Englands Second Rows

Theres many a debate over positions...one i think is a biggy is the Second Row positions.
Now i think for the AI's its more than likely to be from Lawes, Palmer, Parling and Botha...

But come the 6ns and looking further...who do you see as the ones to take england forward...to be Englands new Johnson & Kay, or Matfield and Botha...

Personally i think it should come from Garvey, Attwood, Lawes, Kitchener and Launchbury

Lineout Guys:
Parling
Robson
Borthwick
Kitchener
Kennedy
Hudson

Power Second Rowers:
Garvey
Slater
Attwood
Savage
Deacon
Kohn
Botha
Matthews

Alrounders?:
Lawes
George Kruis
Launchbury
Itoje
Palmer

Have to admit, I really don't like the locks in the EPS. Botha I flat out don't rate- he's undersized, clumsy, and poor with ball in hand. He tries hard but that's it. Palmer's been a good servant and filled in nicely the last 2 years or so, but he's a shadow of his former self currently. Lawes has started the season well. Parling needs to do a little more with ball in hand, and completely sort his lineout out. Can't question his tackle count- his defence is very good.

Kitchener has started the season excellently. He's great in the lineout and is destructive with the ball in space. Attwood also has impressed me hugely when he's started for Bath the last two weeks. Good in defence, generating turnover ball, and running with ball in hand. Garvey as per usual, is constantly impressive, but who knows what happened with him in the Saxons game.

Launchbury is definitely one for the future.

I would at some point, love to see a second row pairing of Attwood and Lawes.

I'm not sure I'd class Lawes as an all-rounder. He's an unusual specimen - he's not the classical "big guy at 4", but he's very powerful (when on song) and not an out-and-out lineout merchant. He may work best with another unconventional lock - but one of them has to be able to run the lineout.

I think Matthews is definitely one to watch. Has some work to do on his play in the loose, but he come close to adding Kohn's solidity in the scrum and is also a good lineout option. He could - and should with the right input - develop into a very good all-rounder and he is clearly on Lancaster's radar.

Itoje. The guy is only 17. Seems to be a firm Lancaster favourite already.

You missed out George Kruis. Personally I think he's an all rounder.

I want him to eventually supplant Botha at Sarries.

Ah yeh, Kruis is a very good prospect. Haven't seen much of him at all, but wat I have has been impressive.

Isn't Itoje more of a 6? I might be wrong there...

Just in case people want to check they are not repeating themselves:

https://www.606v2.com/t35411-england-second-rows-for-ais

As Lancaster will not look much beyond the EPS squad, he is most likely to perm 2 from Botha, Lawes, Palmer & Parling

Itoje is like Lawes he is a lock but has played at 6. Lock is his main position I think.

Can't say I have seen much of him. Lancaster seems to be a big fan though with him mentioning his name a few times in the press.

LT that's pretty depressing if the case.

I rate Parling and i think he will improve his all round game and will become an england stalwart

Beschocked...

I just included Itoje as his name has been mentioned several times by the England Management team for the future...ill add Kruis.

Nothing wrong with mentioning Itoje.

He'll probably be world cup winning captain for England in 2015 according to Lancaster.

Bring back Simon Shaw

I think the 2 locks for England in the Ais. will be Lawes, and Palmer.

Depends how they go if they will be the starting pair for the 6ns.

One more possibility for the future might be James Craig at Saints. He's been injured since the beginning of the season, but he looked to really be stepping up last season.

As with most others, I expect Lawes, Palmer, Parling and Botha to be Lancaster's picks for the AI, and to be fair to him they are probably the best mix of effective and experienced at present to try and secure the 4th IRB ranking spot. However, aside from Lawes I think we need to be looking elsewhere next year for players that will be true international class for us in the coming years; Palmer is towards the end of his career and Botha & Parling are functional if uninspiring performers.

Do we need:
A bludgeoning 4...who is powerful in the rucks and mauls, makes big carries and can jump well at 2.
and
Alongside him need a more athletic guy at 5 who dominates the lineout, but still offers good graft in the tight exchanges and a few skills in the loose.

i.e Garvey/Attwood & Kitchener...

OR Do you want to see 2 more rounded players who can cover most of those roles...
Ie Lawes & Launchbury

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do we need:
A bludgeoning 4...who is powerful in the rucks and mauls, makes big carries and can jump well at 2.
and
Alongside him need a more athletic guy at 5 who dominates the lineout, but still offers good graft in the tight exchanges and a few skills in the loose.

i.e Garvey/Attwood & Kitchener...

OR Do you want to see 2 more rounded players who can cover most of those roles...
Ie Lawes & Launchbury

I think if we had a Bismarck or an Alberts or similar huge carrier elsewhere in the pack I'd really prefer the second option of a well rounded pair (oow-err!). But I don't think we do.

I'm with Geordie, really rate Garvey and can't imagine why he's not at least been given a chance. Would be a shame if we never found out if he was up to Test level.

If we want to compete physically with SA I think it's going to come down to picking a huge pack. People like B Vunipola and Garvey are big carriers that are hard to put down and VERY hard to drive back. If Lindsay could throw and add him to that. But outside of that I don't think we have many fearsome carriers. Attwood looked good the other day, so maybe his form will pick up.

COurtney Lawes is looking very impressive today. Winning everything in the lineout...strong at the breakdown and big defecne.
The real ommision from his game is the ball carrying though.

I think he has to start in the AI's...but he needs big guy alongside him to do that side...or we include Morgan, Fearns etc in the back row to accomodate.

I thought he made some decent carries today Geordie, he's definitely carrying that extra weight well.

Was Manoa running the Saints' lineout today (or one of the backrow)? If so, didn't realise he was capable in that regard (they most certainly trumped the Glasgow one lead by the Scottish captain), it's been Sorenson most of the season so far, but he was on the bench today.

He certainly made carries but nothing outstanding, and yes he's definately added some weight.

His lineout has often been suggested as a weakness...or a work in progress...well on todays evidence it was a strong part of his game.

Good to have him fit and firing....