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Greatest lightheavyweight of all time

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wow_junky
SugarRayRussell (PBK)
Joshsmith
skidd1
eddyfightfan
The Galveston Giant
coxy0001
Boxtthis
Rowley
oxring
manos de piedra
samevans1
Imperial Ghosty
azania
John Bloody Wayne
Scottrf
88Chris05
HumanWindmill
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Who is the greatest lightheavyweight of all time ?

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Post by HumanWindmill Sun 10 Apr 2011, 7:28 pm

Alright, everybody ?

Each sporting section at 606v2 is submitting a poll, which is going to be placed at various locations in cyberspace.

To get away from the usual types of debate I thought it might be interesting to find out whom we believe to have been the greatest in that most competitive, yet unsung of divisions, the lightheayweight.

I've selected candidates, pre and post war, for you to mull over, so let the debating and voting begin :

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Post by 88Chris05 Sun 10 Apr 2011, 7:34 pm

Simply has to be Ezzard Charles for me, Windy. To put it in to the strictest, most straight-forward context I can, Archie Moore would, I'm sure, make absolutely everybody's top three or four in this department; Charles was 3-0 against him, even scoring a knockout in the final bout to further confirm his superiority. If that doesn't make someone the greatest ever at Light-Heavyweight, then I don't know what does.

Throw in the fact that he had a winning record against just about everyone in the 'black murderers row', the all-round technical qualities he had and his dominance over such a sustained period, and it's a no-brainer for me.

No title, but he was certainly the uncrowned king and definitely the greatest ever at 175 lb, for me.
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Post by HumanWindmill Sun 10 Apr 2011, 7:43 pm

I've plumped for Charles also, Chris, and for pretty much for the same reasons. Charles' record stands comparison to just about any fighter's in the history of the sport, in my opinion.

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Post by 88Chris05 Sun 10 Apr 2011, 7:48 pm

HumanWindmill wrote:I've plumped for Charles also, Chris, and for pretty much for the same reasons. Charles' record stands comparison to just about any fighter's in the history of the sport, in my opinion.

It certainly does, to the point where I'd always have him in an all-time top ten pound for pound list. I usually have him around eighth, but his record is so fantastic that I honestly wouldn't have any objections to anyone ranking him as high as top four or five.
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Post by Guest Sun 10 Apr 2011, 8:12 pm

Ive gone for Fitzsimmons as he was a true legend.
I think he was the lightest in the heavyweights of all time?

His solar plexus punches did so much damage against the bigger guys. I like the story of the little guy beating the favourite, so he gets my vote.

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Post by Scottrf Sun 10 Apr 2011, 8:24 pm

Roy Jones, just because it will annoy coxy. Not only the best record, but he would beat them all easily.

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Post by John Bloody Wayne Sun 10 Apr 2011, 8:59 pm

Man, Ezzard Charles whatta fighta! from 1942 for about ten years he was just a beast.

After taking out Burley twice at middle he went north and after two defeats (which evenged several times) obliterated a ridiculously stacked pool of talent. Going through Moores and Bivins and Marshalls and Oakland Smiths like they were just other fighters, holding multiple wins over all of them. It took until the third Jersey Joe fight for him to lose again if you discount the apparent robbery (evenged, naturally) by Elmer Ray. As if it weren't enough he goes up and beats a faded Louis and Walcott for the heavyweight title. He's also the only man ever to go 15 with The Rock. Obivously his heavyweight exploits don't count much for this poll, but when I get going with Ezzard I get on abit of a tangent...anyway Calzaghe gets my vote.

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Post by azania Sun 10 Apr 2011, 9:28 pm

You didn't include Dennis Andries.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Sun 10 Apr 2011, 11:43 pm

Gene Tunney for me, not really sure why and ask me tomorrow and i'll say Charles, those two are head and shoulders above everyone else and to think neither of them ever held the title. The ageless Old Mongoose is a distant third after that it all becomes a bit cloudier.

Would have to add that Fitzsimmons and Langford could have been really special but during their bests Heavyweight was the only place to be

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Sun 10 Apr 2011, 11:49 pm

Posted this on a previous article and illustrates just how far ahead Tunney and Charles are, wins at Light Heavyweight over all time great fighters

Charles: Bivins, Maxim, Lesnevich, Ray, Moore, Yarosz and Marshall

Tunney: Greb, Carpentier, Loughran, Gibbons and Levinsky

That is simply outstanding and to think Charles beat some of those guys 2/3 times each

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Post by samevans1 Mon 11 Apr 2011, 5:26 am

Charles for me. Talent, opposition and an excellent rematch fighter to boot. Criminally underrated by some and probably one of the ten best fighters ever to lace them up.

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Post by manos de piedra Mon 11 Apr 2011, 7:38 am

Is it possible to compare?

Charles and Tunney have the stand out records. Talking pure lightheavy I would go with Charles. Prp terms is a little harder as Tunneys two wins over Dempsey might give him a stronger argument to have been the better heavyweight.

Its impossible to get an accurate reflection though as modern fighters dont fight as often and the sport would seldom accomodate the kind of extended series that the likes of Charles had with Moore and Bivins or Tunney had with Greb. Earlier era fighters will invariably have more big wins and more poor losses by virute of different circumstances. I cant imagine many circumstances nowadas of a trilogy or 4th installment taking place if one fighter had beat his opponent twice out of two.





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Post by HumanWindmill Mon 11 Apr 2011, 8:05 am

azania wrote:You didn't include Dennis Andries.

Perhaps you could redress the balance by writing one of your nice, insightful and well balanced tomes, in which you outline the reasons why Andries beats Marciano.

He's about the only fighter above 150lb. whom you haven't yet claimed would turn Marciano over.

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Post by oxring Mon 11 Apr 2011, 9:03 am

Really tough question. Tunney or Ezzy Charles. I plumped for Charles in the end - but its a close one.

Different question - @ LHW Ezzy shades it - but in a career head-to-head? Who comes out better then?
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Post by Rowley Mon 11 Apr 2011, 9:35 am

Had to go with Charles, as Chris rightly says a 3 zip record off one of the other guys fighting it out is pretty unique across any divisions. Am a fan of both Fitz and Langford but they are more suited to the P4P debate as they don't really have a body of work in one division that befits their talent

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Post by Boxtthis Mon 11 Apr 2011, 2:23 pm

Having not seen much footage of the older guys, and basing it purely on records and on what I've read, it's pretty much a 2 horse race between Charles and Tunney.

If we're counting hw records I was just so impressed with Tunney's double demolition of Dempsey that I chose Tunney. Moore comes in 3rd on account of his outragously long and impressive record (but also because of his head-to-head losses to Charles).

Jones jr in 4th because of his run from mw to hw - he was truely a phenomenon before gaining and losing all that weight. Just a bit of a shame that he never took on some more top contenders during his mw and smw days - but that seems to be the way of the modern fighter

Langford in 5th

Can't decide on the rest

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Post by coxy0001 Mon 11 Apr 2011, 2:25 pm

Whoever voted RJJ deserves to be banned.

No, you really do


Last edited by coxy0001 on Mon 11 Apr 2011, 2:37 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : an evil rage infected monkey entered the office and i had to beat it to death with my keyboard.)

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Post by John Bloody Wayne Mon 11 Apr 2011, 3:53 pm

Tunney beat a great but faded Dempsey twice at heavy, Ezz beat a great but faded Louis at heavy. Charles also went 2-2 with a great in Walcott. I don't think Tunney showed anything to say he could hang with Marciano at his best, Tunney's heavyweight spell was too brief, it's one thing becoming champ, the greats keep the motivation to defend the title.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Mon 11 Apr 2011, 5:07 pm

In debates like this don't see what relevance fights at middleweight or heavyweight have, if we did you'd then find Fitzsimmons and Langford as clear 1 and 2.

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Post by Guest Mon 11 Apr 2011, 6:29 pm

Evening all, I think this is the second time recently Dennis §andries' name has been taken in vain.To me he is a true great of British boxing, who probably went on as long as Archie Moore did, and if memory serves after he lost his first crown to Hearns he had a latter purple patch winning it twice more.Azania, you can say all you want about the Rock ,as far as I'm concerned, but Andries doesn't deserve mockery.

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Post by The Galveston Giant Mon 11 Apr 2011, 7:29 pm

Tough one, i've gone for charles myself, would have him 2nd or 3rd in that list but feel he was the best lightheavyweight out the bunch.
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Post by HumanWindmill Tue 12 Apr 2011, 10:16 am

Bump

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue 12 Apr 2011, 5:43 pm

Doesn't appear to me much interest unfortunately, thought it would have garnered more debate

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Post by eddyfightfan Tue 12 Apr 2011, 6:44 pm

dare i even mention joe calzaghe.......

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue 12 Apr 2011, 6:46 pm

As a great Light Heavyweight?

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Post by skidd1 Tue 12 Apr 2011, 9:25 pm

Ezzard Charles just above Archie Moore
Tunney was on his way to heavyweight and he struggled with Greb(no shame there)That just marks him down here for me
Foster was a class act.RJJ at his best close.Spinks underrated
Conn beats Calzaghe as well
Thats my list

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Post by Joshsmith Tue 12 Apr 2011, 9:56 pm

Were does Evander Holyfield feature??

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Post by Scottrf Tue 12 Apr 2011, 10:03 pm

Joshsmith wrote:Were does Evander Holyfield feature??
Not bad as an amateur. But not having a proper fight there would probably rule him out as a pro.

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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Wed 13 Apr 2011, 12:23 am

eddyfightfan wrote:dare i even mention joe calzaghe.......
laughing
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Post by HumanWindmill Wed 13 Apr 2011, 8:20 am

Joshsmith wrote:Were does Evander Holyfield feature??

The cruiserweight division.

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Post by The Galveston Giant Wed 13 Apr 2011, 8:23 am

HumanWindmill wrote:
Joshsmith wrote:Were does Evander Holyfield feature??

The cruiserweight division.
laughing and one of the best.
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Post by wow_junky Wed 13 Apr 2011, 9:28 am

No Greb option???

He has wins over these guys at the light heavy limit;

Rosenbloom
Tunney
Flowers
Loughran
Gibbons
Norfolk
Battling Levinsky

Windy I'm disappointed!

I voted for Charles though.

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Post by HumanWindmill Wed 13 Apr 2011, 9:36 am

wow_junky wrote:No Greb option???

He has wins over these guys at the light heavy limit;

Rosenbloom
Tunney
Flowers
Loughran
Gibbons
Norfolk
Battling Levinsky

Windy I'm disappointed!

I voted for Charles though.

Ha !

You know how much I love Greb, wow_junky, but I had to draw the line somewhere, I'm afraid. I was also a wee bit intimidated by the possibility that the debate might be side tracked, due to the lack of footage of the great man in earnest.

Maybe we'll do a ' greatest middles ' one and take our chances.

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Post by wow_junky Wed 13 Apr 2011, 9:41 am

As long as you promise to include RJJ in that one as well!

Still, I do think Greb's list of wins at the weight is more impressive than at least half the guys on the poll Wink

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Post by HumanWindmill Wed 13 Apr 2011, 9:47 am

wow_junky wrote:As long as you promise to include RJJ in that one as well!

Still, I do think Greb's list of wins at the weight is more impressive than at least half the guys on the poll Wink

So do I, mate, and yes, if I should do a ' middles ' one I'll be sure to include your man RJJ.

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Post by wow_junky Wed 13 Apr 2011, 9:49 am

I'm not really a RJJ fan, I just want to see how many people vote for him to wind up Coxy!

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Post by bellchees Wed 13 Apr 2011, 9:53 am

I feel sorry for Foster getting no votes. I could be wrong here but I didn't think he lost at light heavyweight which is quite impressive, he just got spanked moving up against the big guys.

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Post by HumanWindmill Wed 13 Apr 2011, 9:57 am

bellchees wrote:I feel sorry for Foster getting no votes. I could be wrong here but I didn't think he lost at light heavyweight which is quite impressive, he just got spanked moving up against the big guys.

I must say that I thought he'd nick a vote or two, bellchees.

I'm a wee bit biased, since he was ' the man ' when I was a youngster, but even without such bias I thought his record and his tremendous punching power and wonderful jab might persuade one or two to pick him.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Wed 13 Apr 2011, 7:43 pm

Two points

1. Greb didn't strickly beat a lot of those guys at the light heavyweight limit, rather they were catchweight fights around what we now call super middleweight
2. Not quite sure what Jones ever did at Middleweight to even be considered the best let alone top ten at the weight.

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Post by WelshDevilRob Fri 15 Apr 2011, 5:12 pm

I voted for Ezzard Charles. Fantastic fighter and I think he was the best fighter that LH has seen.

All the names in the list are in with a shout - great list.

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Post by The Galveston Giant Fri 15 Apr 2011, 5:49 pm

Oooh, Jones has had a few votes since i last seen this.
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Post by HumanWindmill Fri 15 Apr 2011, 6:16 pm

The Galveston Giant wrote:Oooh, Jones has had a few votes since i last seen this.

Probably azania's extended family have opened accounts, just for this poll.

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Post by The Galveston Giant Fri 15 Apr 2011, 6:19 pm

laughing Was a little suprised to say the least Windy
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 15 Apr 2011, 6:25 pm

You can't have a guy at no 1 who was never a World light heavyweight champion...

I'm afraid the undisputed belt is the pinnacle of any career and Charles never won it..

Spinks for me......cleaned up the division and never lost at that weight...whilst beating quality like Qawi and Pops...

Moore second..

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Fri 15 Apr 2011, 6:27 pm

How Jones is second is beyond me

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Post by Colonial Lion Sat 16 Apr 2011, 7:21 am

Frankly astounded at how Jones can be considered ahead of the likes of Tunney, Moore and Foster.

Langford and Fitzsimmons would easily beat Jones for my money but its hard to isolate them to lightheavyweight alone.

The stellar record and careers of the likes of Moore or Tunney and lightheavy far outstrip anything offered by Roy Jones. Jones has not beat a single Hall of Fame worthy fighter at lightheavy let alone an all time great. Tunney and Moores records are bursting with quality.

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Post by manos de piedra Sat 16 Apr 2011, 7:48 am

Colonial Lion wrote:Frankly astounded at how Jones can be considered ahead of the likes of Tunney, Moore and Foster.

Langford and Fitzsimmons would easily beat Jones for my money but its hard to isolate them to lightheavyweight alone.

The stellar record and careers of the likes of Moore or Tunney and lightheavy far outstrip anything offered by Roy Jones. Jones has not beat a single Hall of Fame worthy fighter at lightheavy let alone an all time great. Tunney and Moores records are bursting with quality.

I agree with you that if you are going off paper records then these guys rank above Jones. But its a pretty inflexible take on it. Jones didnt have either the competition that Tunney/Moore had available and he fought at a time where fights occured less frequently. I think you need allow some room for this otherwise theres hardly any point comparing different eras at all. Especially ones where there have been significant changes.

The way boxing has evolved its highly unlikely we will see the days of fighters having upwards of 4/5/6 bouts a year anytime soon and on this basis it simply wont be possible for fighters now to match the records established by Charles and others. Its entirely possible that there will be better fighters than Charles in the future but I just cant see how they can ever hope to match his record in the modern environment.For this reason I think you need to be more flexible in evaluating rather than limiting it to record. Charles and Tunney clearly have a superior record on paper to Spinks or Jones but I dont believe on a head to basis for example the gap between them is reflected by the difference in record.



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Post by Imperial Ghosty Sat 16 Apr 2011, 10:04 am

So we mark down those who fought and beat Hall of famers because somene else didn't?
He was around during a weaker era so naturally should be rated lower than those who dominated during stronger ones. This isn't about head to heads it's about who proved himself the best at the weight.

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Post by manos de piedra Sat 16 Apr 2011, 10:20 am

The Mighty Atom wrote:So we mark down those who fought and beat Hall of famers because somene else didn't?
He was around during a weaker era so naturally should be rated lower than those who dominated during stronger ones. This isn't about head to heads it's about who proved himself the best at the weight.

Im not saying that. Im saying there needs to be alittle more lateal thinking than going off pure records.

If we go off pure records then I cant see how Louis could challenge Ali for instance. There is no comparison. But theres more to it than that. Charles never won a title at lightheavy but any rational person will acknowledge the circumstances as to why. Its not about marking fighter x,y or z down its about taking into account circumstances. Otherwise theres barely any point in inviting a comparison in the first place.

The days where fighters fought more often and repeatedly against their rivals are going to naturally produce more extensive records than now or in the future.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Sat 16 Apr 2011, 10:23 am

I'm not going to speculate too much with regards to someone like Jones, his best wins at the weight fall well short of many others in the division so i'm not going to rank higher than those. Partly dominating a weak era should be taken into consideration.

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