012 7:57 pm

basically i am abit gutted about this- silly manu

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Post by LondonTiger Mon May 28, 2012 8:01 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:
Artful_Dodger wrote:Knew it - said as soon as I seen it in the Harlequins vs Tigers thread that it would be a citing and I think he'll be looking at 4 weeks minimum.

Seems harsh to me, IMO he was always in control of Care and placed him down safely. I think it was a penalty but no more.

Reminded me of Afoa's against Munster and he got 4 weeks.

If it was like Afoa's then it was much worse than my view from the stands and deserves at least 6 weeks. Shame as he is really talented. Perhaps 36 will be called up (though he is not a 13)

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Post by The Great Aukster Mon May 28, 2012 8:08 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:
Artful_Dodger wrote:Knew it - said as soon as I seen it in the Harlequins vs Tigers thread that it would be a citing and I think he'll be looking at 4 weeks minimum.

Seems harsh to me, IMO he was always in control of Care and placed him down safely. I think it was a penalty but no more.

Reminded me of Afoa's against Munster and he got 4 weeks.

Afoa got seven weeks reduced to four because of a previous unblemished record - Manu hasn't got that.

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Post by Zander Mon May 28, 2012 8:08 pm

Who do people think is the better defender Jonathan Joseph or George Lowe?

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Post by Geordie Mon May 28, 2012 8:15 pm

Lowe is a better defender...

If manu is banned...i have no fear of playing either lowe or Joseph...possibly Joseph on Sundays run out..(i know it was only the Baa Baas)

I would cry if i saw Barritt and Farrell named as the centres.


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Post by Zander Mon May 28, 2012 8:19 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Lowe is a better defender...

If manu is banned...i have no fear of playing either lowe or Joseph...possibly Joseph on Sundays run out..(i know it was only the Baa Baas)

I would cry if i saw Barritt and Farrell named as the centres.


Same, it would be a disaster. Crying or Very sad

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Post by yappysnap Mon May 28, 2012 8:27 pm

Most of the English fans would be vomit if it was Farrel/Barritt in the centres, and so we would be on to questioning another England coach...

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Post by Geordie Mon May 28, 2012 8:29 pm

BUt Yappy...why is it that so many of the Engliand coaches appear to have selection issues....

Its so blatantly obvious to all England fans that Farrell and Barritt is just not good enough...so why even play it v the baa baas....

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Post by Zander Mon May 28, 2012 8:31 pm

We should have started 10. Farrell 12. Barritt 13. Joseph from the start of the Baa baa's game. We would have actually seen players in their natural positions.

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Post by yappysnap Mon May 28, 2012 8:38 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:BUt Yappy...why is it that so many of the Engliand coaches appear to have selection issues....

Its so blatantly obvious to all England fans that Farrell and Barritt is just not good enough...so why even play it v the baa baas....

It is mental isn't it Geordie? There's something in the mind set of coaches from England/NH, we've had the same issues with Johnson, Robbo and Ashton too. And now Robbo is doing exactly the same in Scotland.

Monye at FB, Noon and Tindal, Geraghty on the crashball at 12, Balshaw at fb, Banahan in any position going, Moody Moody Moody, Worsley at 7, Tim Payne!

I don't know if it's fear of failure or pressure from boards etc but it's telling that the only coaches who seem to make positive selections are SH coaches (Gatland up here).

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Post by Geordie Mon May 28, 2012 8:40 pm

Absolutely spot on mate.

Its a puzzling one....

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Post by stlowe Mon May 28, 2012 8:57 pm

Zander wrote:Who do people think is the better defender Jonathan Joseph or George Lowe?


Joseph/Lowe in the AP this season

Matches 14/19
Tackles 73/98
Missed Tackles 5/13
Tackles Per Match 5/5
Tackle Success Rate (%) 94/88

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Post by Zander Mon May 28, 2012 9:02 pm

stlowe wrote:
Zander wrote:Who do people think is the better defender Jonathan Joseph or George Lowe?


Joseph/Lowe in the AP this season

Matches 14/19
Tackles 73/98
Missed Tackles 5/13
Tackles Per Match 5/5
Tackle Success Rate (%) 94/88

This surprised me, I always thought Lowe was the better defender. Based on those results I would rather have Joseph at 13 than Lowe as he offers that bit more in attack and looked like he fitted straight into the England team against the Baa baas.

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Post by Cymroglan Mon May 28, 2012 9:10 pm

I did not think the tackle looked that bad in real time.

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Post by stlowe Mon May 28, 2012 9:11 pm

What the stats don't necessarily show is how well they function within a defensive framework. Do their actions create opportunities elsewhere in the defensive line. They also don't show how effective the tackle is, was the player knocked back, was there an offload.

My instinct would be that there isn't a huge amount between them defensively and the deciding factor should be found elsewhere.


Last edited by stlowe on Mon May 28, 2012 9:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by LondonTiger Mon May 28, 2012 9:11 pm

Tigers cut through between JTH and Lowe on a handfull of occasions - who was to blame?

If Manu is out, then sadly i reckon we will see the Hodgson/Farrell/Barritt axis Sad

On a separate note, I wonder who will replace flood in the squad?

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Post by anotherworldofpain Mon May 28, 2012 10:53 pm

How can this be when just last week was saw the tip tackle on Victor Vito which one I post about. In that game tackle was worst one and only sanction was penalty.

One rule for the white man, different rule for the polynesian?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kangq4Y20z0

The fact is hooper just too little to making the full lift but all is there. Lift the knees, tip and driving the head.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon May 28, 2012 11:19 pm

Burns is on standby to replace flood pending fitness

It would be a massive surprise if Tuilagi got a ban long enough to cause him to miss the tour altogether. If he gets one at all Wayne Barnes should just quit till someone writes an instruction he can understand.

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Post by robbo277 Mon May 28, 2012 11:38 pm

It didn't look like a terrible tackle, but it's the type of tackle the IRB are trying to stamp out of the game. I didn't see the Afoa one so I can't make comparisons, but I would be surprised if it was more than 4 weeks.

I think what Lancaster will do will depend on the outcome of the ban. If Tuilagi is just to miss the first test, he might try the "stop gap" approach of having Barritt and Farrell in the centres together for that test and then to bring Manu back in. If Manu is to miss 2 tests or the whole tour, then Lancaster might be forced to look at a natural 13, be it Lowe or Joseph. I would say after his performance against the Barbarians it would be hard to look past Joseph.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Mon May 28, 2012 11:50 pm

I didn't think it was that bad. I thought he put in some shoulder charges that means that a ban might overall be necessary but it's a little harsh and silly of Manu. I hope he doesn't miss the tour. Lowe, like many Quins players, is great at defending where and when it matters, like at Wembley, but will miss a few tackles each match. That's just the way we defend, a similar scramble defence was seen by England this 6N too. I'd play JJ for what it's worth, he'd go better with Barritt.
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Post by EnglishReign Tue May 29, 2012 8:21 am

Who would replace Manu in the squad?

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Post by geoff998rugby Tue May 29, 2012 9:06 am

Cymroglan wrote:I did not think the tackle looked that bad in real time.

Nor did Afoa's.

At the moment anything like a tip tackle is being stamped on hard.
I do not wish Manu ill but if his ban does not match Afoa's I will be furious with the unacceptable inconsistancy

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue May 29, 2012 9:21 am

geoff998rugby wrote:
Cymroglan wrote:I did not think the tackle looked that bad in real time.

Nor did Afoa's.

At the moment anything like a tip tackle is being stamped on hard.
I do not wish Manu ill but if his ban does not match Afoa's I will be furious with the unacceptable inconsistancy

If he gets a ban that doesnt match Vitors (no card no citing) I will be furious with the unacceptable inconsistency

Take a look at this one from hayman a few weeks ago, yellow and a 4 week ban. On another planet to the Tuilagi tackle. Afoa may have been hard done by, but lets not turn this into a witch hunt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf2dyKCwgIQ

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Post by Knackeredknees Tue May 29, 2012 9:23 am

If this continues any good tackle will be cited! Hit the player hard and hit feet leave the floor tue to the tackle momentum and you'll be hung outside RU HQ as a warning.

On the plus side all the armchair fans who only think rugby is about seeing lots of try's will be happy as no one will want to tackle in fear of a citing or it will be touch rugby

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Post by AlastairW Tue May 29, 2012 9:26 am

He'll take the hit for that i'm afraid.

Even as a Quins fan i have to say that there really was no malicious intent to the tacklet at all. When a guy of 17 stone gets a damn good hit on a guy 3-4 stone lighter he's going to come off his feet. That's the physical reality of it, but even with his blood up he put Care down in as controlled a manner as he could, and that just stands as testament to his level headedness.

It is a shame, i like Tuilangi, and the guy had a shocker on Saturday - but the RFU are stamping down hard on anything like this at the moment and for that he'll take 4 weeks i reckon.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue May 29, 2012 9:43 am

Although not a true spear tackle, it's a lot like similar "dangerous" tackles which have all recently recieved bans. I think one of the key things is taking the legs past horizontal which does happen, and then Care does come down on his shoulder, but it wasn't overly malicous just stupid. If the panel also look at some of his other reckless tackles in that game though he could be in trouble.

See I think he ends up coming down on his side rather than his shoulder. Manu puts in the big hit as Care starts to side step and so the momentum sends Care back. To be fair to Manu he keeps hold and delivers Care safely to the ground. There's not even an appeal from the Quins players. I complete non-starter and a ban would be a worse decision than the Ferris YC.

It also raises a couple of other points:

1) the authority of the referees, Wayne Barnes has a perfect view, he clearly says that it is a technically illegal tackle because the hips go above the head but that it's nothing more because "it's not dangerous". If the citing panel go and cite Manu then it completely undermines Barnes and the referees authority to ref a game as a ban would indicate it should have been a straight red card.

2) if bans are going to come in for tackles that are not in the least bit dangerous then they should just ban any lifting of the legs in the tackle and be done with it.

I do not wish Manu ill but if his ban does not match Afoa's I will be furious with the unacceptable inconsistancy

Pfft, when having the citing commission ever been consistent? Hartley got banned for a reaction to being fish hooked purely on the basis of word of mouth despite the 'victim's' story not actually agreeing to his own doctors version of events (Ferris claimed skin was broken and his doctor stated categorically that any damage was superficial and that the skin was unbroken). The citing commissions seem to act more on whim, hearsay and media than anything else.

There will be a ban but not because Manu deserves one, it will be because the media make a fuss about him, his last name is Tuilagi and he plays for Tigers.

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Post by thomh Tue May 29, 2012 9:51 am

The only reason this tackle was remotely safe if because Care stuck is arm out. Otherwise he'd have landed on his head. Hope Manu is available for the tour but wont be surprised if he's not.

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Post by anotherworldofpain Tue May 29, 2012 9:56 am

You need the hard man in your defense line and will make afraid the opposition to run in the channel and there is half the game winning already.

Sometimes you need take the punishment when they are step over the line a little. And accept is also enhance the reputation and make more terrify the other players.

You prefer play Danny Ciprinani at 12 after all?

Would anyone try something funny in the lineout when against Bakkies Botha? or half back attacking the line to Shalk Burger? There is my point.

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Post by beshocked Tue May 29, 2012 10:03 am

Sam I wouldn't say there is a witch hunt for M.Tuilagi but you have to admit his card is firmly marked - due to his quite high profile now and the notorious Ashton punch last season it's hardly surprising.

Other examples are obviously Hartley as you already mentioned but also Delon Armitage.

I haven't seen the incident so can't judge whether M.Tuilagi deserves a ban or not. Anyone got any video evidence of the incident?

Also Sam you mention Barnes. If he only yellow cards M.Tuilagi for a clear punch you would hardly expect him to punish him for a lesser offence ( an illegal tackle).

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue May 29, 2012 10:14 am

thomh wrote:The only reason this tackle was remotely safe if because Care stuck is arm out. Otherwise he'd have landed on his head. Hope Manu is available for the tour but wont be surprised if he's not.

He was side on, the impact wouldve been to the shoulder and side, If anything bring the arm down increases the tip and it brings the center of weight closer to his head...although it did act a break to the speed of the fall (which was fairly slow anyway).

Also looking at the lift only one of cares legs went above the horizontal, although his body position does clealry get tipped.

it was a tip tackle, it was illegal....but it was very much at the lower end of them. It was an attempt at a legal tackle that went wrong because Tuilagi didnt get the drive through he was looking for. Kind of like the Vitor and Ferris ones.

The problem hes got is that theres a high entry point for these tackles, and he wont get it reduced for previous good behaviour. If they decide 9 and its a roll of the dice lets face it) it was worthy of a card then he will probably get 4 weeks which would screw his summer tour. In the long term though that could be good for him, he'll miss the hammerings and get the rest he needs after playing a ridiculous amount of rugby over the last 2 seasons.

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Post by beshocked Tue May 29, 2012 10:25 am

Peter seabiscuit wheeler was the tackle dangerous though?

It would be a strange twist of a fate if he gets a 4 week ban for an illegal tackle that sounds like it would have been a yellow card at most.This in comparison he got 5 weeks ban for a clear punch.

All we want is consistency! If it's a marginal call like it sounds it is then M.Tuilagi shouldn't get banned.

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Manu Tuilagi hit with citing Empty Re: Manu Tuilagi hit with citing

Post by Comfort Tue May 29, 2012 10:40 am

to be fair, this tackle doesnt even really ring any bells. Ill have to rewatch it.

Tuilagi will be judged perhaps slightly more harshly than others, theres a number of reasons for this, some justified, some unjustified.

That, and he's starting to build up a bit of a record with these citings and stupid incidents. He needs to start being very, very careful, going for these huge hits all the time isnt doing him or Tigers any favours.

IF Care's legs went past horizontal, Tuilagi will cop a ban of 4 weeks (or more - probably unjustified) like Afoa did. Dangerous or not, because thats the law and how its enforced.

Although, it grinds me a bit that i watched the game and theres a citing for a dangerous tackle that probably just made me say "ouch, he'd have felt that one" at the time and i havent thought about since.

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Manu Tuilagi hit with citing Empty Re: Manu Tuilagi hit with citing

Post by formerly known as Sam Tue May 29, 2012 10:53 am

Also Sam you mention Barnes. If he only yellow cards M.Tuilagi for a clear punch you would hardly expect him to punish him for a lesser offence ( an illegal tackle).

Barnes didn't see the punches though did he. He asked the TJ for his recomendations and he told Barnes it was a YC to the pair of them. Barnes can't over rule what he can't see and just as with the Davies incident in the 6N if the TJ says it's only a YC then that's what you give.

It would be a strange twist of a fate if he gets a 4 week ban for an illegal tackle that sounds like it would have been a yellow card at most.This in comparison he got 5 weeks ban for a clear punch.

He got 12 weeks for the punch which was halved for previous good behaviour and remorse and then there was another week knocked off due in mitigation for the aggrevation (Ashton's tap with the knee to Manu's face).

That, and he's starting to build up a bit of a record with these citings and stupid incidents

This will be the first citing since the Ashton punch. In that time he jumped off a ferry (stupid), got fined for wearing a mouth guard he'd originally been given by the RFU when he was an England Under 20s player (the England team have kit specialists what were they doing?) and then there was a YC against Clermont which was a tad harsh but understandable from the refs point of view and lack of slow mo replay.

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