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Bresnan or Finn agianst SA ?

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msp83
Fists of Fury
LivinginItaly
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Mike Selig
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Duty281
ShankyCricket
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Shelsey93
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Bresnan or Finn agianst SA ? Empty Bresnan or Finn agianst SA ?

Post by skyeman Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:06 am

For me, i would stick with Bresnan who gives a more balanced feel to the side and every single Test he has played in, England have won. His bowling average is very similar to Finn's and his batting average is on a different level.

Finn's been excellent in ODI's recently but for me he is not quite the finished article yet.

Any thoughts.


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Post by Shelsey93 Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:34 am

skyeman wrote:For me, i would stick with Bresnan who gives a more balanced feel to the side and every single Test he has played in, England have won. His bowling average is very similar to Finn's and his batting average is on a different level.

Finn's been excellent in ODI's recently but for me he is not quite the finished article yet.

Any thoughts.


OK No reason to drop Bresnan right now... he is a top performer.

Just on a point of information, his winning record was (rather cruelly) ended by the rain-soaked draw at Edgbaston. But he still hasn't experienced defeat.

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Post by guildfordbat Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:04 am

Hi Skye - like Shelsey, I see no reason to drop Bresnan. He's a proven performer who is continuing to deliver.

That may appear tough on Finn but it's increasingly becoming a squad game and he'll certainly get further chances.

As an aside, another of Bresnan's one time rivals, Chris Tremlett, has a long way to go to get back in contention for an England recall - see the excellent posts today of Chichester and the Corporal on the ''Surrey v Lancs'' thread.

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Post by mystiroakey Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:10 am

id robally go with finn - just

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Post by skyeman Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:30 am

Shelsey93 wrote:
skyeman wrote:For me, i would stick with Bresnan who gives a more balanced feel to the side and every single Test he has played in, England have won. His bowling average is very similar to Finn's and his batting average is on a different level.

Finn's been excellent in ODI's recently but for me he is not quite the finished article yet.

Any thoughts.


OK No reason to drop Bresnan right now... he is a top performer.

Just on a point of information, his winning record was (rather cruelly) ended by the rain-soaked draw at Edgbaston. But he still hasn't experienced defeat.

Thank you Shelsey, normally i am on the ball when it comes to cricket, but have been away for a while (not in prison) Laugh One stat i would have liked Bressy to have kept going into such an important series.

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Post by hodge Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:39 am

Finn for me, he's an out an out wicket taker which is what we should have against South Africa.

His strike rate is a good bit lower than Bresnan's and latest article I saw was Bresnan fighting to be fit? I wouldn't want Bresnan playing if he wasn't guaranteed 100% fit if you have Finn who is in good form waiting in the wings.

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Post by ShankyCricket Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:08 am

Onions!

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Post by Guest Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:08 am

how many different threads do we need for the same topic picard

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Post by skyeman Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:09 am

But, in favour of Bresnan is a far superior economy rate than that of Finn whom on occassion can be erratic and can let the moment go.

Coupled with the batting, Bressy for me gets the edge if injury free.

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Post by skyeman Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:11 am

CF wrote:how many different threads do we need for the same topic picard

Have we had a thread for Bresnan v Finn against SA CF Very Happy

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Post by Guest Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:12 am

Dominc cork!!

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Post by ShankyCricket Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:12 am

CF wrote:how many different threads do we need for the same topic picard

Quoting you

if you dont like the thread, dont comment. Very Happy

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Post by Guest Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:14 am

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:
CF wrote:how many different threads do we need for the same topic picard

Quoting you

if you dont like the thread, dont comment. Very Happy


fair play clap

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Post by ShankyCricket Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:16 am

For me, its Finn vs Onions rather than Finn vs Bresnan.

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Post by skyeman Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:19 am

Onions, don't make me cry Very Happy

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Post by Guest Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:19 am

drumroll

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Post by Duty281 Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:23 am

Both. Prior at 6, Bresnan at 7, Finn at 11. Our batting is good enough for that on home soil.

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Post by ShankyCricket Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:31 am

Onions outbowled these 2 by a mile at Edgbaston. Seems rather silly not to have him as a part of the discussion.

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Post by skyeman Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:36 am

Duty281 wrote:Both. Prior at 6, Bresnan at 7, Finn at 11. Our batting is good enough for that on home soil.

Not disagreeing about the batting potential, but England are only ever going to go with four front-line bowlers at home.

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:59 am

skyeman wrote: Thank you Shelsey, normally i am on the ball when it comes to cricket, but have been away for a while (not in prison) Laugh
Skyeman - How did the diversity training go? Wink

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Post by skyeman Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:06 am

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:
skyeman wrote: Thank you Shelsey, normally i am on the ball when it comes to cricket, but have been away for a while (not in prison) Laugh
Skyeman - How did the diversity training go? Wink

Laugh My dancing has improved ten-fold, a little bit more practice and i could replace that wee fella in the troupe. Smile

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Post by Mike Selig Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:46 pm

This debate was surely put to bed by Bresnan's efforts against the West Indies.

Bresnan is currently the man in possession. Finn has carried on his excellent one-day form, but if England went with Bresnan against the Windies then they'll at least start with Bresnan for the SA series.

Let's not open up the 5 bowlers debate again...

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Post by ShankyCricket Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:48 pm

Mike Selig wrote:This debate was surely put to bed by Bresnan's efforts against the West Indies.

Bresnan is currently the man in possession. Finn has carried on his excellent one-day form, but if England went with Bresnan against the Windies then they'll at least start with Bresnan for the SA series.

Let's not open up the 5 bowlers debate again...
Who would you pick though?

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Post by Mike Selig Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:51 pm

I would have picked Finn against the West Indies because I think he's got the potential to be an all-time great.

However Bresnan arguably fits in better in the team, his batting can't be discounted and given how he bowled against the West Indies I'd probably stick with him now.

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Post by mystiroakey Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:52 pm

when we are talking about only 4 main bowlers we have to discount batting in my pov

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Post by chrisss Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:54 pm

It's not exactly a bad problem to have is it? Very Happy I would love to see Finn in the team, but I can't see how you can drop Bresnan.

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Post by LivinginItaly Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:55 pm

Bresnan is the man in possession, Finn has the potential to be one of our best ever bowlers. Think I would like the selectors to keep with their consistent selection policy at least for the first two tests and pick bresnan. However, I think that Finn will be in the team by the end of the series, either for bresnan or as an injury (or rotation policy) replacement.

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Post by mystiroakey Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:58 pm

thing is Jimmy is arguably the best bowler in the world(him or styn), swann is the best spinner, broad is also well up there, bresnan also has great figures,

but in all honesty finn could be better than all of them!!! so its a shame , but it is a good debate

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Post by Fists of Fury Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:06 am

Let's not get too carried away with Finny. He is an excellent young fast bowler, and could well develop in to a truly world class one, but I wouldn't go as far as to say he can be better than Anderson already. Jimmy is the most naturally talented bowler in world cricket, for my money, a real rare talent.

Bresnan has to play for me, he is after all the man in possession, but Finn's knocking on that door is getting ever louder. His time will come.

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Post by LivinginItaly Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:08 am

Totally agree mystiroakey.


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Post by LivinginItaly Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:10 am

Maybe the selectors would prefer going back to the days of deciding whether to play Peter Martin, Caddick, or Devon Malcolm. Surely those days were easier as it didn't really matter who we picked. The result would still be the same Very Happy

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Post by Shelsey93 Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:14 am

Agree with Fists that we shouldn't hype Finn too much. He has produced some great ODI efforts but in all honesty he was quite average in the Tests he's played in the last year or so, which is why he hasn't held down a place. Before then he was going OK, before being overtaken in Australia.

I'd rather see him have to wait a while for his opportunity, and then really grab it, than be given a chance now ahead of more experienced and extremely successful bowlers.

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Post by ShankyCricket Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:57 am

I certainly wont say Finn can be better than Jimmy already. But at the end of their careers, thats a distinct possibility.
Fair to say that at his age, Finn is a fair bit better than Jimmy was.

Lets see. Finn's test record is certainly not as average, as people are making it out to be. And Bresnan averaged over 30 against the Windies. Not bad but hardly figures that would make him undroppable. I can see the logic behind picking Bresnan but I dont think its a case of him being undroppable. I think he has been below average this summer.
Personally I wouldnt pick either of them at the moment. Onions has been excellent in CC and outbowled both these guys at Edgbaston.

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Post by msp83 Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:19 pm

Finn is a major prospect for England, and his overall test record is pretty sharp, the only worrying part is theruns that he tends to give away. But in ODI cricket he has established himself as England's best bowler along side Graeme Swann. But Bresnan hasn't done a lot wrong to be dropped, and his batting is another advantage. Also it has to be considered that Finn hasn't done great in his recent test matches.
So I'll start the SA series with Bresnan, but Finn would be there or there about all the time.

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Post by Carrotdude Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:24 pm

I know Bresnan did well against Windies but Finn should 100% be playing imo. He looked our best bowler in the recent ODI's and has improved loads and is a much better bowler than Bresnan (imo). In fact, I actually think Finn is better than Broad right now who seems to have lost some zip. I know Bresnan will play but I think it will be a mistake.

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Post by msp83 Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:05 am

Despite his decent showing against the West Indies in the test series, I have a feeling Bresnan hasn't quite recaptured the kind of zip and nip that made him a major threat in Australia and even the sub-continent. Downunder, his pace was always up in the mid to even late 80 MPH mark, but now that is certainly down. He's not a big swinger of the ball anyways, without enough pace his effectiveness might be reduced against a fine batting lineup like that of South Africa. And if he's not 100 %, I'd most certainly opt for Finn in his place.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:16 am

Before he went to Aus people thought a tin of custard would have made a better bowler than Bresnan. Hes never let England down since, and has the best figures of any of the English bowlers over the last year I believe. In theory hes a county trundler and only got selected because everyone else broke, in reality hes a massively effective first change seamer, ranked 14th in the ICC bowlers and 8th in the all rounders list.
Its hard to see how he can be displaced when Englands bowling hasnt been a problem, and their batting has, His runs do make a difference, we know for sure he is better in that regard...in the bowling we only think Finn might be better.

Perhaps conditions may make the choice easier. On a fast bouncy pitch maybe England will want more of a pure paceman, but I still think its more likely that Bresnan will get the first test at least.

Poor Onions as well, he would get straight in most test teams. Now hes only in the 13 because Tremlett has been out for so long.

Not a bad problem to have

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Post by msp83 Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:01 pm

Any news on Bresnan's elbow troubles?

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Post by skyeman Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:13 am

England have one selection issue to resolve. The identity of the third seamer remains unclear, with Steven Finn, in particular, pressing hard for inclusion ahead of Tim Bresnan. If Bresnan is fully fit - and it is open to debate whether he has ever recovered full pace since undergoing elbow surgery in early December - then his superior batting will ensure his selection. If Bresnan is unable to hit the bat as hard as he used to in net sessions over the next 24 hours, however, Finn may yet still play. It is a strong side that can afford to omit such a fast bowler.


This will be the the deciding factor i feel.

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Post by DouglasJardinesbox Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:26 am

Last Test:

TB 3-111 (off 34 overs)
SF 3-109 (off 32 overs)

Finn hardly showed his superiority then, did he? But as some may remember, I'd drop batter 6 and play Finn. Oh dear, what have I started...

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Post by Liam Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:31 am

You know me guys i'm a massive Finn fan and I think he should be a nailed down starter. Only have to watch his ODI performances so far to see how good he is and can be.

However, wouldn't begrudge Bresnan playing. He's been superb so far and although suspect at times vs WI he came good. Also I think Strauss and Flower will want a long tail if the SA bowling attack clicks, especially if Bopara continues his Test form rather than his ODI form.

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Post by skyeman Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:37 am

That is why Bressy is a cert Very Happy

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Post by Liam Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:42 am

Yup, Finn's time will come. Hope it will be sooner rather than later. I think if the pitch at the Oval does have some pace and bounce I would like to see Finn play.

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Post by skyeman Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:59 am

The Oval is traditonally a batsman's pitch, can only ever see England going with a four-prong attack and the extra value of Bresnans batting, a cert for me.

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Post by skyeman Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:30 am

In the last five year's of Test matches at the Oval, England have chosen a four man bowling attack, with Flintoff being an all-rounder in two of those. I really can not see England changing anything this time around.

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