2nd T20I: England v South Africa

First topic message reminder :

2nd T20I: England v South Africa at Old Trafford.

Match scheduled to begin at 18:30

This series will once again end up with one team either retaining or becoming the No1 ranked team. After being soundly beaten in the Tests and drawing the Odi's England will be hoping for victory against South Africa to give them a confidence boost before heading off to the World Cup later this month.

Other than a series winning confidence boost this is a big chance for a few players to stake their claim for a starting spot in the World Cup and also for one or two {Broads pace, Boparas batting} to try and regain some sort of form.

England need to bounce back to stay in the series after the shambles at Durham.



Squads

England; SCJ Broad {c}, JM Anderson, JM Bairstow, RS Bopara, TT Bresnan, DR Briggs, JC Buttler, JW Dernbach, ST Finn, AD Hales, C Kieswetter{w}, MJ Lumb, EJG Morgan, SR Patel, GP Swann, LJ Wright

South Africa; AB de Villiers{c,w}, HM Amla, F Behardien, J Botha, JP Duminy, F du Plessis, JH Kallis, RE Levi, JA Morkel, M Morkel, JL Ontong, WD Parnell, RJ Peterson, DW Steyn, LL Tsotsobe

Still an injury concern for Tim Bresnan though.


Good luck to both teams.

Morgan to the rescue? Or maybe the rain?

Wright gone, so the D/L will go up I imagine. Time for Morgan!

Wright gone. Eng 29/2.

Match. No result.

And I think the game will be abandoned, it's hammering down. Feel sorry for the spectators.

Well that was utter dross, wasn't it?

Our batting looks pathetically inept. A bunch of average sloggers that succeed at county level but simply cannot cut the mustard against world class bowlers. We looked all at sea.

We haven't even got a sniff of success at the World T20, and are a guaranteed victim of the group stages having lost all three games.

On the plus side, very good bowling from Swann and I was quite impressed with Dernbach. Our fielding left a fair bit to be desired again, despite some very good work from the likes of Bairstow.

Could not believe we dropped Amla AGAIN. What's that now, 8 or 9 times this tour? Pathetic.

Fists of Fury wrote:Well that was utter dross, wasn't it?

Our batting looks pathetically inept. A bunch of average sloggers that succeed at county level but simply cannot cut the mustard against world class bowlers. We looked all at sea.

We haven't even got a sniff of success at the World T20, and are a guaranteed victim of the group stages having lost all three games.

I don't have much faith in our batting at the moment either, but I think it's to soon to write them off after one 20 over game, and one five over slog. I do think that (and I'm probably in the minority in thinking this) that our third best t20 batsman isn't being considered at all: Owais Shah. He's a very experienced t20 batsmen and over the past year he's played all over the world and scored a lot of runs.

Completely agree, Chris, though unfortunately he has fell out with almost everyone at the ECB and thus has no chance of even being considered. I have it on good authority that they've washed their hands of Owais.

I'd pick him, for sure, and he can actually play spin.

I can't think that Owais would have got over his frenetic tendencies which have cost England in the past - nervous starts, run outs, often cramping up, poor in the field.

Yes, he is a good T20 player and whacked some runs around at the IPL. But the IPL is a very different competition to International T20 - save for 1 or 2 bowlers on each side the bowling tends to be pretty average stuff, and the players aren't under the kind of pressure they are when representing their country.

For me the youngsters we have are every bit as good as Owais and so we made completely the right decision to ditch him.

Those youngsters need to start performing though, Shelsey. It is getting to the point where they have played enough games to be making an impact. Think Virat Kohli...where is our Kohli? I don't think there is one. They are all promising but they lack genuine quality.

If we are to continue with the youngsters, as I believe we should, then it is essential that the likes of Pietersen are brought back to make up for their shortcomings.

Shelsey93 wrote:I can't think that Owais would have got over his frenetic tendencies which have cost England in the past - nervous starts, run outs, often cramping up, poor in the field.

Yes, he is a good T20 player and whacked some runs around at the IPL. But the IPL is a very different competition to International T20 - save for 1 or 2 bowlers on each side the bowling tends to be pretty average stuff, and the players aren't under the kind of pressure they are when representing their country.

For me the youngsters we have are every bit as good as Owais and so we made completely the right decision to ditch him.

Oh come on. Owais is an INFINITELY better player of spin than anyone in this side and that includes Morgan. Its not just the IPL. He has scored runs in the BBL and the South African T20 too. And Owais is a much better runner nowadays.

Owais was a key part of the ODI side that won an ODI series in SL in 2007 and was one of the few players to come out of the 2008 whitewash in India with his pride in tact. He has scored runs in the subcontinent at international level. I have seen absolutely nothing to suggest that the likes of Buttler are as good players of spin as him at the moment. They might have more talent but they are definitely not as good as Owais at the moment. Its important not to get carried away by watching a youngster play spin well in England. Playing spin in Asia is a different ball game altogether. Owais has experience of doing well over there. No brainer to pick him, tbh.

And fielding? As if bringing him would worsen our fielding? Can it get any worse? We have become an awful fielding side since Colly anyway.

"Promising youngsters" is fine. But it has come to a stage where they have to start delivering. There is too much inexperience in the side.

This is the same owais shah who has roughly the same ODI figures as Bopara right?

cherry picking his successes on the sub continent ignores that his avergae there in all games in no better than his career average...which itself is ...pretty average.

Lets bear in mind that the ODI series is part of building for the ICC trophy and next world cup. Winning is nice, but noone really cares about these series ... Englands real gain is building a side for the future. Owais isnt part of that.

I dont see him as a magic bullet ( just another " could do a job " player) , not is he going to add much to the future of England.

I agree that Buttler and his lot need to do a bit more to justify all the hype they got pre selection, but going back to Shah is no more the answer than selecting Collingwood or Dimi would be.

The last T20 is tonight isn't it?

Yes Biltong. Should be a 6.30 start, English time, if there is no rain!

Let's hope so, I set aside monday evening to watch the T20 and it was really disappointing.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:This is the same owais shah who has roughly the same ODI figures as Bopara right?

cherry picking his successes on the sub continent ignores that his avergae there in all games in no better than his career average...which itself is ...pretty average.

Lets bear in mind that the ODI series is part of building for the ICC trophy and next world cup. Winning is nice, but noone really cares about these series ... Englands real gain is building a side for the future. Owais isnt part of that.

I dont see him as a magic bullet ( just another " could do a job " player) , not is he going to add much to the future of England.

I agree that Buttler and his lot need to do a bit more to justify all the hype they got pre selection, but going back to Shah is no more the answer than selecting Collingwood or Dimi would be.

But the discussion isn't about whether Shah should be in the ODI team, it's about whether he should be in the t20 team. And after 156 t20 games he averages 34 at a strike rate of 130, which are pretty good figures (for comparison,Bairstow averages 19 at a s/r of 116, Kieswetter averages 28 at a s/r of 120 and Bopara averages 24 at a s/r of 115). And England should be concerned with trying to regain the t20 World Cup, not about building for the future, so Shah's age doesn't come into it.

The big thing which England need to do is rediscover the brand of 'fearless cricket' that they played in the Caribbean.

A combination of the successful new 50-over plan (which relies on a degree of caution), a couple of personnel changes and the passing of time appear to have stifled it, leading to us becoming a nervous looking T20 batting side.

The actual personnel needn't matter that much - for what its worth I believe Shah was given enough chances and never really nailed it when it mattered. He's continued to do OK (and at times very well) in domestic T20 in recent years but I don't think he offers anything to the side that the people we have don't; nor is it likely that his previous frailties (in the field, running between the wickets, fitness, frenetic starts) have gone away.

When we look at the top six and compare it to the top six of two years ago you'd say that Hales replacing Lumb doesn't weaken the team, and that the current in-form Bairstow is potentially better than Colly. The rest of the batting is of course the same, apart from Buttler replacing KP. KP is a key player but we must remember that had he not told everybody that the demands on his body meant he didn't want to play any more one-day cricket, he would most likely still be in the team.

However good KP is (and he's very good) he's not God. We've won games where he's failed, and we can definitely win games without him.

The crucial thing is that our bowling is still amongst the best in the world - only SA and Pakistan are anywhere near as strong. I think this will help us against teams like India and WI who rely on big totals: our bowlers have, in the past and recent past, dominated against both these teams.

chrisss wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:This is the same owais shah who has roughly the same ODI figures as Bopara right?

cherry picking his successes on the sub continent ignores that his avergae there in all games in no better than his career average...which itself is ...pretty average.

Lets bear in mind that the ODI series is part of building for the ICC trophy and next world cup. Winning is nice, but noone really cares about these series ... Englands real gain is building a side for the future. Owais isnt part of that.

I dont see him as a magic bullet ( just another " could do a job " player) , not is he going to add much to the future of England.

I agree that Buttler and his lot need to do a bit more to justify all the hype they got pre selection, but going back to Shah is no more the answer than selecting Collingwood or Dimi would be.

But the discussion isn't about whether Shah should be in the ODI team, it's about whether he should be in the t20 team. And after 156 t20 games he averages 34 at a strike rate of 130, which are pretty good figures (for comparison,Bairstow averages 19 at a s/r of 116, Kieswetter averages 28 at a s/r of 120 and Bopara averages 24 at a s/r of 115). And England should be concerned with trying to regain the t20 World Cup, not about building for the future, so Shah's age doesn't come into it.

Apologies yes, but the debate is pointless since the squad has already been announced..before Boparas slump in limited over form. He was picked off the back of a 59 at 134 and some good ODI form.
You cant really compare Bairstow and Keistwetter as they are in as keeper and keeper cover. And again with the selective stats, Shahs international 20 record is 25 at 122 and never bowled...Boparas batting average is lower (it but he has a bowling average of 14 at 6.5. Hes in the squad as a genuine all round option, Shah barely even bowls (less than 10 overs in 156 games) at domestic level.
England needed a batsman who can bowl fairly often. The choices were Bopara and Wright, they are taking them. Unfortunately one is massively off form with the bat.

Cricket does my head in sometimes, a tiny bit of water on the pitch and they wont play, it seems like they never think of the spectators. Yes players might slip over, but it is sport...

jimbohammers wrote:Cricket does my head in sometimes, a tiny bit of water on the pitch and they wont play, it seems like they never think of the spectators. Yes players might slip over, but it is sport...

I do wish people would get on with it.

Footballers and rugby players play sports where they are far more likely to slip over on wet surfaces. There is a limit, but we need to get on the field more.

Danny Briggs has been presented with a cap.

Forecast is great for this evening so we really should be able to get a game in.

8:12 start with 11 overs a side.

SA win the toss and bowl. Let's aim for 100!

Lumb plays with Bresnan and Briggs also getting a game.

Yep, squad rotation from both sides to gives everybody a game.

A shame that Hales misses out - he needs a knock himself - but it also wouldn't have been fair to leave Lumb out of all the lead in games when he's in the 15.

England team
C Kieswetter†, MJ Lumb, LJ Wright, EJG Morgan, JC Buttler, JM Bairstow, TT Bresnan, GP Swann, SCJ Broad*, DR Briggs, JW Dernbach

South Africa team
RE Levi, JH Kallis, HM Amla, AB de Villiers*†, F du Plessis, JL Ontong, JA Morkel, J Botha, RJ Peterson, WD Parnell, M Morkel

Some over from Morkel there 6 wides and 16 runs from it.

16 off the first over, love it!

Morkel.

Wides is going well so far as our top scorer....

Some spin though for Peterson should keep Swann/Briggs interested.

37/1 after 4 overs. Good start.

When Kies plays lovely shots like that off Botha you wonder why he lets so many dot balls be sent down at him...

Wright out. Caught by Amla skying Botha to backward point. He looked at his frenetic worst out there, unfortunately.

Only 4 boundaries in 6 overs, not easy out there.

Very tough against the spinners. Briggs and Swann will be licking their lips.

Ravi would have bowled well on this pitch...

Why was that not a wide.

4 big overs needed now, less than 8 per over.

90 is a minimum here. Tough pitch to bat on, but tough fielding conditions also.

Its pretty depressing to think that Boparas back up/replacement is Luke Wright and one of them is pretty much guaranteed to play.

Mor gone

3 sixes in a row for England!

Buttler! Boom!

Scoooooop! And a second free hit!

Scooooop! Twice off two free hits! 24 off the over! 2 balls still to go!

Get in there Buttler!

Six! Smoked him again!

Buttler showing what he can do! This is amazing, 29 off 8 balls!