India v. NZ--T2 Bangalore

First topic message reminder :

Pitch might assist seamers..whatever that means in the Indian context.
Dhoni is mad for not getting the spin and bounce that he has been openly asking for.
Showers are predicted.

So NZ stands a chance of winning...because the quality of their seamers is good.
At the very least they should not lose.


we want to see more competition than we did in T1

msp83 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

msp83 wrote:Felt sorry for Sunil Gavaskar on commentary. Simon Doull suggested without DRS, players tend to show their bat on LBW appeals more often than not if they feel they made contact and that it may not be a very good practice. Gavaskar then said that it could be just an interpretation, the batsman might be telling the non striker that there is no run in it!. The BCCI has gagged him well and truly to the extend of projecting himself as an absolute idiot!. Perhaps feeling sorry for Sunny, Doull left it at that!.

even without DRS the quality of umpiring has been good...in this series.

They got almost all decisions good...including one or two catches picked close to the ground...where technology has limits because the catch is between the rrames and images lack 3D perspective.

the umpires were switched on...knowing the ownership was on them and generally good.

a few odd erroneous decisions were balanced both ways........and we see few such controversial decisions even with DRS.

The series has proved the Nil impact of DRS in the scheme of things on the series otuccomes

I have always believed that this idea of bad calls evening out at the end of the day is a stupid thing. A Sachin Tendulkar let off is very different to a Chris Martin one!. Even in this match I can remember McCullum given not out when he was an absolute goner, and that New Zealand last wicket spirited partnership was ended through a poor call.

The poor calls have not been eliminated through DRS.......almost a similar number of poor calls are seen even when DRS is used...because of eitehr technology limitations in some case or by human inconsistencies in interpretation of technology in most cases.

So their( Gavsakar and Sahstri?s) Board took a stand based on some rationale...and those working for the board have to align with those positions.

anyway I would limit DRS discussions for now.....for everything that you and I are saying has been beaten to death umpteen times on man discussion boards

anticlimatic but familiar end of Tendulkar in this series.

NOW questions will be raised on his eye-sight , reflexes and aging defnitely

KP_fan wrote:anticlimatic but familiar end of Tendulkar in this series.

NOW questions will be raised on his eye-sight , reflexes and aging defnitely

There are shades of Bradman in 1948 about his performances at the moment - still capable of the odd moment of greatness, but lacking the consistency of old.

KP_fan wrote:
The poor calls have not been eliminated through DRS.......almost a similar number of poor calls are seen even when DRS is used...because of eitehr technology limitations in some case or by human inconsistencies in interpretation of technology in most cases.

So their( Gavsakar and Sahstri?s) Board took a stand based on some rationale...and those working for the board have to align with those positions.

anyway I would limit DRS discussions for now.....for everything that you and I are saying has been beaten to death umpteen times on man discussion boards

There hasn't been less poor calls. The only thing the people moan about now is the umpires call things, that is marginal and the DRS isn't supposed to be used for that. Now and then you get a call like the Kallis call in the second test I think, but that is sure to work itself out. The umpire probably just forgot about the rule and is probably embarrassed, so he wouldn't make the same mistake again. That decision was wrong on technicalities that even an umpire didn't know. So in my opinion, the calls is much better with the introduction of the DRS.

Does it make cricket better? I don't know. I feel for bowlers when they get a wicket and the umpire just want to check his footing and it gets overturned. In my opinion, everything is already stacked against the bowler. The batsmen always gets the benefit of the doubt when it isn't clear in his crease. Shouldn't the bowler get it when the umpire missed it first time round?

Pujara goes......4 down India...and now it is tense for India and even for NZ.

from here India is capable of collapsing and falling short.....well played NZ in this test.......never out of the game and with an upper hand many times

Raina goes...India choking now

Hope this series and shot puts a curtain on raina in tests...and brings in Rahane

Raina bowled for a duck, came down the pitch to Patel and missed, 166/5 and Kohli and Dhoni will need to get most of the remaining 95 runs

Gotta be the end of line for Gambhir, Tendulkar and Raina.

Tendulkar's eyes have gone.

Gambhir hasn't scored a Test hundred in nearly 3/4 years.

Raina is plain rubbish at Test level.

pitch is breaking and that one from Bracewell went throuhg the top it seems.

very, very delicate and on the knife edge this game

Game on Edge, Kohli and Dhoni has calmed things a bit for India, but all that NZ need at this moment is one wicket to get back into the match. After Ashwin, that tail is as brittle as you would get.

59 more runs with 5 wickets remaining. Mostly sensible stuff from Kohli and Dhoni so far, New Zealand still looking for that one wicket that could turn things back in their favor.

2 quick wickets now and we'll be in for an interesting finish.

Kohli finding a couple of boundaries and MS Dhoni finding enough singles to keep the pressure down.

this pitch would be impossible to bat on...on D5.
Every over now a ball is jumping up or nearly squatting.......
excellent partnership by India

That's the 50 for Virat Kohli on top of his first innings hundred!. Fine knock under pressure!!.

Kohli's 50........technique, strokes and temperament personified.

This guy has shades of tendulkar in his stroke play

partial redemption for Dhoni.....personal and as a captain...finishes with a SIX.

real Tiger at home Dhoni is.

India stretched and will feel good now that they got there........the've gotta fix the spot of Raina...replace with rahane....with no further delays.
Nobody can do much about Tendulkar.....he will have to make his own call.

Gambhir will find form.

NZ can hold their head high........excellent seam attack......underrated...but as good as any non SA side posseses.
and spinner jeetan passed his test with credibility..........NZ must bats positively like they did here...and they will win more in future

MS Dhoni finishes it off in style, Smashing Patel over the boundary for 6!!. He didn't quite reached his 50, but a very satisfying performance from the captain, got runs in all the 3 innings he played in the series, as is the case with Kohli!.

So India takes the series, but many concerns remain.
Gambhir averages 19.3, Tendulkar averages 21, Raina averages 19. Sehwag failed to score even 1 50.

Cheteshwar Pujara has been the highest scorer in the series followed by Virat Kohli and Mahendra Singh Dhoni. Ross Taylor the only NZ batsman to get pass 150 runs in the series.

Virat Kohli the man of the match and Ravichandran Ashwin the man of the series.

Raina doesn't have the temprament to play test cricket, it was a stupid shot to get out when the team was under pressure. The lottery somehow came off in the first innings, but I don't think he's good enough to play test cricket. Time for Rahane.

so Dhoni the stubborn one....just like he insisted with Rohit too long....is setting up ground to persist with Raina

MS Dhoni is a happy man, says is ready for England and Australia

Bangalore: India skipper Mahendra Singh Dhoni on Monday ticked all the positive boxes while asserting that he was quite happy with the overall performances of the team that is unlikely to see any kind of "reshuffling" for the forthcoming home Test series against England and Australia.

Speaking to media after leading India to a 2-0 series sweep against New Zealand here Monday, Dhoni said he was not unduly worried about the poor form of some of his batsmen, notably opener Gautam Gambhir and Sachin Tendulkar, while making a case for a longer run to the younger players rather than judging them on the basis of a couple of innings.

"No reshuffling. I think, it is just a matter of time before he gets going. I thought he batted quite well in the second innings," said Dhoni with reference to Gambhir who had scores of 22, 2 and 34 in three innings in the two Tests against the Kiwis.

With regard to Tendulkar, the captain said: "Everytime we talk about Tendulkar's form, he comes up with a big innings and I am waiting."

Dhoni was dismissive of criticism of Suresh Raina's injudicious shot that cost him his wicket in the second innings here and emphasized that younger players needed to be given a long run.

"Like I said, there are two ways of dealing with pressure. Either you go for your shots, like Raina did, or soak in the pressure, like Virat (Kohli) who batted brilliantly. It depends on the individuals, but I feel we need to back the youngsters, for that's the way to groom them," said Dhoni.

The Indian captain again made a strong case for playing home Tests on pitches that assist spin, but in the same breath, Dhoni praised spinners Ravichandran Ashwin and Pragyan Ojha for their effort on tracks that did not assist them, but favoured the batsmen.

"I would like to see us batting on turning tracks, but our spinners were brilliant (in the just-concluded series) on pitches that didn't help them, but I feel that the fast bowlers need to chip in.

"Ashwin and Ojha complemented each other and hunted well on pitches that were good to bat on. Ashwin has been bowling brilliantly and is learning variation while Ojha bowled well in the first innings here," said Dhoni.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

KP_fan wrote:anticlimatic but familiar end of Tendulkar in this series.

NOW questions will be raised on his eye-sight , reflexes and aging defnitely

There are shades of Bradman in 1948 about his performances at the moment - still capable of the odd moment of greatness, but lacking the consistency of old.

Tendulkar has always been massively overrated and he really needs to retire now. His Test Average this year is a pitiful 27.22 in 5 Test Matches.

I think Dhoni's comments on Tendulkar and Gambhir are fair enough. Tendulkar is Tendulkar, and Gambhir has contributed consistently to winning or saving test matches in the past. Of course both are going through a rather prolonged run of poor form and India need them back in charge sooner rather than later.
He said a few interesting things about Raina. But unlike Pujara or even Kohli for that matter, Raina has had more opportunities, but he's been repeating the same mistakes time and again. Dhoni talked about a similar situation against England in his early career he was dropped by Panesar trying to play a big shot when India was 5 down for next to nothing in a 4th inings chase. But 2 balls later Dhoni made the same mistake only to be caught. But unlike Raina, Dhoni did learn from his experience and played the situations, particularly in home test matches. Admitedly he has technical issues in swinging conditions and there he's better off playing his shots. But even in England last year, Dhoni was a far better bat than Raina was.
Somewhat like Yuvraj Singh, Suresh Raina is not cut out for test matches, though a fine limited overs player he is. The sooner the team management and selectors accept the fact and move on, the better it is for Indian cricket. Being a lefty shouldn't hand Raina an automatic test place!.
Rahane has to blame himself a bit though, never took his opportunity in the A team tour to the West Indies, and unlike Manoj Tiwary, he couldn't post a big score in the limited opportunities he got with the ODI squad.

If Yuvraj can prove his fitness and find good form in the T-20 WC, I would be tempted to give him one last opportunity to prove himself in test cricket. Not at all suggesting T-20 form would automatically result in test runs, but Yuvraj is a cricketer with that x factor about him, I still remember his first test hundred and even the 169 he scored against Pakistan. People were reminded about a certain West Indian lefty seeing some of the shots Yuvraj played. But he has had problems against seam and quality spin and never took the number of chances that came his way, but some times I feel there should be one last opportunity to see whether it would work. None of the youngsters have been banging the selector's door down anyways, although Rahane is a strong contenter.
Another youngster whom I would like to see given a test opportunity sooner rather than later is Karnataka's Manish Pandey

Duty281 wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

KP_fan wrote:anticlimatic but familiar end of Tendulkar in this series.

NOW questions will be raised on his eye-sight , reflexes and aging defnitely

There are shades of Bradman in 1948 about his performances at the moment - still capable of the odd moment of greatness, but lacking the consistency of old.

Tendulkar has always been massively overrated and he really needs to retire now. His Test Average this year is a pitiful 27.22 in 5 Test Matches.

good post

Tendulkar "ratedness" must be judged only on the average this year.....his first 22 years of show should be entirely discounted

msp83 wrote:I think Dhoni's comments on Tendulkar and Gambhir are fair enough.

Tendulkar is Tendulkar, and Gambhir has contributed consistently to winning or saving test matches in the past. Rahane has to blame himself a bit though, never took his opportunity in the A team tour to the West Indies, and unlike Manoj Tiwary, he couldn't post a big score in the limited opportunities he got with the ODI squad.

his comments on Gambhir and tendulakr don't botehr anyone...but only on raina's do ......smelling of stubborness and agenda.

Just because Rahane was exposed to tough bowling pitches in WI...and he did moderately......
and Raina was not even exposed to those pitches...
and we all know how Raina did in his last test match outings in England.......
and he did nothing thereafter in longer version of game...even his few Ranji games were moderate
doesn't justify the return of Raina....to test crickert.
he shouldn't be even in 15

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

KP_fan wrote:anticlimatic but familiar end of Tendulkar in this series.

NOW questions will be raised on his eye-sight , reflexes and aging defnitely

There are shades of Bradman in 1948 about his performances at the moment - still capable of the odd moment of greatness, but lacking the consistency of old.

Tendulkar has always been massively overrated and he really needs to retire now. His Test Average this year is a pitiful 27.22 in 5 Test Matches.

good post

Tendulkar "ratedness" must be judged only on the average this year.....his first 22 years of show should be entirely discounted

No I don't just rate Tendulkar on this year, I rate him throughout his career. And he's overrated. Massively. Doesn't average above 55 anywhere outside of the subcontinent. There are many better batsmen in this era - Ponting, Kallis, Lara.

What does Lara average away from home?

Duty281 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

KP_fan wrote:anticlimatic but familiar end of Tendulkar in this series.

NOW questions will be raised on his eye-sight , reflexes and aging defnitely

There are shades of Bradman in 1948 about his performances at the moment - still capable of the odd moment of greatness, but lacking the consistency of old.

Tendulkar has always been massively overrated and he really needs to retire now. His Test Average this year is a pitiful 27.22 in 5 Test Matches.

good post

Tendulkar "ratedness" must be judged only on the average this year.....his first 22 years of show should be entirely discounted

No I don't just rate Tendulkar on this year, I rate him throughout his career. And he's overrated. Massively. Doesn't average above 55 anywhere outside of the subcontinent. There are many better batsmen in this era - Ponting, Kallis, Lara.

He hasn't always been the best test batsmen - at various points in time Lara and Ponting have been better (let's not talk about Ponting's average in Asia ). But he's been in the top handful for 20 years - only Bradman has that kind of longevity. And he is the greatest ODI batsmen of all, just shading Viv Richards. He has been somewhat overated on occasion, and I think his views on DRS are harming the game, but in this case it is possible to be both great AND a little overrated.

Duty281 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

KP_fan wrote:anticlimatic but familiar end of Tendulkar in this series.

NOW questions will be raised on his eye-sight , reflexes and aging defnitely

There are shades of Bradman in 1948 about his performances at the moment - still capable of the odd moment of greatness, but lacking the consistency of old.

Tendulkar has always been massively overrated and he really needs to retire now. His Test Average this year is a pitiful 27.22 in 5 Test Matches.

good post

Tendulkar "ratedness" must be judged only on the average this year.....his first 22 years of show should be entirely discounted

No I don't just rate Tendulkar on this year, I rate him throughout his career. And he's overrated. Massively. Doesn't average above 55 anywhere outside of the subcontinent. There are many better batsmen in this era - Ponting, Kallis, Lara.

Ohh OK...you made it sound you were judging on this year's average....

yeah.....if averages only were a critera possibly... to me thouhg thats a one dimensional approach to measure a multidimensional phenomenon...

other dimensions that are to be considered IMO :

1) Remove runs against Zim and BD and see where their average stands.

2) what is the relative strength ( or ranking ) of the batsman's team in his era.
Batting in a No. 6 team and averaging 55 weighs about 5 runs more than the man who averages 55 batting in a No. 1 or 2 side

3) AGAINST whom did he get his runs.....how much he score and averaged against the top teams.

4) where did he get his runs ?.......weight down the runs at home and more weightage to overseas runs....i would not classify subcontinent as home for all Ind/Pak lankans.....nor would I classify NZ/Aus as home for the English.
there is a lot of adversity when travelling even to similar pitch type overseas locations.

5) and the most subjective but important and heighest weightage....explosive dominance, flair, box office appeal on count of which Richards, Lara, tendulkar, Hayden, Gilchrist, Sehwag, Pietersen rank very high....

it is much more difficult to average 50+ at a SR of 80%.....as opposed to a SR of 45%
Inspite of similar stats....Richards is higher than his contemporary for better part Boycott
and Pietersen than Trott

If we put all the parameter into the mix......Tendulkar would come out very high...because he was for the better part playing in a team ranked No. 5 to 7

If at all he is underrated.....although I don't believe in the best batsman in the world type tags

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

KP_fan wrote:anticlimatic but familiar end of Tendulkar in this series.

NOW questions will be raised on his eye-sight , reflexes and aging defnitely

There are shades of Bradman in 1948 about his performances at the moment - still capable of the odd moment of greatness, but lacking the consistency of old.

Tendulkar has always been massively overrated and he really needs to retire now. His Test Average this year is a pitiful 27.22 in 5 Test Matches.

good post

Tendulkar "ratedness" must be judged only on the average this year.....his first 22 years of show should be entirely discounted

A bit of irony there KP fan. How ironic.

Ihave to say its ridiculous to not have Tendulkar in as one of the greatest of his era ..its a longer era than any of the other contenders for a start. That hes gone on a few years longer than he maybe should doesnt change that.
Niow Id rate Kallis as a greater cricketer, due tio his all round contribution, but I dont but the argument that he doesnt deserve to be mentioned alongside Lara, Ponting and Kallis. hes certainly a bracket above KP ( whos an underacheiver) Hayden, sehwag and Gilchrist.
When it comes down to it he has records that are unlikley to be beaten, and has been good throughout his career...barring chunks of the last 2 years. But then Ponting was pretty awful for a while and hung around the Aussie team like a bad smell for a time too.
Its less than 3 years a go when he scored 9 centuries (2 double) from 27 innings....which included 2 centuries against SA in SA, hardly the easy home conditions when youre up against Steyn and co. He scored centuries in Aus during McGrath and Warnes hey day. The only away country hes really struggled against is..Zimbabwe. So to say he got his runs cheaply ..or that they "dont count" seems churlish.

He may be going on to long, but lets not rewrite history here and pretend hes never been great.

Who has? Of course he will go down as an all time great in the lists once retired.


There is a vast difference in saying someone was overrated, than not believing they should not be classed as a great. Some may see this as a contradiction but not me.

I am sure Duty {i hope} would have Tendulka in the list. He just feels that he was overrated.

Or Duty, are you trying to do a KP fan, not sure

Anyone who feels that there are many batsmen of his era better than Tendulkar is an idiot and should not be allowed to comment on the game of cricket. Disgraceful posting.

Well you did say there were "many better" of his era...that kind of suggests you dont put him in the top bracket.
By saying hes overated to be named alongside the three you mentioned, plus presumably others who make up the "many", suggested you believed is not only unworthy of all time great status but also of "great for his era" status. Unless you are dishing out "great" medals to pretty much everyone.
But wherever you are drawing the line on "great" it doesnt change that youd be hard pressed to find any one who agrees with your point that there have been many better batsmen than him in all time, let alone recent years.
If youre saying hes overated you are saying that people are wrong to talk about him as a something special, despite him spending 20 years as one of the top batsmen. A couple of dodgy years hanging on too long doesnt change that.
We could equally question how goo Lara was, with his monster innings almost exclusively coming on flat wickets ...all of his really big scores (250+) came in drawn games.

So yes I do see it as a contradiction, whilst at the same time accepting that there are some people out there who worship him as a living god that may have gone a bit OTT but the majority of serious cricket fans and pundits rate him as one of the top echelon of modern batsmen alongside the names you mentioned.
He is not overated in the same way someone like Flintoff has often been, largely judged on a handful of games at his peak.

i really dont see how Suresh Raina can be in the india test side!!!!!!!!

Rahane should be in the side somewhere, not at 6 however he can get into that side somewhere....#classtalent

KP_fan wrote:partial redemption for Dhoni.....personal and as a captain...finishes with a SIX.

real Tiger at home Dhoni is.

India stretched and will feel good now that they got there........the've gotta fix the spot of Raina...replace with rahane....with no further delays.
Nobody can do much about Tendulkar.....he will have to make his own call.

Gambhir will find form.

NZ can hold their head high........excellent seam attack......underrated...but as good as any non SA side posseses.
and spinner jeetan passed his test with credibility..........NZ must bats positively like they did here...and they will win more in future

well I am happy that they continue living to the expectations that the NZ attack had set during the India tour

Ah, an old thread has been bumped has it? Let's have a look here then:

Gerry SA wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:NZ bowling is decent...and their best bet is to make inroads with the new ball in thr first 10 to 15 overs....

thereafter until the 80th over it will be india's game...they would hope to kjnock off the 250 odd by then.

the pitch offers help to (1)new ball...to(2) reverse swing and to (3)quality /mystery spinners with variations....
NZ is able to exploit only category-1

A Bowling side like Pakistan would make India toil in blood and sweat to even chase 180 on this pitch.

And looking at India's next opponent Eng, whom I look at very closely because they value the most interesting form of game...test cricket......

I believe if Eng püts together Finn, Onions, Monty and Swann as their 4 bowlers....they will probably draw the series....

Thankfully ffrom Indian perspective ....Flower will mess up 2 to 3 tests with Bresnan, Broad and Patel diluting the bowling

And I believe that is we put together Anderson, Broad, Onions and Swann then we'll win the series.

Wishful thinking.

India will play Swann out of the attack. Off spinners get dismantled in India.

Secondly England can't play spin, so whatever England's fast bowlers do, their batsmen will undo their work.

Well that didn't turn out to be true!

Ah well, an interesting way to come back into the fold KPF.
Anyways welcome back.

msp83 wrote:Ah well, an interesting way to come back into the fold KPF.
Anyways welcome back.

On April Fools day no less.