Lions 1 Year Out Captain Poll

First topic message reminder :

Just a little aside from Rava's article. Would be interested to see if we can call this right, 1 year out, especially when you consider the massive role the coming season has in relation to selection. Let me know if you want anyone added to poll.

Sin é wrote:

dublin_dave wrote:scottish lineout has got the better of the irish lineout plenty of times over the last 2/3 years.

they were poor at the aviva this year though

Scotland were far more effective with Hamilton & Kellock as locks (and Hines as Blindside gave them another option).

Scotland got the better of Ireland once (2011) - and that was Gray's first start against Ireland. Since then, Ireland seem to have them figured out.

Interesting that in a tribute to Gray on youtube its all of him in the loose. There is one clip of him claiming a lineout (against France and it was a Scotland throw). If you look at a Vic Matfield tribute, you will see him soaring into the air stealing lineouts as well as doing all the other stuff.

Oh, nobody told me it was comedy hour on v2?!?! Have you got any other jokes, Sin?

But you are right, we should all judge players on their tribute videos - v sensible idea

caoimhincentre wrote:

Sin é wrote:

dublin_dave wrote:scottish lineout has got the better of the irish lineout plenty of times over the last 2/3 years.

they were poor at the aviva this year though

Scotland were far more effective with Hamilton & Kellock as locks (and Hines as Blindside gave them another option).

Scotland got the better of Ireland once (2011) - and that was Gray's first start against Ireland. Since then, Ireland seem to have them figured out.

Interesting that in a tribute to Gray on youtube its all of him in the loose. There is one clip of him claiming a lineout (against France and it was a Scotland throw). If you look at a Vic Matfield tribute, you will see him soaring into the air stealing lineouts as well as doing all the other stuff.

oh well if a tribute video only has one clip of him claiming a lightout ball he must rubbish. any clips of him scrummaging???

Not one, caoimhincentre, which proves that he is even worse at that

Who does every player look up to/respect the most?

Without doubt its BOD and POC.

Not sure if BOD will start but I'm fairly sure if POC can keep fit he will start along with Gray.

POC to be captain!

Sin é wrote:I think the lineout clip was put there to help people realise that he is a lock and not a back I can't think of any other reason why you'd show someone claiming a lineout as front jumper on your own throw.

Matfield's lineouts feature when he is up against (and getting the better of) O'Connell

Cos that's what he does very effectively, efficiently and quite a lot of times (ie most) in the 6Ns? No? Nah, you're right Sin

Who cares if Gray isn't that great in the lineout anyway. He's 6'10 for christ's sake and he's the best 4 in Europe and probably the world by a mile at this moment in time. He's a shoe in for the Lions and will probably be paired with POC or AWJ.

Sin é wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:You do know Gray is only 22....... he'll learn about disrupting opposition lineouts with experience.

I'm sure he will, but he won't be world class until he does. He isn't a guaranteed starter for the Lions until he sorts that out as he would need to be paired with a more technical lineout operator and would be very dependent on how many ball carriers were in the team.

Complete and utter nonsense, it's not even worth my while refuting this crap in any detail

Sin é wrote:

gowales wrote:So Sin e, are you saying that Ryan should start for the Lions ahead of Gray?

if yes

Nope (though Ryan is a better all-round player).

Confirmation that it is indeed comedy hour

Sin é wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:You do know Gray is only 22....... he'll learn about disrupting opposition lineouts with experience.

I'm sure he will, but he won't be world class until he does. He isn't a guaranteed starter for the Lions until he sorts that out as he would need to be paired with a more technical lineout operator and would be very dependent on how many ball carriers were in the team.

Under that logic I would really like to know who you think should start instead of Gray.

Furthermore Gray won every line out thrown at him in the 6N, he also disrupted or spoiled 4 oppositions lineouts..... thats almost one a match. Not a bad effort IMO.

Finally I can only assume you don't watch much of what Richie Gray does for Glasgow or as a matter of fact scorland if you think Ryan is a better rounded player.

To suggest he is isn't a clash of opinions as I see alot of that on her and welcome it. To say Ryan is better than Gray though is just lunacy.

Give any club in the world the pick of either Ryan or Gray and I think you'll get your response to that one.

Stephen Ireland's wig wrote:Who does every player look up to/respect the most?

Without doubt its BOD and POC.

Not sure if BOD will start but I'm fairly sure if POC can keep fit he will start along with Gray.

POC to be captain!

Will either of them tour though, I think both are and have been immense in the past but i Think this maybe one tour to far for BOD at least.

gowales wrote:

Sin é wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:You do know Gray is only 22....... he'll learn about disrupting opposition lineouts with experience.

I'm sure he will, but he won't be world class until he does. He isn't a guaranteed starter for the Lions until he sorts that out as he would need to be paired with a more technical lineout operator and would be very dependent on how many ball carriers were in the team.

So what about Brad Thorn? He was pretty crap at winning front of the lineout ball, never mind stealing it from the opposition.

He's not world class according to your rules

I'm not sure Thorn would make it as world class if he was starting out now. He certainly isn't a world class lineout operator and lucky that NZ were never big into set-piece play. Thorn is good, but I've don't think he would be regarded in the Top 3/4 locks in recent recent times with Matfield, B Botha, POC, Pelous all ahead of him.

Well you've got your own opinion Sin e and i respect that. But i disagree with you tenfolds.

Not to mention that Thorn is too short to be a lock by your normal definition?! Laughable

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:You do know Gray is only 22....... he'll learn about disrupting opposition lineouts with experience.

I'm sure he will, but he won't be world class until he does. He isn't a guaranteed starter for the Lions until he sorts that out as he would need to be paired with a more technical lineout operator and would be very dependent on how many ball carriers were in the team.

Under that logic I would really like to know who you think should start instead of Gray.

Furthermore Gray won every line out thrown at him in the 6N, he also disrupted or spoiled 4 oppositions lineouts..... thats almost one a match. Not a bad effort IMO.

Finally I can only assume you don't watch much of what Richie Gray does for Glasgow or as a matter of fact scorland if you think Ryan is a better rounded player.

To suggest he is isn't a clash of opinions as I see alot of that on her and welcome it. To say Ryan is better than Gray though is just lunacy.

Give any club in the world the pick of either Ryan or Gray and I think you'll get your response to that one.

Where did you get your stats. According to ESPN he didn't spoil any opposition ball.

I've said that Gray is exceptionally good in the loose, but he is deficient in the lineout for such a tall bloke. Ryan is a better all rounder.

Leinster made an offer for Ryan, I don't think they made one for Gray, otherwise he would surely be there rather than going to Sale.

Sin é wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:You do know Gray is only 22....... he'll learn about disrupting opposition lineouts with experience.

I'm sure he will, but he won't be world class until he does. He isn't a guaranteed starter for the Lions until he sorts that out as he would need to be paired with a more technical lineout operator and would be very dependent on how many ball carriers were in the team.

Under that logic I would really like to know who you think should start instead of Gray.

Furthermore Gray won every line out thrown at him in the 6N, he also disrupted or spoiled 4 oppositions lineouts..... thats almost one a match. Not a bad effort IMO.

Finally I can only assume you don't watch much of what Richie Gray does for Glasgow or as a matter of fact scorland if you think Ryan is a better rounded player.

To suggest he is isn't a clash of opinions as I see alot of that on her and welcome it. To say Ryan is better than Gray though is just lunacy.

Give any club in the world the pick of either Ryan or Gray and I think you'll get your response to that one.

Where did you get your stats. According to ESPN he didn't spoil any opposition ball.

I've said that Gray is exceptionally good in the loose, but he is deficient in the lineout for such a tall bloke. Ryan is a better all rounder.

Leinster made an offer for Ryan, I don't think they made one for Gray, otherwise he would surely be there rather than going to Sale.

Sin, you're making a joke of yourself, do you have any idea what Richie Gray's reasons for moving to Sale were, what things were important to him, or even any clue as to whether Leinster approached him or not?

He had an offer from Toulouse.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Sin, you're making a joke of yourself, do you have any idea what Richie Gray's reasons for moving to Sale where, what things were important to him, or even any clue as to whether Leinster approached him or not?

Well, since its common knowledge that Toulouse approached him, why wouldn't we know if Leinster approached him, bearing in mind that they are in dire need of a top class lock.

Sin é wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:You do know Gray is only 22....... he'll learn about disrupting opposition lineouts with experience.

I'm sure he will, but he won't be world class until he does. He isn't a guaranteed starter for the Lions until he sorts that out as he would need to be paired with a more technical lineout operator and would be very dependent on how many ball carriers were in the team.

Under that logic I would really like to know who you think should start instead of Gray.

Furthermore Gray won every line out thrown at him in the 6N, he also disrupted or spoiled 4 oppositions lineouts..... thats almost one a match. Not a bad effort IMO.

Finally I can only assume you don't watch much of what Richie Gray does for Glasgow or as a matter of fact scorland if you think Ryan is a better rounded player.

To suggest he is isn't a clash of opinions as I see alot of that on her and welcome it. To say Ryan is better than Gray though is just lunacy.

Give any club in the world the pick of either Ryan or Gray and I think you'll get your response to that one.

Where did you get your stats. According to ESPN he didn't spoil any opposition ball.

I've said that Gray is exceptionally good in the loose, but he is deficient in the lineout for such a tall bloke. Ryan is a better all rounder.

Leinster made an offer for Ryan, I don't think they made one for Gray, otherwise he would surely be there rather than going to Sale.

According to ESPN there are 7 opposition lineouts in games versus Scotland for the 2012 6Ns that are unattributed to any one player - I'm willing to guess Gray can claim a fairly high percentage of those from spoiling and being such a presence at the front, not to mention those that he is credited with. According to the same source, he was the second most secure lineout resource in the 6Ns, just behind Ian Evans - that's some 'deficiency' alright?!

Sin é wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Sin, you're making a joke of yourself, do you have any idea what Richie Gray's reasons for moving to Sale where, what things were important to him, or even any clue as to whether Leinster approached him or not?

Well, since its common knowledge that Toulouse approached him, why wouldn't we know if Leinster approached him, bearing in mind that they are in dire need of a top class lock.

so more concrete evidence there Sine. Leinster didnt go for. therefore he is not a good lineout operator.

Have a quick look at the posts going around. if everyone is disagreeing with you are we all wrong. or is it that you are so stubborn that you wont change your mind. or maybe you just dont know much about rugby

Sin é wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Sin, you're making a joke of yourself, do you have any idea what Richie Gray's reasons for moving to Sale where, what things were important to him, or even any clue as to whether Leinster approached him or not?

Well, since its common knowledge that Toulouse approached him, why wouldn't we know if Leinster approached him, bearing in mind that they are in dire need of a top class lock.

Common knowledge (ie rumoured in the Rugby Paper), but unfortunately wrong:

Toulouse president René Bouscatel reacts and he dismisses the rumour : "Richie Gray is a very good player but we never got in touch with him. I know he has signed for Sale, so he isn't in talks with us, directly or indirectly."

http://www.stadetoulousain.fr/Entretien_avec_le_President_Bouscatel-49-3563.html

caoimhincentre wrote:

Sin é wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Sin, you're making a joke of yourself, do you have any idea what Richie Gray's reasons for moving to Sale where, what things were important to him, or even any clue as to whether Leinster approached him or not?

Well, since its common knowledge that Toulouse approached him, why wouldn't we know if Leinster approached him, bearing in mind that they are in dire need of a top class lock.

so more concrete evidence there Sine. Leinster didnt go for. therefore he is not a good lineout operator.

Have a quick look at the posts going around. if everyone is disagreeing with you are we all wrong. or is it that you are so stubborn that you wont change your mind. or maybe you just dont know much about rugby

Sin is doing his best to convince us that is the case on this thread, but then I suspect he does know a fair bit about Munster rugby, perhaps just not much else, which given as it isn't on his radar, maybe he's simply not interested - at least that would explain why he believes that Donncha Ryan is a better lock

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Not to mention that Thorn is too short to be a lock by your normal definition?! Laughable

Gas that his NZ replacement is 6'8"

Sin é wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Not to mention that Thorn is too short to be a lock by your normal definition?! Laughable

Gas that his NZ replacement is 6'8"

Are you suggesting that NZ "replaced" Thorn with a bigger lock simply because of height? So Thorn's retiring would have had no bearing on their need to find a new lock? Are you getting dizzy from all the circles that you keep going around in?

caoimhincentre wrote:

Sin é wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Sin, you're making a joke of yourself, do you have any idea what Richie Gray's reasons for moving to Sale where, what things were important to him, or even any clue as to whether Leinster approached him or not?

Well, since its common knowledge that Toulouse approached him, why wouldn't we know if Leinster approached him, bearing in mind that they are in dire need of a top class lock.

so more concrete evidence there Sine. Leinster didnt go for. therefore he is not a good lineout operator.

Have a quick look at the posts going around. if everyone is disagreeing with you are we all wrong. or is it that you are so stubborn that you wont change your mind. or maybe you just dont know much about rugby

RugbyRadge made this point: Give any club in the world the pick of either Ryan or Gray and I think you'll get your response to that one.

My response is that one club Leinster who needs a top lock made an offer for Ryan who decided stay with Munster (which is neither here nor there other than Leinster seem to rate him), while Gray was overlooked. Its not as if Leinster couldn't have accommodated him as a NIQ either.

It will be interesting to see how Mushy & himself work out in the scrum for Sale.

Sin é wrote:

caoimhincentre wrote:

Sin é wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Sin, you're making a joke of yourself, do you have any idea what Richie Gray's reasons for moving to Sale where, what things were important to him, or even any clue as to whether Leinster approached him or not?

Well, since its common knowledge that Toulouse approached him, why wouldn't we know if Leinster approached him, bearing in mind that they are in dire need of a top class lock.

so more concrete evidence there Sine. Leinster didnt go for. therefore he is not a good lineout operator.

Have a quick look at the posts going around. if everyone is disagreeing with you are we all wrong. or is it that you are so stubborn that you wont change your mind. or maybe you just dont know much about rugby

RugbyRadge made this point: Give any club in the world the pick of either Ryan or Gray and I think you'll get your response to that one.

My response is that one club Leinster who needs a top lock made an offer for Ryan who decided stay with Munster (which is neither here nor there other than Leinster seem to rate him), while Gray was overlooked. Its not as if Leinster couldn't have accommodated him as a NIQ either.

It will be interesting to see how Mushy & himself work out in the scrum for Sale.

Sin, pls stop making things up - you have absolutely NO IDEA that this was the case - you're doing yourself no credit here, fella

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Sin é wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Not to mention that Thorn is too short to be a lock by your normal definition?! Laughable

Gas that his NZ replacement is 6'8"

Are you suggesting that NZ "replaced" Thorn with a bigger lock simply because of height? So Thorn's retiring would have had no bearing on their need to find a new lock? Are you getting dizzy from all the circles that you keep going around in?

No. I don't know where you got the idea that I don't know that Thorn has retired internationally.

The point is though that there will be very few international locks under 6'6" from now on. POC is actually one of the smallest now.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Sin é wrote:

caoimhincentre wrote:

Sin é wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Sin, you're making a joke of yourself, do you have any idea what Richie Gray's reasons for moving to Sale where, what things were important to him, or even any clue as to whether Leinster approached him or not?

Well, since its common knowledge that Toulouse approached him, why wouldn't we know if Leinster approached him, bearing in mind that they are in dire need of a top class lock.

so more concrete evidence there Sine. Leinster didnt go for. therefore he is not a good lineout operator.

Have a quick look at the posts going around. if everyone is disagreeing with you are we all wrong. or is it that you are so stubborn that you wont change your mind. or maybe you just dont know much about rugby

RugbyRadge made this point: Give any club in the world the pick of either Ryan or Gray and I think you'll get your response to that one.

My response is that one club Leinster who needs a top lock made an offer for Ryan who decided stay with Munster (which is neither here nor there other than Leinster seem to rate him), while Gray was overlooked. Its not as if Leinster couldn't have accommodated him as a NIQ either.

It will be interesting to see how Mushy & himself work out in the scrum for Sale.

Sin, pls stop making things up - you have absolutely NO IDEA that this was the case - you're doing yourself no credit here, fella

Use your cop on. Leinster have plenty of ball carriers, they don't need any more. They need an enforcer/lineout technician lock who can scrummage.

edit: and they have been combing the High Veldt for one.

AsLongAs - I wouldn't even bother, he will carry on like this forever.

Sin - Somehow you never fail to surprise me.

Sin, sorry, I've had a bellyfull of your misleading conjecture, ducking answering direct questions, adding 2+2 and gettnig 5, I'm out of here. Have a good rest of your day

A Munster fanboy at his finest

Ah see Sin has been endearing himself to fans on an international basis. Fair play.

To ascertain that the player who won more lineouts than any other player in a tournament, didn’t win enough lineouts is to say that every lock in that tournament also didn’t win enough. So basically, everyone is crap, but Gray is less crap than everyone else.

And also Sin, you don’t spoil the opposition throw on an attacking lineout, you spoil it on a defensive lineout, attacking lineouts are on your own throw. Pretty big oversight that you’ve missed in several posts.

I'd love Gray at Leinster.

Although I have to say Ryan had a brilliant season. Wouldn't mind if Leinster had both of them.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I'd love Gray at Leinster.

Although I have to say Ryan had a brilliant season. Wouldn't mind if Leinster had both of them.

+1

Mickado wrote:Ah see Sin has been endearing himself to fans on an international basis. Fair play.

To ascertain that the player who won more lineouts than any other player in a tournament, didn’t win enough lineouts is to say that every lock in that tournament also didn’t win enough. So basically, everyone is crap, but Gray is less crap than everyone else.

And also Sin, you don’t spoil the opposition throw on an attacking lineout, you spoil it on a defensive lineout, attacking lineouts are on your own throw. Pretty big oversight that you’ve missed in several posts.

*sigh* Let me explain it to you Mick.

1) Richie Gray is a front jumper.
2) Throwing to your front jumper is easier for the opposition to defend.
3) Throwing it to the back of a lineout means that you have more open spaces to get it to your backs for them to attack.

In summery - throwing to the front jumper is wasting attacking opportunities. You'd only throw to the front if you were in your own 22 and while you have the throw (attacking lineout), you will be more defensive minded because of where you are on the pitch.

gowales wrote:A Munster fanboy at his finest

We in Munster know and appreciate a good lock and can see through the fancy dans very quickly

Sin é wrote:

gowales wrote:A Munster fanboy at his finest

We in Munster know and appreciate a good lock and can see through the fancy dans very quickly

you must be the exception

This has been quite the excercise for sin é to indulge his narcissistic side. Thank you all for playing

I voted Wilco... cos he's a God! and I have a mancrush on him

So let me get this right...

Because the Scotland strategy was to use Gray at the front to secure 100% of the ball, while having Hamilton (another very good line out operator at the back) doing the mid to rear throws - again successfully - that makes the lock who...ready for this

Won the most throws,
Distrupted the opposition line out
Had the most carries
Scored a try (Which for Scotland is impressive)
Skinned Kerney
Beat the most playrs
Did not miss one line out
Won the most throws (Again thought I would emphasis that)

The fact that the strategy of Gray and the front with Hamilton at the back works BILLIANTLY seems to mean that you think Gray can not go to the back and do that job - he can - but the coaches feel that he is even better at the front

Now, if we reversed it, and tried Hamilton at the front and Gray at the back, we would lose something at the front, as Hamilton is not as athletic - but Gray would shine (He has played at the back of line out before you know)

So in summary - all stats. facts and truth are invalid because the Scotland line out strategy is effective and balanced with Gray at the front

Gray is a bit overrated at the moment, but he is an incrdibly talented lock. He is solid at the lineout and some of Scotland's lineout issues seem to be down to communication and timing, that's the fault of hooker, lifter and jumper. He can spoil some ball but it is an area he can improve in, the guy is only 22, plenty of time for him to improve.


He is blossoming into one of the NH and indeed one of the top locks in the world, don't unserstand signing for Sale but he has his own reasons and if he puts in another great season he will certainly be world class and could well be considered one of the wolrd's finest. He will and should start for the Lions. He needs another operatior with him I think though.

Thomond wrote:Gray is a bit overrated at the moment, but he is an incrdibly talented lock. He is solid at the lineout and some of Scotland's lineout issues seem to be down to communication and timing, that's the fault of hooker, lifter and jumper. He can spoil some ball but it is an area he can improve in, the guy is only 22, plenty of time for him to improve.


He is blossoming into one of the NH and indeed one of the top locks in the world, don't unserstand signing for Sale but he has his own reasons and if he puts in another great season he will certainly be world class and could well be considered one of the wolrd's finest. He will and should start for the Lions. He needs another operatior with him I think though.

totally agree.. i think it will be himself and POC

POC seems unable to stepping up to the top level. He is a club player is my mind. He fail miserably in 2005 and I dont think add the dimension to his game ever since.

POC is a top, top player, struggled with injury but he has proven he is up to the standard ,had a solid 09 Lions and when you hear guys like Matfield sing your praises you know you're doing well.

anotherworldofpain wrote:POC seems unable to stepping up to the top level. He is a club player is my mind. He fail miserably in 2005 and I dont think add the dimension to his game ever since.

Cant judge anyone off that tour. Only good thing to come out of it was an ad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYi3gXPZEms

Cannot believe that Warburton has the same percentage of votes as Jonny Wilkinson! Are we really struggling for fly halves that badly!? First choice 10s will be Sexton, Priestland, and one of Flood or Farrell. I'd prefer Flood, but depends if he starts for England.

Warburton would be a good choice for captain. He will be the first choice seven, almost guaranteed. The fact he hasn't toured before does count against him. POC is the obvious choice, followed by BOD. I'd be very surprised if Robshaw went, but think he would make an excellent captain for the dirt trackers.

Not sure about Best tbh, I think he faces stiff competition for the numer two shirt.

miaow wrote:Cannot believe that Warburton has the same percentage of votes as Jonny Wilkinson! Are we really struggling for fly halves that badly!? First choice 10s will be Sexton, Priestland, and one of Flood or Farrell. I'd prefer Flood, but depends if he plays or not.

Warburton would be a good choice for captain. He will be the first choice seven, almost guaranteed. The fact he hasn't toured before does count against him. POC is the obvious choice, followed by BOD. I'd be very surprised if Robshaw went, but think he would make an excellent captain for the dirt trackers.

Not sure about Best tbh, I think he faces stiff competition for the numer two shirt.

Why? Rennie was vastly superior in their respective tours, and I think Rennie is only getting started.

EDIT: It is the same story for O'Brien.

He seems to have a fan in Andy Irvine, and Gatland will be the coach.

Surely he will have to improve from his performances on tour if he wants to be selected though. If Rennie and O'Brien continue to play as they are playing (or continue improving which I think they will) he is going to have some battle on his hands. Not to mention the fact he is already under pressure as the welsh 7 never mind the Lions.

Yea not doubting any of that. Just saying that being the in favour one will help his chances a hell of a lot.

gowales wrote:He seems to have a fan in Andy Irvine, and Gatland will be the coach.

According to Irvine in the Scotland Herald.

"I'm the manager. I get involved very much in the major decisions but, on the rugby side of things, you have to delegate 100% of selection to the coaches, so I'm not going to have any influence," said Irvine.

"Obviously, I'm hoping Scotland have a much better representation than we've had in years gone past and, if you look at the young boys coming through, then I think we're in a good place. The only thing I would say is that the competition is very fierce. Wales are coming off a grand slam, Ireland are going very strongly, so I'm confident there's going to be a very strong Celtic representation on the Lions; I'm just hoping that some of the young Scots with potential really come through.

"Stuart Hogg must have a great chance; Richie Gray must have a fantastic chance; Ross Ford has probably had his best season for a long time; Mike Blair has come back on form with his best season for four or five years. Then you've got the likes of [Tim] Visser coming through, while Matt Scott's got great potential. I hope he really starts to shine on the forthcoming tour and features in the Six Nations. [Dave] Denton was a tremendous find and has been a real revelation this year and you've got Kelly Brown coming back to fitness.

"There's a hard core there that will get in if they do it in the Six Nations and it will be the Six Nations that counts because, although the autumn series is important, it's the Six Nations that is very much at the forefront of the selectors' minds.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

miaow wrote:Cannot believe that Warburton has the same percentage of votes as Jonny Wilkinson! Are we really struggling for fly halves that badly!? First choice 10s will be Sexton, Priestland, and one of Flood or Farrell. I'd prefer Flood, but depends if he plays or not.

Warburton would be a good choice for captain. He will be the first choice seven, almost guaranteed. The fact he hasn't toured before does count against him. POC is the obvious choice, followed by BOD. I'd be very surprised if Robshaw went, but think he would make an excellent captain for the dirt trackers.

Not sure about Best tbh, I think he faces stiff competition for the numer two shirt.

Why? Rennie was vastly superior in their respective tours, and I think Rennie is only getting started.

EDIT: It is the same story for O'Brien.

I think if O'Brien starts at 7, regardless of how well the rest of the team plays, the Lions will struggle. They're up against the best openside in the world next Summer, Pocock proved how good he is in the way he dominated the Second Test against Wales last month. O'Brien, whilst a great player, would have to, for me, benefit from several injuries to start at 7. Great player, but against the best teams, his fetching ability toe-to-toe with best poachers isn't up there.

Rennie, whilst evidently having a better Summer tour than Warburton, was hardly playing the kind of opposition (I include the first game against Australia, such was the nature of the game and side that the Wallabies put out) that would allow that to be a fair gauge of who is the better player. Warburton has played Pocock out of a game: in 2010, at the Millenium Stadium, he marked Pocock out of the game, and whilst he didn't contribute massively in terms of offensive turnovers, he's a much more experienced and better player now than he was then.

All three will go. I think O'Brien is hampered by his ability to play across the backline/lack of top class fetching. Rennie could play himself into the starting slot. I'd be surprised, he hasn't really...proven himself in the way Warburton did at the World Cup. And this is the point, aside from who I think deserves it more, it's far more likely for Warburton to start. Firstly, there is the Gatland connection, but more importantly Gatland likes what he likes and is loyal to players who conform to what he wants. Having captained Wales to the World Cup and played against Pocock on numerous occasions, if not as successfully this Summer as in the past, he's got the experience and nous to try and take out one of the three important threats Australia have (the other two being Genia and the running ability of O'Conner/Cooper/Ioane etc.). They will need to target and stop these if they are going to win, and I don't think putting Rennie in because he's in form, or O'Brien in because he's incredible with ball in hand, will help. We could be faced with another Lee Mears/Phil Vickery scenario, so out of depth in one area that it negates all the other good work in other areas.

Warburton was unfit this Summer, but he'd been beasted for over twelve months, from the Polish training camps, World Cup, kept together for the Six Nations, and then rushed back for the Summer tour. It showed, especially in the Second Test, and I feel with O'Brien in the team, and no specialist breakdown operator, a repeat of this scenario is likely, which would be suicide. I'd be delighted if Rennie performed against the Wallabies, he's a very exciting player for Scotland and one who will be around for many years to come, someone, along with Gray, they can build the pack around. I'm not arguing for Warburton's inclusion over him per se, and certainly not just because he's Welsh. But the likelihood is Warburton will start, because of the selection criteria for the Lions. Even when Tipuric was clearly in better shape and form, Warburton was included over him. It may be right or wrong, we've seen both positive and negative results of loyalty to an out of form player (Mike Phillips a good example). Gatland may be experimental with his 3/4s, but he is increasingly conservative as the numbers get lower on the back of the shirt.