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New Zealand South Africa match thread

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New Zealand South Africa match thread Empty Bok team to be slaughtered at Dunedin.

Post by Biltong Wed 12 Sep 2012, 7:13 am

The Springbok team that will face New Zealand in the fourth Test in The Castle Rugby Championship in Dunedin on Saturday shows two changes from the side that played Australia last weekend.

Both changes are in the forwards, where lock Flip van der Merwe replaces the suspended Eben Etzebeth while Francois Louw comes in for Marcell Coetzee at flank.

There are four more changes on the bench, where Coetzee joins Dean Greyling, Andries Bekker and Juan de Jongh amongst the replacements.
“The New Zealanders are good on the ground which is why we decided to go for a specialist openside flank in Francois,” said Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer.

“Marcell has been very good this season and has played a lot of rugby, but in this match we feel he will be more useful as an impact option.”
Jannie du Plessis has been named at tighthead prop despite struggling with a hamstring niggle. Meyer said the Springboks’ medical team is working very hard on the injured players and that Du Plessis will be given until Friday to fully shake off his injury, but if he fails to recover in time, Pat Cilliers will start in the No 3-shirt.

“We will not take any chances with injured players and we have time to get him and Pat (Cilliers) match ready,” said Meyer.
Greyling will be on the bench to provide prop cover, while Bekker takes over from Van der Merwe in the No 18 shirt. De Jongh comes in for Lwazi Mvovo on the bench.

The Springboks’ starting XV have a combined total of 482 Test caps – 136 in the forwards and 346 in the backline.

The Springbok team to face New Zealand in Dunedin is:

Position Name Province Test Caps
15 Zane Kirchner Vodacom Blue Bulls 18
14 Bryan Habana DHL Western Province 80
13 Jean de Villiers (captain) DHL Western Province 78
12 Frans Steyn The Sharks 52
11 Francois Hougaard Vodacom Blue Bulls 21
10 Morné Steyn Vodacom Blue Bulls 40
9 Ruan Pienaar Ulster, N-Ireland 57
8 Duane Vermeulen DHL Western Province 1
7 Willem Alberts The Sharks 14
6 Francois Louw Bath, England 11
5 Juandré Kruger Vodacom Blue Bulls 4
4 Flip van der Merwe Vodacom Blue Bulls 17
3 Jannie du Plessis The Sharks 36
2 Adriaan Strauss (vice-captain) Toyota FS Cheetahs 15
1 Tendai Mtawarira The Sharks 38
Replacements
16 Tiaan Liebenberg DHL Western Province 2
17 Dean Greyling Vodacom Blue Bulls 2
18 Andries Bekker DHL Western Province 26
19 Marcell Coetzee The Sharks 6
20 Johan Goosen Toyota FS Cheetahs 1
21 Juan de Jongh DHL Western Province 10
22 Pat Lambie The Sharks 14
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Post by blackcanelion Wed 12 Sep 2012, 7:47 am

NZ come into this match on a winning streak, that includes the world cup and the first 3 games of the the rugby championship. Under a new coach the Ab's are moving to a very high octane game. There are questions about how good they are, especially given the high error rate and a significant failure to convert chances to points. The big question is how will they respond under pressure.

The current side have a fierce record at home. The current side is currently 2nd on the all time list, behind the 2003-2008 AB's and the AB's have only lost at home 4 times in the last 10 years. History shows that to beat them at home you usually need a great side (e.g. 1998 boks, 2001 Wallabies or 2003 England) and/or a depleted all black side (e.g.2008 side vs boks or 2009 vs France). For that reason alone they have to be considered favorites.

South Africa come into this match under pressure. they have won 3 of their 6 games this year. Their loss to Australia is their 5th in a row. It is one of the worst losing sequences against an individual nation in a long illustrious history. The coach faces increasing hostility from home fans and journalists, while he deals with a growing list of unavailable players. A win in NZ would go a long way to silencing fans.

My take is victory for SA is possible but unlikely. This is not a full strength bok side and is struggling to find it's feet. They are playing away from home, with depleted resources, following a very hard game against Australia. I suspect it's a bridge to far. The boks are no longer the great touring side they were in the old days. in the professional era they struggle to win away from home. They have only notched up 3 victories against NZ (away), 3 against (Australia - all in Perth), 3 against Ireland (only 1 in the last 10 years), 4 against France (0 in the last 10 years). They have also struggled away against England and Scotland. This isn't a strong side and the stats suggest it's unlikely.

However Stats aren't everything. In this instance it's down to the teams, individual class and game plans. In essence I see it as a clash between traditional South African/NZ rugby. The boks will look to dominate the set piece and batter the AB's forwards. They'll probably kick for position and to put the opposition under pressure through a variety of tactical kicks and defence. Their midfield defence in particular will be ferocious. The AB's will look to run the Boks forwards off their feet and then look for gaps out wide. My worry is, as an AB's fan, that the traditional Bok game is hand made to counter the traditional Ab's game.


Last edited by blackcanelion on Thu 13 Sep 2012, 11:43 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Edited to make it fit in with merged post)

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Post by blackcanelion Wed 12 Sep 2012, 8:17 am

Looks interesting. I expect a lot of up and unders, scrums and line-outs. Am I right in thinking 5 kickers in the backline (all bar De Villiers and Habana).

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Post by Biltong Wed 12 Sep 2012, 8:19 am

Habana can kick as well.

No matter how you look at this it ain't going to be pretty from a South African point of view.
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Post by blackcanelion Wed 12 Sep 2012, 8:22 am

I'm guessing the game just wont be pretty. Could be a good thing for the boks.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Wed 12 Sep 2012, 8:26 am


Dean Greyling..Why? or should I say on what form?

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Post by Biltong Wed 12 Sep 2012, 8:39 am

Well there isn't really anyone else. Malherbe has been called up, but he is still inexperienced and not a brilliant scrummer in my opinion, Kitshoff is even more inexperienced, Greyling is at least a decent ball carrier, I just hope Meyer doesn;t plan to scrum him at tighthead, he is a poor enough loose head.

Our stocks are thin at prop.

There are about a dozen props playing in europe.
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Post by disneychilly Wed 12 Sep 2012, 9:31 am

Biltong what do you make of the implication that an indoor stadium will be an advantage for you guys? I'm of the opinion it will be the opposite as NZ will try run you off the park.

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Post by Biltong Wed 12 Sep 2012, 9:34 am

Disney, I am not even going to watch this slaughtering, I will not be able to contain my anger and will most likely break not only my son's toys but my whole entertainment system.

That should pretty much tell you what I think.
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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 12 Sep 2012, 9:36 am

Take out the weather factor in Dunedin with the closed roof and the advantage goes to NZ in terms of gameplan: the ABs want to run the ball and play the game at speed.

NZ's only injury concern is Carter. With Cruden having an off day last weekend, I expect him to come back stronger this weekend. The Boks on the other hand have a number of injuries and don't have a stable team. Meyer will close up shop thinking it's his best chance of winning so it won't be pretty but I expect NZ to get ascendancy in the last quarter as their offloading game makes you have to tackle much more and that takes a toll. That said, I expect a rush Bok defence and trying to wrap up ball and player round the chest.

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Post by Biltong Wed 12 Sep 2012, 9:39 am

Meyer is going into this game with only one goal.

damage limitation.

Expect the boks to play like argentina on this one.
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Post by Guest Wed 12 Sep 2012, 9:49 am

Yous would do well to defend like the Argies biltong and have Habana sniffing about for another one of those infuriating intercept tries thumbsdown

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Post by disneychilly Wed 12 Sep 2012, 10:12 am

At least you get to have the option of watching it Biltong! I'm in Germany at a wedding this weekend. Noone knows about rugby let alone gives a monkeys. Think I'll have to ask my old man to text me the halftime and fulltime scores as odds on getting a computer with good broadband speed in a poxy village an hour out of Frankfurt while everyone's getting ready for said wedding is pretty p!sspoor.

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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed 12 Sep 2012, 10:17 am

disneychilly wrote:At least you get to have the option of watching it Biltong! I'm in Germany at a wedding this weekend. Noone knows about rugby let alone gives a monkeys. Think I'll have to ask my old man to text me the halftime and fulltime scores as odds on getting a computer with good broadband speed in a poxy village an hour out of Frankfurt while everyone's getting ready for said wedding is pretty p!sspoor.

I know the feeling Disney, I'm off to the Algarve this weekend. Text message updates is all I'll manage Sad
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Post by Taylorman Wed 12 Sep 2012, 9:08 pm

Ireland showed with a fantastic defence alone the tables can be turned. SA could win this but it would probably do SA more harm than good long term. Like any addict they need to hit rock bottom before they submit completely to change and if they win this all will be forgiven. So like any test. They could win.

I can't see it but there's something about feeling vulnerable with every kick off against the green jersey of SA. They always seem to look bigger than they are. Looking forward to it and the selection of a real 7 is an interesting departure from the juggernaut approach.

Good luck to both sides.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Wed 12 Sep 2012, 9:24 pm

Biltong wrote:Well there isn't really anyone else. Malherbe has been called up, but he is still inexperienced and not a brilliant scrummer in my opinion, Kitshoff is even more inexperienced, Greyling is at least a decent ball carrier, I just hope Meyer doesn;t plan to scrum him at tighthead, he is a poor enough loose head.

Our stocks are thin at prop.

There are about a dozen props playing in europe.


I watched Greyling play his first test against Australia, and what impressed me was the way he got stuck into his work of shifting bodies at the breakdown, sadly whenever I've watched him this year he hasnt repeated that same level of performance, maybe he's like Woodcock, only performs at International level.

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Post by Biltong Thu 13 Sep 2012, 8:35 am

'Heyneke needs to be braver' - Gavin Rich

Clash of styles could set path of game

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

13 September 2012, 09:19


New Zealand's Rugby Championship clash against South Africa on Saturday could shape as a match that defines the way the international game is played in the future.

The table-topping All Blacks, who have always preferred to play a high tempo style, have taken that up another level this year, if not quite clicking in their execution.

Last year during the World Cup, mindful of past failures, they went back into their shell during the knockout stages of the global showpiece, adopting conservative, no mistake tactics to ensure they secured their second Webb Ellis trophy.

Under new coach Steve Hansen, however, the team has been attempting to move the game forward, with a mobile pack just as adept at hitting rucks and driving opposition backwards as they are at getting wide to support ball carriers as the point of attack is moved back and forth across the field at speed.

Atrocious weather conditions last week in Wellington, and a bruising Argentina hoping to make their mark on the competition, stymied that type of enterprise.

With a covered venue at Otago Stadium, however, many pundits and fans will see the match as the opportunity to stamp that new game plan on the world with authority, if the passes stick and mistakes are eliminated.

By contrast, the Springboks appear content to stick to a simple plan, with their massive pack bludgeoning their way down field before flyhalf Morne Steyn engages his first, second and third instinct to kick the ball, either for territory or high in the air to force mistakes from the opposition.

STRATEGIC KICKING

The game's rules, however, have moved on, giving the attacking side more incentive to hold on to the ball, which the All Blacks seem keen to exploit, though Steyn appears happy to stick what has worked for them in the past.

"We've won a Tri-Nations with the same game-plan and in 2007 we won the World Cup with these tactics. We have to stay with this strategy," Steyn told Fairfax Media earlier this week.

"It's not kicking the ball away; it's kicking for a purpose."

Coach Heyneke Meyer, who is also rebuilding the Springboks with the eye to the 2015 World Cup, has backed Steyn to guide his young team around the park, for the time being, and to play to their strengths.

As such, he has named a massive loose forward trio, bringing back Francois Louw to play as openside flanker, and Hansen said it was no surprise for Meyer to make those selection decisions.

They've clearly underlined what their strengths are - it's a kick-chase game, and a lot of driving and physicality up front," I can't imagine them wanting to change that, but you've got to expect the unexpected as well."

OK, what's wrong with this statement?


Firstly, what the bloody hell does 2007 have to do with 2012?

Are they seriously suggesting that the game has not moved on since then?

Meyer devolping a team with an eye on 2015 world cup.

Is he suggesting that we will STILL be playing this way in 2015?

Why then not play like we did in 1995, we also won a world cup then. Doh

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Post by Guest Thu 13 Sep 2012, 9:33 am

Wow, 'we have to stay with this strategy'. That one little word sounds ominous, hope it was a slip.

Hope Goosen gets a run and carves up (but not result in tries obviously). Like Tman alluded, there's something about playing SA that gives me the willies, no matter what.

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Post by disneychilly Thu 13 Sep 2012, 9:36 am

Biltong wrote:Why then not play like we did in 1995, we also won a world cup then. Doh


Suzie was denied entry by NZ Immigration at Auckland Airport.

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Post by anotherworldofpain Thu 13 Sep 2012, 10:19 am

I think there will be a lot of yellow cards for SA. Just my prediction.They will go out to intimidate and impose. But my worry for them is the game has moved on since that was a way to win, and also they don't really have the player to carry it out since the likes of Bakkies and Matfield and Smit and Burger and that guy who used to play at 10 who used to do all the head-high tackles have retired.

They got some success from the up and under game against the strangely questionable Australian high ball defense. But NZ are much better in this area at the moment and I really can't see it working. NZ are due to have a better game handling wise, I suspect they might abandon the big ball carriers joining the line on the short off-load. It didn't work three times in a row.

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Post by emack2 Thu 13 Sep 2012, 11:27 am

"My take is a win for NZ is possible but unlikely?!!!!" really i`d have thought the AllBlacks would be favourites to win at home.The Bok side is stronger in my opinion than last weeks at Lock and flank.In a closed stadium goal kicking should be easier which would favour a Boks kicking game.Changing a winning team is unwise,what have Ben Franks or Ben Smith done to be dropped?
Aron Smith benched for a disciplinary matter?IF you want to flex your muscles he does`nt play not just bench him .There is now no Lock or Prop cover of any experience THAT is a worry if injuries come early.THAT includes 10 to a newboy is no place for a fired up Bok side.Win this one Boks with two home games tails up and 4Ns is theres.An AB win without conceding a bonus point and no injuries is the ideal situation.A win probably,but the other two tenents I would be very surprised about.

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Post by disneychilly Thu 13 Sep 2012, 11:39 am

I'll take a win any way shape or how. This is the All Blacks and Springboks we're typing about. The biggest rivalry in the game. No mucking about here I'll just take the four points. What happened the last time they played us in Dunedin?

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Post by Biltong Thu 13 Sep 2012, 11:41 am

We're not going to win Alan, that is just wishful thinking.

We don't play collectively as a unit in the forwards, our kick and chase game isn't even executed well, our wings don't get to the kicks and our defensive lapses are increasing with every game we play.

The players don't play with any passion, it seems Meyer has stifled the enthusiasm and intensity out of them, whether it is his management style or simply just that he is training them too hard, I don't know.

But there is no hope for this weekend.
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Post by blackcanelion Thu 13 Sep 2012, 11:45 am

emack2 wrote:"My take is a win for NZ is possible but unlikely?!!!!" really i`d have thought the AllBlacks would be favourites to win at home.The Bok side is stronger in my opinion than last weeks at Lock and flank.In a closed stadium goal kicking should be easier which would favour a Boks kicking game.Changing a winning team is unwise,what have Ben Franks or Ben Smith done to be dropped?
Aron Smith benched for a disciplinary matter?IF you want to flex your muscles he does`nt play not just bench him .There is now no Lock or Prop cover of any experience THAT is a worry if injuries come early.THAT includes 10 to a newboy is no place for a fired up Bok side.Win this one Boks with two home games tails up and 4Ns is theres.An AB win without conceding a bonus point and no injuries is the ideal situation.A win probably,but the other two tenents I would be very surprised about.

Sorry Alan. It's typo and I've now corrected it. We should win, but with the boks there is always an element of doubt.

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Post by disneychilly Thu 13 Sep 2012, 11:52 am

Biltong mate we think there's always a big chance you guys will turn us over every time we play you. It doesn't matter what disarray you find yourselves in, you lot have hurt us enough in the past for us to really take you guys seriously as we always have done. Maybe that disarray will manifest itself in the game and we go hard enough to secure a big win but there's still a chance your guys have a blinder and that's what we have tp psyche ourselves up for.

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Post by Biltong Thu 13 Sep 2012, 11:55 am

blackcanelion and disney, if the Boks win this match with their limited game plan(they have 0% chance) then Rugby Union is in a sad state indeed.

Look at the team that played in NZ last year.


15 FB Morne Steyn
14 W Bjorn Basson
13 C Adrian Jacobs
12 C Juan de Jongh
11 W Lwazi Mvovo
10 FH Pat Lambie
9 SH Ruan Pienaar
1 P Dean Greyling
2 H John Smit (c)
3 P Werner Kruger
4 L Gerhard Mostert
5 L Alistair Hargreaves
6 F Deon Stegmann
7 F Jean Deysel
8 N8 Danie Rossouw

Replacements
16 P Chiliboy Ralepelle
17 P CJ van der Linde
18 L Ryan Kankowski
19 F Ashley Johnson
20 FB Charl McLeod
21 C Wynand Olivier
22 W Odwa Ndungane

In fact one second thought don't look at them, it was a p...poor team.

Anyway, what I wanted to say was that between SA and NZ a first choice team vs a second string team wins 99% of the time, in fact I would hazard a guess it would be 100% of the time.

The team playing Saturday is nowhere near the best team we can put out, they don't stand a snowball's chance in hell.


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Post by disneychilly Thu 13 Sep 2012, 12:04 pm

I know mate but it's still SA. We've grown up with the fact that any bloke in the Bok shirt is a hard motherfudger who happens to be a hell of a rugby player too. We hope you feel the same about our guys (save Philpott, Mannix, Ralph).

I don't agree with the Boks coaching and they are not evolving. You need to to stay ahead of the game and that's what NZ do better than anyone. Part of me wants to see us smash you because it would hopefully sound a death knell for that style of play and subsequent selections. Maybe Meyer has to go through a 2003 in order to facilitate this. But that's the friggin frustrating thing from here. It was only nine years ago so SA should've already learned those lessons!

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Post by Biltong Thu 13 Sep 2012, 12:21 pm

Disney the problem with our game is that it works enough times for coaches to keep on beleiving in it.

Consider the fact that Jake white and PDV has won 8 out of 20 tests against New Zealand who is the benchmark for all nations to aim at.

So because they still have the best record against New Zealand they will argue that if this game plan can be that successful against New Zealand it is good enough.

No other game plan irrespective of the unpredictability the all Blacks are supposedly so wary of from Australia has been that succesful against them.

Meyer is simply reasoning that if SA has won more against NZ than all the other nations combined, then they are on the right track.

What he doesn't get is that the gameplan is fine as a basis to work from for territroy, but when you get in striking distance you need to up yur game, and that is where variation in attack, using space and ball to beat the defender is necessary, and yet he doesn't get it, he would rather attack with forward pods and direct running that is as predictable as the fact that the sun will rise tomorrow morning.
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Post by disneychilly Thu 13 Sep 2012, 12:42 pm

It's pretty head in the sand thinking considering NZ plays different to other teams. Our versatility means we can mix it up and play it among the forwards if teams are weak physically, if not give them the runaround. SA have the players to do exactly the same. Change tactics for each team and attack their weaknesses. I know that pressure based style can work very well against us but when it doesn't then SA risks a heavy loss. Cory Jane is pretty much the antidote to that kick chase. Him and Dagg are brilliant in the air and we could even play a third FB/centre at 11 (see Kahui last year) to counter it. But we're only one team-the others will catch SA up if they persist as they will modify their game plans too.

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Post by anotherworldofpain Thu 13 Sep 2012, 1:58 pm

It hasn't worked against NZ for years, didn't work against Australia, didn't work against England...

I don't know how much more proof this guy needs.

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Post by Biltong Thu 13 Sep 2012, 2:14 pm

disneychilly wrote:It's pretty head in the sand thinking considering NZ plays different to other teams. Our versatility means we can mix it up and play it among the forwards if teams are weak physically, if not give them the runaround.

Prhaps that is the key, NZ has different methods for different teams, SA in particular against Australia needs to work out a plan that will be effective against them, as you say, if our plan is more successful against NZ than any other plan, then it doesn't necessarily mean it will work as well against other teams.

Australia play a game of "smarts" they use any method possible to gain an advantage, no disrespect intended, but if they can outsmart the referee at ruck time they will and have done it very successfully against us, the same with the scrums, we stand up against an Argentinian scrum and then get penalised a lot when scrumming against OZ, the same with our mauls, for some reason they don't work against OZ because they find a way to stop it.

We need to be smarter when consdering how to appraoch different teams.

I get the feeling when we play OZ it is similar to the big brother being taunted by his little brother and every time he retaliates, he gets caught and sent to the dogbox by his parents. The result is the more it happens the more the big brother is blinded by his frustations and gets outsmarted again.
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Post by Biltong Thu 13 Sep 2012, 2:17 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:It hasn't worked against NZ for years, didn't work against Australia, didn't work against England...

I don't know how much more proof this guy needs.

AWOP, I am a little confused by your statement.

What hasn't worked for years?
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Post by emack2 Thu 13 Sep 2012, 2:47 pm

To be pedantic Biltong,the Boks HAVE`NT won more matches than the rest altogether.Australia with 41 wins are the most succesfull and that does`nt include Waratahs wins .When they were effectively the OZ side,of course Oz have played a lot more games vthe ABs than any other 146 ,I think.

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Post by anotherworldofpain Thu 13 Sep 2012, 2:48 pm

Biltong wrote:
AWOP, I am a little confused by your statement.

What hasn't worked for years?

None of it Biltong. None of it.

Well, some of it, in patches, but never consistently, or for long enough.

And frankly the times when none of it was working were so disasterous that times that some of it were, were rendered largely useless, or at least ultimately fruitless.

Surely you must agree?

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Post by Biltong Thu 13 Sep 2012, 3:01 pm

Like I said above, it hasn't worked aainst OZ, it has been most succesful of any gameplan against NZ, it has given us an unbeaten run of 10 tests against England.

That's not to say I want us to continue with it though.
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Post by emack2 Fri 14 Sep 2012, 7:39 am

In truth Biltong the same general plan has been the Bok norm for before i was interested in RU ,1949 at least if not before.When you tried balanced Rugby it was`nt particularly successful.The AllBlack gameplan was for decades similar and highly successful,England to in the 1980-2003 period .Only the Wallabies in
the professional era had success with a fluid game versus the All Blacks.THAT was in the high point 1998-2002 under Eales and co.when they won 8 of there 14 wins versus ABs.They are the most successful side versus the ABs in the pro era with 14 out of the 33 losses the ABs have suffered in about 160 starts total since 1996[82.6% wins].The point is there is no such thing as the perfect gameplan,and often it isn`t the plan but the execution.In there last two games had the Boks kicked all there goal attempts they would have won both games.
Simplistic true and very frustrating for Bok fans,a small problem IF you go for a more adventurous style and the IRB change the laws again?At some point things like the Scrum,Breakdown/Ruck and Offside play WILL be sorted.Teams who have picked forwards for there primary roles instead of picking "Sea gulls"
will reap the benefits.A great scrum is pointless if the other side can take it down
and milk penalties which is a 50/50 bet with most refs today..

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Post by Biltong Fri 14 Sep 2012, 8:12 am

Alan, to be honest I don't really care what worked 50 years ago. In modern rugby players are bigger stronger, faster and more intelligent.

We have as yet not cultivated the intelligence factor into our attack, it will work, I see it every weekend when I watch Currie Cup, I see it from the Sharks, the Cheetahs and the Lions.

There is no doubt that we have the talented "intelligent" players that paid attention inclass when physics were explained to them, and they know the ball beats the man, and space (the final frontier) is less dense and easier to navigate.
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Post by Guest Fri 14 Sep 2012, 8:26 am

Biltong, do the boks have many backline moves from set plays? Not the ones where the player runs into another, but the fancy ones with angles and deception.

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Post by Biltong Fri 14 Sep 2012, 8:32 am

Have you seen any? Whistle
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Post by Guest Fri 14 Sep 2012, 8:36 am

Can't recall. Surely its the place to start, reasonably controlled starting point. Imagine the confidence it would build if a few came off. Backlines practice moves at training don't they?

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Post by Biltong Fri 14 Sep 2012, 8:44 am

I was watching an interview held last week in the bok camp, the only thing they were practicing was the contact area.

Look I am sure we have one or two, but our mostest favoritest move is the forward pod.
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Post by anotherworldofpain Fri 14 Sep 2012, 9:32 am

ebop wrote:Biltong, do the boks have many backline moves from set plays? Not the ones where the player runs into another, but the fancy ones with angles and deception.

Scrum. 8 to 10, ten kicks, 1-7 loiter. 14 and 11 chase. 12 and 13 run decoy/blocking lines. 15 drops back.

How much more "fancy" do you need to get?

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Post by Biltong Fri 14 Sep 2012, 9:46 am

anotherworldofpain wrote:
ebop wrote:Biltong, do the boks have many backline moves from set plays? Not the ones where the player runs into another, but the fancy ones with angles and deception.

Scrum. 8 to 10, ten kicks, 1-7 loiter. 14 and 11 chase. 12 and 13 run decoy/blocking lines. 15 drops back.

How much more "fancy" do you need to get?
It's only a move if it is executed, otherwise it is just general play. Whistle
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Post by anotherworldofpain Fri 14 Sep 2012, 10:11 am

All this so-called "offloading" and "passing" is not real rugby.

Forgot to mention : 9 involves himself with niggly war of words with opposition captain and referee and ponders the lost potential in his career.

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Post by Guest Fri 14 Sep 2012, 11:03 am

Uh oh, Steyn has executed the kick perfectly and it's heading straight for Savea!!! Will it stick or drop through the bread basket....

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Post by blackcanelion Fri 14 Sep 2012, 11:22 am

I have to say it's a bit of a bizarre buildup. The local print media has all but written off the boks. I can't remember this ever happening. Not even in the dark years of 2000-2003. Added to that there's a bit of common thread of Meyer being out of touch and the boks lacking ability. Call me a pessimist, but we can struggle when the opposition is written off.

On another note. be prepared for the ground to cut up. Apparently the grass is growing so well under the roof. I think Corey Jane said that it's a bit soft in the areas where the irrigation system is.

Lastly, here's a reminder that you can cut the opposition up and still screw it up. It's all about points on the board. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imZzV_PqhoA&feature=related

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Post by emack2 Fri 14 Sep 2012, 11:28 am

AWOP "offloading"and "passing" is very much REAL Rugby,draw the man,commit the tackle,and pass to support IN the tackle is THE basis of back play.
Biltong I am very much aware that todays players are bigger and maybe better conditioned.That is as you expect Western Province by tradition were a balanced team.Traansvaal,Northen Traansvaal were forward based.Also at provincial level am fully aware they can and do play all sorts of styles with varying levels of success.BUT the Bok/AllBlack players were much fitter and harder physically because most lived/worked outdoors.Also in skill levels from kiddies up were much higher in the amateur days ask David Campese .It was real muscle not gym muscle,you have always had players that could play any way you like.You still do, BUT in these days when trial matches don`t happen any more.Teams are built around there most successful club/provincial sides etc.
Stormers/Bulls are your most recent successful sides hence the BOKS would but for injuries etc.would be based on them.A Coach is picked to win matches a BOK/ALLBLACKS one has very little leeway lose constantly and it`s his head.
In 2009 there was a very real chance that the AB gang of three would fall.IF they had had the end of year tour the Boks had .Come 2010 there would have been new faces in the coaching squad.May I ask you this Biltong just suppose the Boks win there last 3 matches and this 4Ns with a depleted side .Would that make you happy or not because Meyers tactics were vindicated.OR go for a more looser style and maybe lose all 3 and then have a poor AI`s for the sake of change.Extemes I know and sadly because of your injuries this year we won`t see the best of the BOKS.Point is no matter how poor you perceive the current side to be they still have only lost one match and that narrowly.Certainly you have the players to change the game given the platform . Rigidly sticking to the same game plan isn`t helping,flexibility would I agree.BUT look at the upside for a minute this year you are developing players at Test level.Who would probably never get the chance normally that will serve you in good stead as age catchs up with the AllBlacks.Many of the current squad may not make 2015,there are many young hopefuls coming thru.BUT have yet to prove they are as good as the current incumbents.

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Post by Biltong Fri 14 Sep 2012, 11:33 am

Alan, I don't want our game to change, I want us to play territory the way we do it now, I don't mind if we kick and chase from our 22, I don't mind structure, we will be lost without it.

I have been saying for years now the only aspect I want to see change is our attack.

You are in a position to attack the opposition line maybe 8-15 minutes in a total game, that is where the opportunities need to be created by unpredictability. We need to let the ball do the work, we need to play into space.

If we win without those elements, we will be doomed for another four years.
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Post by anotherworldofpain Fri 14 Sep 2012, 11:35 am

emack2 wrote:AWOP "offloading"and "passing" is very much REAL Rugby,draw the man,commit the tackle,and pass to support IN the tackle is THE basis of back play.

Whistle Never. It's just unnecessary basketball-esque frill that has no place in a real man's sport. In fact, both practises should be immediately outlawed by the IRB in favour of at least three more steps in the scrum engagement, and the introduction of some further ruck offences so we can enjoy the spectacle of more shots at goal.

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Post by emack2 Fri 14 Sep 2012, 11:41 am

Sarcasm or Irony cute AWOP,I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that it was a serious comment.To give what currently passes for setting of a scrum,or the breakdown a "Ruck".Is a GROSS insult to both aspects of forward play that does`nt deserve the names concerned.

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