Why Castres should apologise to the rest of Europe

I raised this point in the Ulster thread, but the behaviour of Castres in needlessly conceding an last try in Belfast may have an impact not only on the game and the pool, but quite possibly on ultimate knock-out qualifications.

This comment is entirely a criticism of Castres and none (good luck to them) on Ulster.

Modern players have the luxury of game clocks and are well aware when the 80 minutes are up.
Despite being 14 17 points down and no chance of and no hope of a losing bonus point, and having been beaten but a much superior Ulster, Castres played on instead of clearing the ball. Instead they chose to risk it and subsequently had over a TBP to the opposition.

To my mind this is an utterly unacceptable level of disrespect to the competition.
And totally unprofessional.

At 14 points down how were had they got "no hope of a losing BP"? Surely if they score a converted try they're in BP town?

They were 17pts down - with time up. So they had nothing to gain other than points difference. It was dumb play and gifted the 4th try to Ulster - when they had been working so hard to avoid getting it.

However the OP is a tad OTT.

Mickado wrote:At 14 points down how were had they got "no hope of a losing BP"? Surely if they score a converted try they're in BP town?

Probably because they were actually 17 points down. Mea culpa. I'll fix that.

It was 34-17 at the time.

Castres have won only three away games EVER in the HEC.

They just don't care for the competition.

greytiger wrote:

Mickado wrote:At 14 points down how were had they got "no hope of a losing BP"? Surely if they score a converted try they're in BP town?

Probably because they were actually 17 points down. Mea culpa. I'll fix that.

It was 34-17 at the time.

Oh ok. Still, it might have been a stupid idea in hindsight but i'm sure they had no intention of conceeding another try.

Phil,

Castres have won only three away games EVER in the HEC.

They just don't care for the competition.

Then they were daft to play on and risk a silly late injury for the T14.
Boot the ball off and get out of there.

LT,

However the OP is a tad OTT.

If the Tigers were to miss out as a second place HEC qualification on a bonus point, then I guess you might have different opinion in retrospect.

I don't know. You could make these arguments for lots of games and silly decisions. You could also equally ask why did Ulster take three points when they were 31-17 up and a bonus point was within their grasp. Were they not taking it seriously either?

Are we also forgetting that Castres in the point they lost the ball had just made a break and had a certain try but for the lack of a support runner?

Theres a lot of psychology at play here. a try would have seen the scoreline 34-24 a seemingly tight match.

But instead they look like they've received a whipping (they didn't in the second half).

It was a gamble for pride and reputation going into their other group games.

But sadly, now, Glasgow and Northampton will all see them as being there for the taking with a fair chance of a bonus point.

greytiger wrote:Phil,

Castres have won only three away games EVER in the HEC.

They just don't care for the competition.

Then they were daft to play on and risk a silly late injury for the T14.
Boot the ball off and get out of there.

Yes exactly. If they didn't care about the competition they would have booted the ball out and went for a pint. I still reckon they felt they had a message to send to the other teams in the group. A gamble, they lost.

LT,

However the OP is a tad OTT.

If the Tigers were to miss out as a second place HEC qualification on a bonus point, then I guess you might have different opinion in retrospect.

Ah come on, you think that ANY team playing considers how easy/hard they are making it for other teams in other pools? Thats ridiculous. You wouldnt expect them to care. You would however expect them to play for pride.

I doubt they were thinking at all. More a case of "Ug, have ball. Ug, run ball"

The only people who should apologise to runners-up who fail to make it to the 1/4 finals are the organisers of the competition. 6 pools always has been, and always will be a dumb idea.

I would suggest the other teams in europe focus on their own form as opposed to what another side, in another group did. LT is right it is a completely melodramatic thread. Should Ben youngs be held accountable if Leicester don't get through for his tap and go?

There will be a million incidents to analyse between now and January without getting upset about other teams. If ROG landed that drop goal against us a month ago we might have lost four games but instead we are undefeated. Doesn't mean everything that has followed is ROGs fault

I do agree with greytiger to a certain extent. Castres should apologise to the rest of Europe for not taking European competitions seriously in general.

Seriously what's the point of having a team who has no intention of trying to win the competition? I have been critical of certain sides but at least they put a lot of effort in the HC to win games.

If you took it on a game to game basis though all the sides who conceded bonus points should apologise!

greytiger wrote:I raised this point in the Ulster thread, but the behaviour of Castres in needlessly conceding an last try in Belfast may have an impact not only on the game and the pool, but quite possibly on ultimate knock-out qualifications.

This comment is entirely a criticism of Castres and none (good luck to them) on Ulster.

Modern players have the luxury of game clocks and are well aware when the 80 minutes are up.
Despite being 14 17 points down and no chance of and no hope of a losing bonus point, and having been beaten but a much superior Ulster, Castres played on instead of clearing the ball. Instead they chose to risk it and subsequently had over a TBP to the opposition.

To my mind this is an utterly unacceptable level of disrespect to the competition.
And totally unprofessional.

This OP is ridiculous absolutely ridiculous.

You are saying that a team should not attack because the result of their attack going wrong, will effect other teams in their group's chances of qualification...?

Put it this way.

It is not inconceivable that Castres could pick up three TBP wins at home and snatch a win at Northampton or Glasgow.

And fail to qualify by a point.

In a sense that would be an ideal scenario as their brainless unprofessionalism would be laid at their own feet and having to explain their actions to their fans.

Just to reiterate. The turnover came after a Castres break. If they had a support runner, their gamble might have got them a scoreline of 34-24 which is respectable and makes Glasgow and Northampton wary of them.

I can understand that. The gamble didn't work, and now they look to be the whipping boys of the group who Glasgow and Northampton will be feeling ready to tear apart.

All the top14 teams should apologise for the amount of play acting and theatrics that go on in their games! Any one would think that there were snipers in the stands the way some of their players drop at the slightest nudge.

clivemcl wrote:Just to reiterate. The turnover came after a Castres break. If they had a support runner, their gamble might have got them a scoreline of 34-24 which is respectable and makes Glasgow and Northampton wary of them.

I can understand that. The gamble didn't work, and now they look to be the whipping boys of the group who Glasgow and Northampton will be feeling ready to tear apart.

Has to be said clive that Castres might equally be relishing their visit to Glasgow as the potential whipping-boys on the balance of last weekend's results.

However the fact remains that Castres instead of shooting themselves in the foot, missed and the bullet straight went up their own arse.

Castres have noone to apolgise too, then conceded a silly BP, but that is down to them, and they won't feel they have let anyother side done but themselves.

The Big thing is French teams performances in Europe, it seams that they all want to be in H-cup but once there, the proity is to qualify for it again the next year, rather than progress in it.

If you remove Toulouse they have had 1 winner but 7 finalists, don't what that proves as 7 finalists without Toulouse is a good return.

There are question marks over Racing Métro, Montpellier, Biarritz and Castres taking it seroius.

We may seen that they put out weaker teams, to concentrate on Top 14, they may say Top 14 is tough and they have to rotate?

I believe that for French clubs finishing 4-6 in Top 14 recieve the bonus for getting into Europe and are not so intrested in progressing but making sure they get the bonus the following year. Personally I think that the Payments to the Unions, should just be awarded to unions for taking part in the groups, but weighted toward where you finish in the group, this may prove to be motivation to finish 2 rather than 3rd or 3rd rather than 4th.

I think Racing Metro do take the HC seriously.

Biarritz certainly do. At home anyway. Hard to gauge how serious they are away from home because they are so poor travelling.

Castres certainly don't. Not sure about Montpellier.

Montpellier and Racing do take it seriously, but they just struggle for form. They'd still beat most at home though and can hope for lbp's away, which is the same as a fair few Eng, Irish and Welsh sides.

Did Montpelier win a game last year? Just checked. 1 game beating bath narrowly. Early doors in terms of judging them

Imagine a professional set of players wanting to salvage some pride from a dismal performance! Whatever next?

Does anyone in here actually read any French papers or even watch the Top 14. Castres have a dismal away record in European. Of course they haven't won a single away match yet this season. Not one. So maybe they don't take the Top 14 very seriously. Or maybe, just maybe, they really aren't very good.

You would also know that Michel Dhomps was absolutely delighted with their draw and thought they had an excellent chance of making it through the group this season.

Would brainless unprofessionalism also be extended to a scrum half taking a quick tap in front of the posts which shifted the whole momentum of a match his team were in and caused them to be absolutely tanked for the rest of the match? Or let's just blame someone else for your shortcomings. Good idea.

11/12
Castres 1 win last year
Racing Métro 1 win last year
Montpellier 1 win 2 draws

10/11
Castres 2 wins
Racing Métro 2 wins

So the consequence of Castres' non-professionalism in R1 (80+ mins) has come home to roost at Franklins Gardens. You have to feel sympathetic towards Saints' players, coaches and fans for not having a chance of qualification in R6 in a really tight pool.

Can Saints not go through as one of the highest losers now ? Apologies for asking a stupid question but I have not looked at the tables yet and am looking forward to the game on Saturday here.

Nineteen points is extremely unlikely to secure a 2nd best place spot 21stCSM.

Castres' brainfart ruined a most compelling individual final pool round day.

Yes none to keen on them (Castres) after seeing them v Warriors in the group. I will say they were professional at Scotstoun when they kicked their way to a narrow victory against an undercooked GW ! Return in Castres was a disgrace -dirty bunch of feckers

The irony is that Castres could have had a chance of qualifying. As I said a mouthwatering mixture of possibilities.

I think you should blame your urine poor performance away to Castres (or Toulouse for that matter) more than anything else.

Take it you are a Saints supporter Grey - or is it Leicester

I don't like Castres, but they were naive rather than worthy of being villified in that game.

I couldn't believe they played on but they played on. They scored two great tries in that game and gave a very good account of themselves. They wanted a third. They had a point to prove- it was a competitive game, a really good battle and they lost their heads in the heat of that battle. A third try wouldn't have meant anything to them, but unlike other sides who more actively target the knock-out stages they didn't clock a fourth try could be massive for us.

Castres are a good enough team to make the knockouts some year but they seem to have this attitude that if it happens, it happens. If not... meh. Its bad for the tournament but in the balance of things if you're a Leicester fan and you're complaining about them, remember. If your team takes its destiny in their own hands, it doesn't matter. Win your group and your through whatever happens elsewhere. If you don't win your group, you don't get to complain- just thank your lucky stars you're still in it.

Second place teams have little right to take their pace for granted and I say that as an Ulster fan- best runners up in two consecutive seasons before this one.

...And the only group runner up to not even get to the Amlin the year before that. We Ulster fans have seen both sides of that coin alright.

MrsP wrote:...And the only group runner up to not even get to the Amlin the year before that. We Ulster fans have seen both sides of that coin alright.

Tigers once finished with more points than a team that qualified for the quarters, but because they were 3rd in their group didnt even make the Amlin.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

MrsP wrote:...And the only group runner up to not even get to the Amlin the year before that. We Ulster fans have seen both sides of that coin alright.

Tigers once finished with more points than a team that qualified for the quarters, but because they were 3rd in their group didnt even make the Amlin.

But they finished 3rd in their group so...

Agree that the runner up should really get to go through. However I seen one post that blamed Castres for Northampton not going through. Well no it's not Castres fault at all are Northampton 1 point behind Ulster no they are 5. To blame another team for your failure is delusional and bitter.

There are a million decisions that have passed between then and where we find ourselves now. As for having nothing to play for? Well we are seeing now that trys scored could well come in to play in determining not only who gets the Home QF but also who qualifies as best runners up.

Therefore playing for said try was necessary.

The only thing that needs apologised for is this thread.

The only thing thar Castres had to play for was a try. What they earned was nothing and ultimately gave the pool to Ulster.

It was a pointless (in whichever way you read it) exercise.
At the end of the day it was a ruinous decision.
i.e. Unprofessional and ultimately disastrous for pool 4 round 6 - what a great day we've missed out on.

So Castres owes the European rugby fraternity an apology rather than

The only thing that needs apologised for is this thread.

And onto ignore you go. Waste of my time reading your posts.

Standulstermen wrote:And onto ignore you go. Waste of my time reading your posts.

As I penned the article on the coat-tails of R1 and the worst case scenario has emerged, I find no reason to read your guff seriously SU.

This is a criticism aimed fairly, squarely and directly at Castres.
But it appears that you want to read my words as a tirade on Ulster.

Read them again my friend.

P, perhaps the Castres players were simply not thinking of the possible permutations for round 6 when they chose to continue the game rather than draw it to a close? It wouldn't be the first set of rugby players to miss the implications of a decision? Blair's restart against Wales a couple of years back which handed them their tremendous comeback comes to mind, for example. Also Robshaw took plenty of flak for seemingly "duff" decisions in two of the AIs, didn't he? It happens - end of story, no conspiracy me thinks and surely nothing to apologise for?

Greytiger, I assume if your team are in a similar situation to Castre in the future you would want them to just give up, kick the ball out and say 'f*ck it, sorry fans, we can't be a*sed anymore. We've had enough. An early shower for us'? Is that professional???

greytiger wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:And onto ignore you go. Waste of my time reading your posts.

As I penned the article on the coat-tails of R1 and the worst case scenario has emerged, I find no reason to read your guff seriously SU.

This is a criticism aimed fairly, squarely and directly at Castres.
But it appears that you want to read my words as a tirade on Ulster.

Read them again my friend.

No, wrong. Lack of self-awareness.

I appreciate you are not taking aim at Ulster- that doesn't mean your article isn't stupid. What gave control of the pool to Ulster was Northampton Saints conceding a try bonus point win to us at Franklins Gardens.

We monumentally slipped up the next week- we had a dire underperformance whilst Saints played their hearts out and we still won the pool by Round 5.

Whats more Castres really played hard at Ravenhill, but the game was won by 60 minutes. If they hadn't been arsed, we'd have had the bonus point wrapped up but they came back at us- hard.

If they hadn't cared the 5 points would have been wrapped up sooner than the last play. It's only their commitment in that game that actually stopped this happening and nearly denied us the BP in the first place.

Is this post serious?

I think Tommy Bowe should apologise for going and getting his knee wrecked right on the very piece of Ravenhill turf from which Ruan Peinaar was supposed to take a penalty which would have won us the game against the Saints.

Or maybe it should be the saint who tackled him?

Or maybe Biggar who missed so many kicks today.

Or the man who made the posts at the Liberty too thick.

Or maybe it was that bloke who distracted the fella who was ordering the posts who's actually to blame.

Griff wrote:Greytiger, I assume if your team are in a similar situation to Castre in the future you would want them to just give up, kick the ball out and say 'f*ck it, sorry fans, we can't be a*sed anymore. We've had enough. An early shower for us'? Is that professional???

If my team was 17 points behind, no chance of a tbp and the clock on red, and the opposition with the chance of a tbp, you know, I just might be a tad short of Gruntled City limits. Especially as this was R1 of a major tournament.

MrsP wrote:I think Tommy Bowe should apologise for going and getting his knee wrecked right on the very piece of Ravenhill turf from which Ruan Peinaar was supposed to take a penalty which would have won us the game against the Saints.

Or maybe it should be the saint who tackled him?

Or maybe Biggar who missed so many kicks today.

Or the man who made the posts at the Liberty too thick.

Or maybe it was that bloke who distracted the fella who was ordering the posts who's actually to blame.

All in the 80 mins MrsP. Not after the clock was red.

greytiger wrote:

Griff wrote:Greytiger, I assume if your team are in a similar situation to Castre in the future you would want them to just give up, kick the ball out and say 'f*ck it, sorry fans, we can't be a*sed anymore. We've had enough. An early shower for us'? Is that professional???

If my team was 17 points behind, no chance of a tbp and the clock on red, and the opposition with the chance of a tbp, you know, I just might be a tad short of Gruntled City limits. Especially as this was R1 of a major tournament.

Now on that we can agree. But that would be because I felt they were harming our chances in the competition rather than because I felt they owed some obligation to fans of other teams who had hoped for a really exciting time in front of the telly on the 19th of January.

If such a circumstance like this turns up next week the board will be afire.

Especially so if it were in group 6.

Professional teams have duties and responsibilities not only to their own sides, but their professional colleagues and professional sport.

Don't ask Lance Armstrong for moral guidance on this point.

So, Castres continuing to play for their own pride in the shirt is akin to taking performance enhancing drugs?

They have no obligation to other teams than to play fairly. They did that.