Irish U20s: Now and Then

5 years ago saw the launch of the inaugural iRB Junior World Championships. Ireland finished in 9th place in that first year. This year, Ireland will secure their best ever placing with either 5th or 6th place depending on the outcome of their final fixture with France. But as this side is a development tool, let's look at the success of that team from 2008 in terms of the players that have progressed from that team.

From the forwards, only 4 of the 14 are still with Irish provinces (Stephen Archer, Jason Harris-Wright, Ian Nagle and Dave Nolan) while two ply their in the Aviva (Eoin Sherriff and James Sandford). Archer and Nagle have both received A caps but there have been no full caps amongst this group. Ian Nagle is the most likely to play international amongst this group. A note should be made of the captain of the squad, Paul Ryan who had to retire through injury.

In the backs, the numbers are much more pleasing viewing. 6 of the 12 are still contracted to Irish provinces (Eoin O'Malley, David Kearney, Ian Madigan, David Moore, Ian Porter and Sean Scanlon) while Niall Morris and Jamie Smith are with Leicester and the Dragons respectively. O'Malley and Kearney have A caps to their name while there is a lot of excitement at Madigan's development over the past season. Outside of these three there doesn't seem to be much prospects of Irish internationals amongst this group.

Interesting to see how this group has gotten on and it will be interesting to see what happens to the current crop. This is a good group and the 2008 edition is probably one of the weaker groups so I can see more coming through and going further than their counterparts from 5 years ago.

Who are you excited about from this group? JJ Hanrahan? Peter Nelson? Tadgh Furlong? Ian Henderson? Chris Farrell? Luke McGrath? Niall Scannell? Jordan Coghlan? Kieran Marmion?

Personally I'm excited about the future of Irish rugby because with this group and the previous years, I see a lot of talent coming through the system but I'm looking for your thoughts. Over to you 606ers!

Hanaran and Henderson are the two most exciting talents in the country (along with Madigan, O'Mahoney and Kearney jr) in my opinion and I hope they start getting gametime in the Rabo next season.

Some very exciting young players around for sure.

Good to see you back MTBGOG

I think Peter Nelson has had a very good tournament and looked extremely sharp but has not won the same limelight as Henderson and Hanrahan.

Has to be JJ. There are plenty of very good guys in that group. I was impressed with Gilsenan and Nelson a lot. I think Furlong could develop into a very good prop.

One to watch from a younger age group. Seamus Glynn. Another ginger ninja full back! Has played 12 and outhalf for PBC too.

One of the best for me is a player you never mentioned... Jack Conan!
A suberb looking no.8, looks well developed for a lad his age... give him a few more years and he'll be pushing Heaslip and the likes!

red_stag wrote:I think Peter Nelson has had a very good tournament and looked extremely sharp but has not won the same limelight as Henderson and Hanrahan.

This, Nelson looks like a really classy player. Also Furlong (one of the players I am most excited about) and Conan.

The U20's should be getting stronger every season. The provinces are getting the young players bulking up sooner than ever. That helps.

Lots of players being talked up for next seasons U20 team. Looking forward to seeing that.

Bulking up is grand and all but if they don't have the skills, then it's useless.

Most teams now have both bulk AND skills.

MBTGOG wrote:Bulking up is grand and all but if they don't have the skills, then it's useless.

They're not getting blown away like in years gone by.

Speed and skills are a lot more important then being able to do a 300kg squat Rory.

I don't think you would find a rugby player who can do a 400kg squat anyway.. but Thomond you are missing the point. Speed, skills, power, size.. they are not all mutually exclusive things. Most of the best players nowadays have all of those things. It should be expected that a top level player has the skills anyway.

I mean even O'Driscoll is fairly big for his height. At 179cm or so, he is 95kg. He has skills, power, and speed (well, he did have speed).

Plus you are generalising a lot. Is a prop going to find it handier to have a lot of pace, or a lot of size and strength?

Maybe, but it was also O'Driscoll who said that he bulked up too much and actually lost weight because he believed it was affecting his game too much.

There has to be a balance, and it depends on the position. O'Driscoll lost some weight a few seasons ago and he looked much better for it. Obviously he was carrying a bit too much. It completely depends on the player, the position, and the balance between speed/size. Take George North for example. He shouldn't be trying to get any bigger, but he should try and stay at the size he is, because people find it so hard to put him down. He might be faster if he lost a few kgs, but he might not be as hard to tackle.

There is a reason that the likes of South Africa have a certain criteria you must follow to be on the team. It is all done by position too. A prop has to squat a minimum amount of around 180kg or so while a winger would have to squat a much smaller amount. They must be above the minimum though. You can't have underdeveloped players at senior level.

True, but this isn't senior level, this is U20s and the player with the better ball skills should be selected ahead of the bigger guy in my opinion, within reason obviously.

We have bigger and more skilful guys now than we have ever had in the past though. We are no longer outmuscled.

Anyway, going off topic, I think this group of players is an exciting crop, a very exciting group. Add this to some of the other exciting players who have come through in the past few years and I think there is a very bright future ahead.

A related question.

Mike Ruddock.

Is he being groomed for next Irish coach.

red_stag wrote:A related question.

Mike Ruddock.

Is he being groomed for next Irish coach.

No - he always parts his hair like that

red_stag wrote:A related question.

Mike Ruddock.

Is he being groomed for next Irish coach.

Hardly needs grooming with a GS under his belt with Wales and will be more than likely the next coach as he seems to be very popular in IRFU circles.

Bet Rhys is hoping he isn't though (at least until he has a couple of caps under his belt).

red_stag wrote:A related question.

Mike Ruddock.

Is he being groomed for next Irish coach.

It's very possible,I'm not sure how I'd feel about it.The guy has done it at senior level before but I'd be a little wary that he's been out of the very top level for so long,I'm not saying I'd hate to see him appointed just that I'd have some worries.

red_stag wrote:A related question.

Mike Ruddock.

Is he being groomed for next Irish coach.

Yes.

I think he could do quite well with the job given the right support in terms of other coaches.

is mike ruddock also coaching an AIL side? Also Thomond just one small thing I think glynn has only played full back and outside centre, I do agree though he is a very exciting talent. I think he started on the senior cup winning side when he was only in 4th year

One guy forgotten from the group who should be mentioned is Paddy Jackson. Captain in the Junior 6N and but for the intervention of IRFU would surely have been captain in SA. We would definitely have been talking about JJ as a centre in those circumstances.

I have been impressed with Conan at No.8 and I can see a big future but he might have to leave Leinster given the number of good players ahead of him. Henderson will play in the Senior Ireland team within the next two to three years.
Others who will do well I think will be Gilsenan and Marmion.

You think Hendy will make the breakthrough that fast Rava? It would be great if he did, but he has a lot of work to do still IMO. His work rate isn't that great, but he has all the attributes to become a proper international class (at least) second row. Where do you think Conan would go? He also is a real talent, but may struggle to get any game time as you say. As for Marmion, do you rate him over McGrath?

Rava wrote:One guy forgotten from the group who should be mentioned is Paddy Jackson. Captain in the Junior 6N and but for the intervention of IRFU would surely have been captain in SA. We would definitely have been talking about JJ as a centre in those circumstances.

I have been impressed with Conan at No.8 and I can see a big future but he might have to leave Leinster given the number of good players ahead of him. Henderson will play in the Senior Ireland team within the next two to three years.
Others who will do well I think will be Gilsenan and Marmion.

The one back row slot we do need someone is no.8.Ruddock hasn't done much yet and I think 6 is his position if he's going to make it.SoB has nailed down 7 and won't be moving except for the odd game when we're rotating,after that you have Heaslip and Auva'a who are both over 27 so I think Conan could get gametime if he continues to develop.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:You think Hendy will make the breakthrough that fast Rava? It would be great if he did, but he has a lot of work to do still IMO. His work rate isn't that great, but he has all the attributes to become a proper international class (at least) second row. Where do you think Conan would go? He also is a real talent, but may struggle to get any game time as you say. As for Marmion, do you rate him over McGrath?

Yes I do think so Rory. I don't agree with you regarding his workrate. I don't have any stats from the JWC but in each game he has played he has been at the forefront.

About Conan, I don't really know. Obviously he should remain at Leinster for another couple of years and take his chances. If he was with Ulster and in a similar situation with players ahead of him then he would probably be looking at time with a Championship side. Not sure the younger players with the other provinces see this as an option. So Connacht maybe?

I like McGrath but Marmion has impressed and his relationship with JJ has been very good. He has made some very tasty breaks as well. McGrath would box kick too much for me.

It wouldn't really come up in the stats, but me and my brother have been watching the U20s and Hendy in particular (we went to the same school) and we just noticed he tends to stand at the side of a maul or a ruck rather than get stuck in. At his size, he should be knocking people across the pitch in those situations. He needs to show a bit more aggression in the tight exchanges.

Rory, he is a ball carrier. He stands at the side of rucks in attacking play so he is available to pass the ball to. He defends the fringes very well in defence. Not committing to rucks isn't the sign of a low workrate.

He needs to work alongside a second row who does that donkey work though. I'm not sure he and Tuohy could play together.

He was playing at 6 against England, and he's starting there again today. Looks to be a serious prospect to me, if i had to put money on which player would make it to international level first, or at all. It would be Henderson.

Henderson and JJ look ready to start their pro careers.

The 2 scrum halves, Furlong, Gilsenan, Beirne, Scannell, Conan and Farrell look like they have a very good chance to make it in next couple of years.

Coghlan, Merry, Nelson, Horan and Daly look like half decent bets to make it too.

And still wouldn't totally discount a couple of the others!

In conclusion, this looks to be an outstanding batch, i've really enjoyed watching their games and look forward to seeing which ones will actually make it big.

logie28 wrote:Henderson and JJ look ready to start their pro careers.

The 2 scrum halves, Furlong, Gilsenan, Beirne, Scannell, Conan and Farrell look like they have a very good chance to make it in next couple of years.

Coghlan, Merry, Nelson, Horan and Daly look like half decent bets to make it too.

And still wouldn't totally discount a couple of the others!

In conclusion, this looks to be an outstanding batch, i've really enjoyed watching their games and look forward to seeing which ones will actually make it big.

farrell really stood out for me in the backline in the last two games...he is a really powerful ball carrier. I can see conan and gilsenan making appearances in the B&I cup next season

Rava wrote:One guy forgotten from the group who should be mentioned is Paddy Jackson. Captain in the Junior 6N and but for the intervention of IRFU would surely have been captain in SA. We would definitely have been talking about JJ as a centre in those circumstances.

It was Ulster Rugby requested that he not go, not the IRFU. Don't know why they did that, unless they were afraid that Ireland were in for a hammering in their particular group and it would affect his confidence even more.

I must say I was fairly impressed with Scannel as captain. He lead and spoke well - even has a decent boot on him! Must be watching videos of Woody!

anyone know where i can get highlights of the game or even the full game

http://www.tg4.ie/en/tg4-player/tg4-player.html

thanks!