Ulster now boasts a squad depth that can challenge Leinster in the league and Heineken Cup

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19983087

Ulster now boasts a squad depth that can challenge Leinster in the league and Heineken Cup, says Tom Court.

I've been saying for years Ulster are really building back up to being a top team again, since 2006.

Anyways, I think its fair to say we are currently in the chasing pack (with a number of teams) behind Leinster to be best in Europe.

Think its fair to say we're up to second best team in Ireland, (but its close, and changable currently).

However I still don't think that we're at the point to challenge Leinster in the league and Heineken Cup yet.

Leinster are not in top form currently, but when they are I think they are a class above, and with their squad they have managed to keep winning (this year and last) durning what would be injury crisises for other teams.

How far are Ulster from this level?

Under Mark Anscombe we appear to be playing better than last year, all players have upped thier game a level, even the ones not thought to be much more than squad players are playing the best rugby they have ever played, Squad is better as well. But what do we need to do to reach Leinsters Level, or are we there?

Personally I think very few teams can or ever do reach the level Leinster were playing at for last 2 years, and even those teams cannot keep it up, I think that Leinster will find it very hard to reach that level again, they will still be a top team, but instead of being ahead of the chasing pack they will drop down and be among the chasng pack of top teams in Europe. We have a very poor record against Leinster, but I think I can see it being more even this year.
So I don't think we're at a point yet to challenge Leinster in the league and Heineken Cup, I do see that we are getting much closer to them, and maybe even capable of beating them in a big game, I believe that Leinsters performances will drop a level this year (from being the standout team in Europe, to one of the standout teams in Europe), so possibly we are able to challange them this year, but we are not at a point where we could consistantly challange them.

Back to the orginal quote "Ulster now boasts a squad depth that can challenge Leinster in the league and Heineken Cup." Do you agree?

We're getting there. The difference is players now believe in themselves, squad players are playing out of their skin because they believe they can make the breakthrough.

Right now, we lack depth in the front row due to injuries and at 10. Every other position we have depth.

I do agree. We are getting there.

I remember seeing our bench for the Ospreys game,

Replacements: N Brady, T Court, J Afoa, N McComb, S Ferris, P Marshall, P Jackson, A Trimble


and my wee heart swellled with pride and wonder.

When have Ulster ever been able to put out that sort of bench before and still have several internationals still to return?

Our squad is so much stronger this season and when you look at the 23 in Ulster shirts last Friday night it gives me hope that it will continue to improve for a while yet.

Our starting front row had an average age of 30 and the one on the bench had an average age of 24.

We took off a 28 year old and a 33 year old and replaced them with two 21 year olds. They joined a team that had started two 20 year olds. This is just the sort of thing that Leinster have been doing for a while and it has worked so well. I think we will challenge alright and keep on challenging until the other teams catch on to what works and catch us all up again!

SUFTUM

There is a massive differance between getting there and being able to challenge. Ulster are a team in the ascendency in Irish Rugby, no doubt. But a scoreline of 42-14 in the last Heineken cup Final against Leinster suggests a long way to go.

I think we are up there anyway. But its just so new and shocking to us. I'm overjoyed at the minute, but at the same time I want to see if it continues over the next month or two before I go boasting to this extent.

That said, you can look at Ulsters backup players like Fitzpatrick, Stevenson(Tuohy?), Diack, Henderson, P Marshall, L Marshall, Allen, Gilroy, D'Arcy and judge that these players could be regular starters for five/six other Rabo clubs.

If we have the squad to challenge Leinster, then I do want it to be Leinster that we challenge. If thats it another HC final, then all the better.

I don't want Leinster to go out to Clermont or Saracens and then call us lucky for getting further.

I long for the day where we simply outplay Leinster either in Rabo or HC. The HC final last season still stings significantly. The day is coming.

Clive you have just made the point I was about to.

I think Ulster are definitely on a par with Leinster.

However I don't think Leinster are as good as they once were. Injury, a lack of top new players and sticking with the same core for the last few years has seen a bit of staleness.

red_stag wrote:Clive you have just made the point I was about to.

I think Ulster are definitely on a par with Leinster.

However I don't think Leinster are as good as they once were. Injury, a lack of top new players and sticking with the same core for the last few years has seen a bit of staleness.

Really? After getting thumped in the Final last year how can you describe them as being on Par with Leinster?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

red_stag wrote:Clive you have just made the point I was about to.

I think Ulster are definitely on a par with Leinster.

However I don't think Leinster are as good as they once were. Injury, a lack of top new players and sticking with the same core for the last few years has seen a bit of staleness.

Really? After getting thumped in the Final last year how can you describe them as being on Par with Leinster?

Because that was last year and this is this year.

Ulster have new players, new experience and new coaches.

Leinster have done zero development as a team. No youngsters look as though they are breaking into the team with new ideas. No new players taking the team to another level. When your at the top the only way is down.

They are still a great team but I think they have regressed and Ulster have improved.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

red_stag wrote:Clive you have just made the point I was about to.

I think Ulster are definitely on a par with Leinster.

However I don't think Leinster are as good as they once were. Injury, a lack of top new players and sticking with the same core for the last few years has seen a bit of staleness.

Really? After getting thumped in the Final last year how can you describe them as being on Par with Leinster?

I agree Ulster have Improved a lot, but I wouldn't have said Leinster have regressed. They weren't brilliant at the weekend but are still IMO the best team in Europe. Ulster I expect to do very well in the competition like they did last year.

I do however think Leinster are the only team capable of standing up to the likes of Tolouse, Clermont and Toulon.

Harlequins would surely come into contention.

Personally I dont think any of the Irish teams will win the cup. I think its a French team - one of those three with Harlequins challenging them

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I agree Ulster have Improved a lot, but I wouldn't have said Leinster have regressed. They weren't brilliant at the weekend but are still IMO the best team in Europe. Ulster I expect to do very well in the competition like they did last year.

I do however think Leinster are the only team capable of standing up to the likes of Tolouse, Clermont and Toulon.

You mean apart from Ulster, Harlequins, Leicester, Gloucester, Edinburgh who beat Toulouse / Clermont last year?

I also think Leinster are after peaking. They've roughly the same team for the past 2 or 3 seasons but older.

Ulster are making great strides and I backed them to win the HEC a few months back so I know all about their talent. I wouldn't say they're up there with Leinster yet. The season is only starting and Leinster are crippled with injuries. SOB is Leinsters best player and would be a loss for any team. Add another 6 - 10 injuries onto that and most teams would start to struggle.

The problem for Ulster in trying to catch up to Leinster is if they do it might not be for long. Theres a new wave of Leinster players coming in the next 3 - 5 years which will make Leinster stronger. The Leinster school team trounced the other 3 provinces in the interpros recently. Their problem in 3 - 5 years time will be who to drop.

Edinburgh beat tolouse last year. I was there, and beleive me I don't need to be reminded. That doesn't change the fact that I thought Edinburgh would not be able to beat Toulouse.

I still don't think they could do it again. That was a trully special occasion. I concede Leicester and perhaps Quinns could be in contention this year.

However I would be much happier facing Ulster than any of the teams you mentioned.

In the semi Final between Ulster and Edinburgh last season I don't think there was much between the teams at all. Ulster had a stronger set piece and Pinaar was outstanding.

This weekend you guys have Glasgow and to be honest if Glasgow weren't ravaged by injuries (players missing : Cusiter, Welsh, Lowe, Harley, Weir, DTH, S. Lamont, R. Lamont) I feel they would have a reasonable chance of beating Ulster. As it stands at the moment I feel Ulster will be far to good for Glasgow to deal with.

I feel you are misinterperating my comments here. I rate Ulster very highly and as I said I feel they are in the ascendency in Irish Rugby. I do however feel that there is still a gap between teams like Ulster, Glasgow, Scarlets and to an Extent Edinburgh between the top teams in Europe. These teams have taken considerable scalps last year but consistancy is critical this year.

Edinburgh have already been exposed last weekend by getting pummeled by the Saffercens and have shown to be inconsistent thus far. Should Ulster be able to repeat their performances of last year then yes I would say they have a squad to be on par with Leinster and the other Euro Giants.

I think Ulster are up with Leinster currently, but Leinster have an extra gear (they have'nt found this year yet) that Ulster don't. Ulster may be able to win against Tolouse, Clermont and Toulon and Leinster now, but not on the regular basis Leinster have been.

Leinster haven't hit form yet and in truth and on form are behind ulster. Now form is temporary and I wouldn't be sticking money down on ulster. That being said I don't think we will see the same resistance to age that BOD once showed and I think his loss will be MASSIVE. Can't be quantified if you ask me. The scrum isn't looking as solid either but then there see young guys like furlong, coghlan and gilsenan coming in. I think Schmidt needs to give some of these guys their head soon enough. Ryan and Ruddock might be the lost generation IMO.

I think ulster will become the number one province but I think we might be another year off. Can't wait for 21st December

I'd say Ulster are very close to being good enough to win the HC,the only question mark over the squad is at 10 and even there Marshalls good form means that Pienaar can take over if Jackson gets injured.

Ulster should win the big one in the next few years provided they don't get shafted by bad luck (injuries,away semi-finals in France etc...)

Have to confess, I'm not a big fan of the Christmass derbies.

The IRFU always use them as a time to give the international players a christmass holiday, and therefore its not as good as the ones a few weeks back.

If they were scheduled to be in Jan just before the next H-cup round they would be better.

I think th eIRFU should look at changing this as Christmas games should sell out anyway, and the Derbies should sell out, no better to have them in build up to H-cup when full strenght teams will play.

Agree with Kingshu

If they were played with full strength teams they'd be so much better,they are on over the holidays so you would expect good crowds.

The problem is that the games are played too close together,Ulster only had a 4 day break between the Leinster and Munster games last year if I remember correctly,that forces a coach into an extreme form of rotation.

I remember watching the HC final last season, how does that performance of Ulster compare.

Were they just poor on the day?

Think we were just outclassed by a better team,

We didn't perform as well as we could have, (stagefright).

We have a very poor record against Leinster (Connacht have a better record against them)

I would have nearly have prefered to have met Clermot in the final, just think Leinster hold some sort of magic spell over us, and don't ever perform well against them.

However I think this year it may change (hopefully).

Yep

Biltong wrote:I remember watching the HC final last season, how does that performance of Ulster compare.

Were they just poor on the day?

Personally I think that at the time Leinster were much better.

However the addition of Tommy Bowe and Jarred Payne have been two excellent additions to their backline. Their young flyhalf Paddy Jackson was thrown into the starting role in the semi final phase and was very over awed coming up against Leinster. He has made his peace with starting for Ulster and looks much more settled. In the pack new signing Nick Williams has arguably been the best Ulster player so far this year. And new coach Mark Anscombe has brought in new ideas and new energy.

The HC Final is an indicator of where Ulster were but they have done a lot of evolving since then.

Also for reaching th efinal last year, think we are playing better rugby than last year, have a stronger squad, and all the players have uppped thier game from last year.

This Ulster team, is currently much improved from last years Ulster team.

as can be seen, on Euro table, currently 5th, 2 months ago 13th

http://www.eurorugby.com/index.php

Is the Leinster backline not aging a little by now, their backline has been great for them for the last 4 seasons or so, but guys like O'Driscoll and D'Arcy are getting a bit old now aren't they?

Biltong wrote:Is the Leinster backline not aging a little by now, their backline has been great for them for the last 4 seasons or so, but guys like O'Driscoll and D'Arcy are getting a bit old now aren't they?

I think their centres are yes. Outside of that they are fairly ok.

I wouldn't go writing Leinster off just yet. They may have stalled a bit but will be firing on all cylinders when the injury list shortens.

As for Ulster I would like to point out this improvement hasn't just been this season. We have been steadily improving over the past three seasons but because of the depth of squad we are now adding consistency.

profitius wrote:

The problem for Ulster in trying to catch up to Leinster is if they do it might not be for long. Theres a new wave of Leinster players coming in the next 3 - 5 years which will make Leinster stronger. The Leinster school team trounced the other 3 provinces in the interpros recently. Their problem in 3 - 5 years time will be who to drop.

I think you need to have a look at what is happening at junior level in Ulster. We have just won an Interpro Series Grand Slam at U20 level. The U19's are doing well and the foundations have been well set for the future with guys like McLaughlin and Clarke now on board.

I think that in future the Powerhouse of Irish rugby will be Leinster.

In the inter Pro days it was fairly even between the 3, but now I see Leinster and either Munster or Ulster battling it out to be best in Ireland, I don't forsee a time when Munster and Ulster will be battling each other for best in Ireland, Leinster will always be in the mix, either 1st, or 2nd, but never dropping to 3rd province which Ulster and Munster can.

Ulster are currently a better side than Leinster. It's easy to say because all you have to do is observe. They're better and they're looking like they'll be a heavy work load for any side they meet this year in either Pro12 or HEC.

But it's also quite easy to observe that Leinster aren't a patch on the team they can be - or perhaps a fairer wording is to say they aren't a patch on what they were. (Maybe the heyday years of ascendancy are truly drifting away from them).

So have some sides rushed up to Leinster's standards and in turn are now making Leinster look very ordinary? Or is it just that Leinster have sunk and are now swimming back in the same pool of ability that other sides continue to float in.

I'd say it's a bit of both obviously, given that Ulster are proving their worth now in two competitions whilst Leinster certainly have their injuries and the lack of rhythm it is causing.

But Leinster aren't the standard bearer this year by any means and sides/followers shouldn't be lulled into a game of comparing and contrasting using Leinster as the measuring stick.............. yet!

There are more dangerous threats out there waiting in the long grass for Ulster. Keep vigilent

SecretFly wrote:

There are more dangerous threats out there waiting in the long grass for Ulster. Keep vigilent

I'm very aware of that Fly. One of them actually wears green to try to hide in that long grass. We will have to be very wary of them in December.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:There is a massive differance between getting there and being able to challenge. Ulster are a team in the ascendency in Irish Rugby, no doubt. But a scoreline of 42-14 in the last Heineken cup Final against Leinster suggests a long way to go.

Not really, that was between the first XVs. This is about depth. Whether we have a successful enough first XV to deliver silverware remains to be seen. But our squad is getting stronger without doubt.

I think that Toulon and Clermont will be the teams they beat this year; although I'm not ruling Leinster out I do feel three in a row will be a bridge too far. I do think Ulster have become a much more serious proposition in a very short space of time. Mainly due to the effect of having a new coach. Ulster and Harlequins should be considered dark horses for the tournament, but as for Ulster, we have to deal with Saints first. We need a win tomorrow night and at least a LBP in Round 3. Then we'll be well placed

This current Ulster side will leave last years side in the dust. But right now, we are in a similar situation to Leinster. We're yet to deliver a performance that really shows what we are capable of. We've only had one really good performance this year.

As good a place as any to point out to everyone that Ulster are the only team in Heineken Cup to have not lost a game yet this season in Domestic/Heiny combined.

.................................. don't zinx it.

We are getting way ahead of ourselves. Have we a good squad? Yes. Are we improved? Yes. Our first XV is one of the better ones in the competition, but so are Clermont, Toulon, Toulouse, Leinster and Harlequins. Someone like Saracans may make some fans eyes bleed with their dull style but they will be very difficult to beat.
We have to get out of our group first which is a huge challenge. We must beat Glasgow home and away with bonus points to have a shot of getting through because I do not see us winning at both Castres away, a difficult place to go, and Northampton. Glasgow are certainly no mugs and we are playing a dangerous game here writing them off (except Notch). Glasgow fans have set the bar so low with their injury list that all they have to do is not trip over it for their performance to be a success. If we are in this position at Christmas then we can start dreaming. How many games have we played? Seven is it? It's not enough to go on to say we are Ireland's best team.











We are better than Munster though.

Think everyone was aware of that Clive! We're feiced now!

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:We are better than Munster though.

Ugh Munster are loike so old money roysh.

Toulouse might play champagne rugby but loike at Leinster they play mocca-frappucino rugby.

Now I'm beginning to like this thread!!!

Rava wrote:

Think everyone was aware of that Clive! We're feiced now!

If we are feiced, it'll surely not be till after this weekend!

I don't think anyone is saying we are better than Leinster and we are going to win the HEC.

What we are saying is that we have the squad to have a chance to compete with the big boys all season, not just in one off matches. Not just if we get an easy draw. Not just if someone else does us a favour. We are not saying we will beat everyone in Europe or the Pro12 but that we have a chance to compete with them.

Last season I think most of us would agree we were punching above our weight.

Still very early days and we are a couple of injuries away from having to field players in some key positions that would definately change the shape of our season but we are improving the depth of our squad enormously.

MrsP wrote:I don't think anyone is saying we are better than Leinster and we are going to win the HEC.

What we are saying is that we have the squad to have a chance to compete with the big boys all season, not just in one off matches. Not just if we get an easy draw. Not just if someone else does us a favour. We are not saying we will beat everyone in Europe or the Pro12 but that we have a chance to compete with them.

Last season I think most of us would agree we were punching above our weight.

Still very early days and we are a couple of injuries away from having to field players in some key positions that would definately change the shape of our season but we are improving the depth of our squad enormously.

Could be there are some people saying it secretly to themselves, or to their friends offline

I've already said it. Not the HEC part though............... ............ well, you gotta save a little hope for yourself in this dark world of clowns, cigars and medallions.

MrsP wrote:I don't think anyone is saying we are better than Leinster and we are going to win the HEC.

What we are saying is that we have the squad to have a chance to compete with the big boys all season, not just in one off matches. Not just if we get an easy draw. Not just if someone else does us a favour. We are not saying we will beat everyone in Europe or the Pro12 but that we have a chance to compete with them.

Last season I think most of us would agree we were punching above our weight.

Still very early days and we are a couple of injuries away from having to field players in some key positions that would definately change the shape of our season but we are improving the depth of our squad enormously.

Exactly Mrs P, not saying we're better or even at Leinsters Level, but we are reaching a stage we can compete with them. And not saying we're going to win Pro 12 or H-cup as Leinster fans aren't even saying that, and we accept that we're not quite on thier level yet.

Re: Ulster now boasts a squad depth that can challenge Leinster in the league and Heineken Cup
by Rava Today at 4:08 pm

MrsP wrote:
I don't think anyone is saying we are better than Leinster and we are going to win the HEC.

What we are saying is that we have the squad to have a chance to compete with the big boys all season, not just in one off matches. Not just if we get an easy draw. Not just if someone else does us a favour. We are not saying we will beat everyone in Europe or the Pro12 but that we have a chance to compete with them.

Last season I think most of us would agree we were punching above our weight.

Still very early days and we are a couple of injuries away from having to field players in some key positions that would definately change the shape of our season but we are improving the depth of our squad enormously.

Could be there are some people saying it secretly to themselves, or to their friends offline."



Maybe!

But those folks would have to have a track record of predicting the fortunes of Ulster to a very acturate degree over the past couple of seasons inspite of everyone elses scepticism!

They would have to have been so sure that Ulster would be in the final last season that they had bought their ticket before the groups were even announced!



Wait a minute....

I've been rumbled

Rava wrote:

MrsP wrote:I don't think anyone is saying we are better than Leinster and we are going to win the HEC.

What we are saying is that we have the squad to have a chance to compete with the big boys all season, not just in one off matches. Not just if we get an easy draw. Not just if someone else does us a favour. We are not saying we will beat everyone in Europe or the Pro12 but that we have a chance to compete with them.

Last season I think most of us would agree we were punching above our weight.

Still very early days and we are a couple of injuries away from having to field players in some key positions that would definately change the shape of our season but we are improving the depth of our squad enormously.

Could be there are some people saying it secretly to themselves, or to their friends offline

Folks have friends offline? - this is outrageous!

Asbo, its perfectly natural to have friends offline unless you are:

(a) - A horrible git
(b) - A referee
(c) - Paddy Wallace

Even more outrageous is that some of us have friends from.... ... ... ...

England!

(Although they claim to have lived in Scotland once upon a time, very long ago. So long ago in fact that they use the first part of some "Declaration" or something that they wrote while they lived there as their user name!)

red_stag wrote:Asbo, its perfectly natural to have friends offline unless you are:

(a) - A horrible git
(b) - A referee
(c) - Paddy Wallace

I actually know some who qualify on two of those counts.

Rava wrote:

red_stag wrote:Asbo, its perfectly natural to have friends offline unless you are:

(a) - A horrible git
(b) - A referee
(c) - Paddy Wallace

I actually know some who qualify on two of those counts.

Is it Paddy Wallace?