Do Mum and Dad Really Know Best?

Donald Young is on quite the streak. No not a Nole-esq unbeaten run, but a streak of 17 straight defeats and counting. His last victory was back in February. Mark Petchey the great commentator said that the best advice he could give Young would be to drop down to challenger events and get a bit of form and rythym. Earlier in the year I had this guy down at 28-1 to finish as the highest ranked American player in the ATP rankings. That bet is well and truly void!! I do ask the question about the influence of parents on players career and ask if it is a healthy thing? Young parted ways with his coach in February and hired his parents and wow the results are there to be seen. So do parents really know what is best for their child's tennis?

The best examples of a yes would be Jimmy Connors. His mum coached him throughout most his career and he had a very successful career. Richard Williams the father of the Williams sisters and the coach and he too hasn't done a bad job. So it shows that parents influence and guidance can lead to success. Also however the attitude of the players themselves needs to be in tune with the parents and also the relationship must be cast aside slightly when comes to their tennis.

Bad examples. Bernard Tomic. Who could forget Miami when he branded his dad annoying and asked for him to be removed from the stadium. Yes Bernard has done well to climb the rankings, but they tend to clash off court. I also remember the story of when Lleyton Hewitt offered to hit with him and his dad was influential in Bernard declining in a less than gracious manner. Jelena Dokic's dad was also quite a bad influence on court and off it. Who could forget Salmongate at the US Open in 2000.

It's not all bad. Federer's dad is often a picture of peace and harmony. Never animated and clearly enjoys watching his son playing tennis. Djokovic's parents are always supportive and always there at matches. Murray's Mum Judy is very supportive at Andy's matches. Some parents know when their influence is not required or necessary.

So I ask the children if you were a tennis player would you let your parents be involved with your professional development?

The parents, would you involve yourself in your child's professional development and career?

Obviously it all depends who your parents are. Andre and Steffi's kids could probably learn a thing or two about the game from their parents, whereas as you mention some like Bernard Tomic and Jelena Dokic could do to cut the apron strings.

Murray obviously has benefitted over the years from having a tennis coach mother - even if she hasn't had much recent input into his game from a technical level, she was able to identify where to send him for the best quality coaching as a junior. Sometimes though I think she needs to take a back seat a bit when in the crowd - learn from Federer's father that a calming influence in the support camp can be a good thing.

As my only child is a little too young to pick up a tennis racket (or indeed too young to walk yet), I can't say what sort of parent I would be - I'd hope to be supportive without being pushy, but have a terrible feeling that my competetive streak might get in the way...

I think the fact that Andy has kept Judy at arm's length has helped. She didn't impose herself on him when he didn't have a coach and I think she understands that the level Andy has reached and the level above that is out of her expertise.

I haven't had any children yet, but I do feel the over bearing and protective streak in me would annoy any children I have.

I played for a football when I was younger that my Dad ran and we clashed a few times on the football pitch and training ground

Good example of a coach:

Oracene Price - I've rarely seen a match involving a Williams sister where she hasn't been there at courtside scowling. Until recently I didn't even know she was a tennis coach; I thought she was just there as a mother. Apparently she also told her daughters there was no such thing as pressure.

"Price's coaching has arguably been overshadowed by her role as mother, but as a coach she has been called underappreciated. Price is not a coach in a traditional sense (though she did learn tennis herself to help teach her daughters the technical aspects of the game) and is instead credited, along with Richard Williams, in keeping her daughters focused and disciplined and for helping to build a solid foundation of self-esteem and outside interests for her daughters."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracene_Price

I think Judy helped Andy (and Jamie) enormously when they were young until she knew they were to go on to bigger and better things and duly stepped aside. I reckon she still chips in with the very occasional tip or two. She must have done something right as she's Fed Cup captain for GB.

"Her ongoing role in Andy Murray's career has occasionally been questioned, including by Boris Becker who feared that her presence might hold Andy's development as an independent player back. Judy has roundly rejected this claim stating simply, "I'm strict, but I'm not that strict", and she is no longer part of Andy's coaching staff."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judy_Murray

Bad example of a coach:

Dokic's father springs to mind. Wasn't he a nutter? And Tomic's dad too maybe it's a Dad thing as they tend to be more pushy when it comes to sport? You've seen Sunday League football!!

P.S: I know a lot of Wikipedia isn't that true.

legendkillarV2 wrote:I think the fact that Andy has kept Judy at arm's length has helped. She didn't impose herself on him when he didn't have a coach and I think she understands that the level Andy has reached and the level above that is out of her expertise.

I haven't had any children yet, but I do feel the over bearing and protective streak in me would annoy any children I have.

I played for a football when I was younger that my Dad ran and we clashed a few times on the football pitch and training ground

Really interesting thread legend. I certainly think that parental support is all important, parental coaching depends on the relationship between parent and child and the willingness of both to really listen. The worst kind of parental support is those that vicariously live through their child and sometimes fail to recognise what is good for the person as a whole rather than just a sportsman.

I am a great fan of Judy Murray and I think she is a marvellous person to have coaching the Fed cup girls. Her love of tennis and support for her son shine through. I would just make one comment - I find her quite emotionally exhausting to watch during an Andy match and I do wonder if her highly visible distress and anxiety doesn't contribute to added pressure for him sometimes. Okay most of us only experience the same emotions on a school sports field, but we parents do have to learn to look calm and keep smiling even when you are racked with wanting it all to work out for your very own little sprog - it may sound trite to compare the two, but at the end of the day it is the same dynamic.

Judy was fantastic in Andy's first years and the decision to take him out of the LTA system was spot on. Sending him to Barcelona made all the difference. I think also it helped in Andy's maturity when you see so many players at that age struggle to really make impact on the circuit and end up sticking to challengers within their country. When Andy came back, the LTA for once did something positive and hired Gilbert as coach to the LTA and Andy was more than fortunate to take advantage of this.

Look at Oliver Golding and what his mum has done for him and upcoming youngsters by coaching them with the yellow balls and not the pink, green ball malarky within the LTA coaching system. When Golding isn't playing in challengers, he hits with the youngsters at his mum's court at home.

Some parents have positive influences on their childs tennis careers, others you think Noooooooooo

Very interesting post. I am torn by this because I think for financial or career success nothing molds you like intense hardship, hardwork, and discipline that can only be gotten from a near sociopathic parent and or brutal financial hardship. My own father grew up in brutal 1950s style third world poverty with a opium addicted father who stopped working when my dad was 9 years old. And from a young age as the oldest son he was the breadwinner for 7 kids and his parents. It has made him very successful, but it has also damaged him in that he is 72 years old and can't stop working 70 plus hour work weeks. His relationships with his friends and family have suffered, but at the same time he pull himself and his entire extended family out of poverty and made a big success out of himself. I can never replicate his level of hunger, work ethic or desire.


Similarly Agassi and Graf would not have been as good or great if they didn't have borderline sociopathic parents who showed them no mercy as children. The best steel is forged in fire, it may not be pleasant but that is the truth. So it is a double edged sword, I think those types of parents do actually generate a lot of prodigy type children, but they certainly do emotionally scar them. I guess it is a survival mechanism, so I don't know if it is good or bad, it just seems to be animal nature.

Socal

The follow on to your comment about prodigy children are the following 2 questions:
1 - For every prodigy, how many kids of driven parents don't make it to the top?
2 - Even for those who are great as youngsters and make a fast start to their pro careers, how many go on to have long periods of success and how many burn out at a young age?

Clearly in the second case there are successes like Graf, but there are also the Tracy Austin / Capriati types who burst on to the scene, burned brightly for a short period then faded out (at least JC managed to get herself sorted out and came back as a competetive player as a mature adult).

With the recent Olympics, we've been discussing the old Eastern European systems of athlete development, where potentially talented kids were 'hot housed' (including in that case being pumped full of copious amounts of drugs), and the stories of how many kids were just broken by the system (the particularly severe case would be gymnastics, where the vast majority of the selected kids were physically damaged by the training regime, but where this was considered not to matter as long as occasional champions emerged). The point I think I'm trying to make is that being TOO driven can be as detrimental as not being driven enough.

Oh, Tsvetana Pironkova seems to be relentlessly coached by "daddy". I think she'd definitely benefit from a real coach.

Donald must of accepted that his career had sailed away and just wants to have fun now. He could be able to get a top coach if his attitude was better, he's criticised the USTA on a few occasions through twitter. He's easily as talented as Goffin and Nishikori but they have more discipline and more confidence. Poor Donald.

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Donald must of accepted that his career had sailed away and just wants to have fun now. He could be able to get a top coach if his attitude was better, he's criticised the USTA on a few occasions through twitter. He's easily as talented as Goffin and Nishikori but they have more discipline and more confidence. Poor Donald.

I agree JM. Donald has the tools to become a top player. His attitude has become lazy of late and I hope the penny drops for him so he can turn this slump around.

socal1976 wrote:Very interesting post. I am torn by this because I think for financial or career success nothing molds you like intense hardship, hardwork, and discipline that can only be gotten from a near sociopathic parent and or brutal financial hardship. My own father grew up in brutal 1950s style third world poverty with a opium addicted father who stopped working when my dad was 9 years old. And from a young age as the oldest son he was the breadwinner for 7 kids and his parents. It has made him very successful, but it has also damaged him in that he is 72 years old and can't stop working 70 plus hour work weeks. His relationships with his friends and family have suffered, but at the same time he pull himself and his entire extended family out of poverty and made a big success out of himself. I can never replicate his level of hunger, work ethic or desire.


Similarly Agassi and Graf would not have been as good or great if they didn't have borderline sociopathic parents who showed them no mercy as children. The best steel is forged in fire, it may not be pleasant but that is the truth. So it is a double edged sword, I think those types of parents do actually generate a lot of prodigy type children, but they certainly do emotionally scar them. I guess it is a survival mechanism, so I don't know if it is good or bad, it just seems to be animal nature.

Your father has obviously true grit and a winning character socal - I am sure that whatever his situation, he probably would be one of life's leaders by the sounds of your description. I agree that hardship can be a great motivating factor for some, but for each person that draws on the inner strength to triumph, there are hundreds who are condemned by their circumstances to an impoverished existence.

You mention Steffi Graf and Agassi. Not sure if Graf had siblings and how they fared, but Agassi's autobiography related how his father's driving ambition for his children did not produce champions of the first order in his elder children, and his 'boderline sociopathy' had an emotionally crippling effect on his elder son. In fact, his narrow minded vision prevented his elder two children continuing conventional education and closed off many routes to them finding happiness and success in other walks of life. Agassi struggled with who he was/what he wanted to be, but ultimately was not left with the same sense of failure that his brother was - the latter because paths he might have trodden had been blocked from birth by a despotic parent.

I guess what we are saying is 'does the end justify the means?' but you have to consider when the 'end' is not success when you evalute if the 'means' is acceptable or wise.

I think John Lloyd said it best during Wimbledon regarding Agassi by saying that he takes more pride and success from the Andre Agassi Foundation than that of his tennis career. I think that said enough about the character and values of Agassi himself.

legendkillarV2 wrote:I think John Lloyd said it best during Wimbledon regarding Agassi by saying that he takes more pride and success from the Andre Agassi Foundation than that of his tennis career. I think that said enough about the character and values of Agassi himself.

Absolutely. Wonderful that the abusive cycle seems to have been broken in the Agassi/Graf household.

I think Graf like Agassi came from an autocratic background and I think looking to move forward and evolve from it does help enormously. I think Graf and Agassi certainly treasure their lives post tennis.

The belief that aggressive moulding makes for a better champion can be true in terms of emotionally not being complex. I also think through choice and commitment from the individual helps. Djokovic and Federer being such cases of 'choosing' tennis than much rather than having it forced upon them.

time please wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Very interesting post. I am torn by this because I think for financial or career success nothing molds you like intense hardship, hardwork, and discipline that can only be gotten from a near sociopathic parent and or brutal financial hardship. My own father grew up in brutal 1950s style third world poverty with a opium addicted father who stopped working when my dad was 9 years old. And from a young age as the oldest son he was the breadwinner for 7 kids and his parents. It has made him very successful, but it has also damaged him in that he is 72 years old and can't stop working 70 plus hour work weeks. His relationships with his friends and family have suffered, but at the same time he pull himself and his entire extended family out of poverty and made a big success out of himself. I can never replicate his level of hunger, work ethic or desire.


Similarly Agassi and Graf would not have been as good or great if they didn't have borderline sociopathic parents who showed them no mercy as children. The best steel is forged in fire, it may not be pleasant but that is the truth. So it is a double edged sword, I think those types of parents do actually generate a lot of prodigy type children, but they certainly do emotionally scar them. I guess it is a survival mechanism, so I don't know if it is good or bad, it just seems to be animal nature.

Your father has obviously true grit and a winning character socal - I am sure that whatever his situation, he probably would be one of life's leaders by the sounds of your description. I agree that hardship can be a great motivating factor for some, but for each person that draws on the inner strength to triumph, there are hundreds who are condemned by their circumstances to an impoverished existence.

You mention Steffi Graf and Agassi. Not sure if Graf had siblings and how they fared, but Agassi's autobiography related how his father's driving ambition for his children did not produce champions of the first order in his elder children, and his 'boderline sociopathy' had an emotionally crippling effect on his elder son. In fact, his narrow minded vision prevented his elder two children continuing conventional education and closed off many routes to them finding happiness and success in other walks of life. Agassi struggled with who he was/what he wanted to be, but ultimately was not left with the same sense of failure that his brother was - the latter because paths he might have trodden had been blocked from birth by a despotic parent.

I guess what we are saying is 'does the end justify the means?' but you have to consider when the 'end' is not success when you evalute if the 'means' is acceptable or wise.

Don't get me wrong I don't support sociopathic parents. But i do think that hardship can and often does breed greatness. I don't think that is the way I would want to raise my kids I wasn't raised that way. But I also know that people like my father who make it out of a cauldron of fire are usually great at what they do and create achievements that really benefit and change the world. I mean haven't we all been benefitting from Michael Jackson and Mozart's psychotic fathers?

Of course I am not for child abuse, but I do think that parents today are ruining generations of children in rich western countries by coddling them and making them feel good about mediocrity with expectation that someone will follow them around and wipe their nose for them. My own nieces and nephews are like that spoiled with an expectation of ease and receiving quality service from people. I am in many ways an old Hegelian dialectic and believe that while we might not want emulate sociopathic parents of geniuses, but parents might want to also look at forging a fire in the belly of their children as opposed to always making them comfortable and mediocre. There is a reason that when you sign up for special forces they beat the tar out of you and put you through hell, they want to make capable under pressure, making you comfortable would do nothing for you in a real world combat situation.

You make some really passionate and good points socal and I'm really going to do this post justice later when I've got time rather than replying with my first reaction and then wanting to change or expand on it hours later!!

Certainly one of your points really resonates with me.

time please wrote:You make some really passionate and good points socal and I'm really going to do this post justice later when I've got time rather than replying with my first reaction and then wanting to change or expand on it hours later!!

Certainly one of your points really resonates with me.

Ty TP, I will patiently await your response.

socal1976 wrote:

time please wrote:You make some really passionate and good points socal and I'm really going to do this post justice later when I've got time rather than replying with my first reaction and then wanting to change or expand on it hours later!!

Certainly one of your points really resonates with me.

Ty TP, I will patiently await your response.

Gone beyond tiredness now or maybe tis the wine so not likely to put this as well as I wanted to. Certainly I think that modern parenting ideals and taking pains to praise a child for effort rather than achievement has to be a very good thing, but I think what you are saying is that sometimes this is not tempered with preparing a child to face criticism or disapproval in their life outside their immediate circle? If I'm correct, then I do agree with you.

I think you can't teach the world to deal with your child, you must equip your child to deal with the world and to learn resilience and perseverance when things don't always go according to plan.

Haven't read all the comments but generally I think having a proper tennis expert is better than a parent. If you wanted to be a doctor or management consultant and suggested bringing your parent in to coach you, even though they had no experience of the subject, it would be an odd choice. Why should tennis be any different.

As a motivational only coach, maybe.

So I think a few cases might work but most won't.