Trump International Golf Links

First topic message reminder :

Very interesting documentary worth watching was on BBC2 last night.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01nln7g/Youve_Been_Trumped/

After watching it, I have no urge to play there after what that man has done to the local people. Nor did it put the local police in a good light either.

3putt,
I'll write a check for 5 million fantasy dollars, for a charity of your selection, if you can prove your negative bias towards the Trump course hasn't got anything to do with the man himself. (offer ends October 31st)

Bob_the_Job wrote:Fofence (Fo-f-nce), verb: to heighten tensions on an internet board by assigning an unrealistic degree of moral outrage and indignation to something most people don't give a toss about. See also "Doing a Mac"

I can see it now as an entry in the Urban Dictionary

I'm sorry Mac but .

get with the program, pedro. in the original discussion, i made my objections about the man quite clear. now, back away from the scene, we don't need you folks getting hurt.

For starters it is not faux offence. I find the following pretty objectionable;

Ruining an SSSI

claiming a golf course will improve that sssi

bullying people who do not have the same power as you

ruining homes where generations of families have lived

building Poopie golf courses

having governments change the rules for the rich

not having a clue what you are talking about, yet claiming someone lives on a slum.

lying about job creation to get approval for a project then offering nothing to the economy.


Then to find out someone - who gets away with being perceived as a decent bloke on here - is willing to line the pockets of the person who committed all those offences.

And jas, it is one thing to buy things for those around you but quite another to offer compassion to those you will never meet. So yes selfish is how I would describe your attitude to trumpton.

Mac, you haven't cared enough to visit the site before or after. You just object from your armchair.

I would dearly love to know what you would think of it if it was Doak who had made it.

You know nothing about the project apart from what you've seen on a biased programme and your own prejudices. So leave your pious opinions on what we should think about the project in your tiny little head

Incidentally Mac, I take it that before you ever set foot on your beloved Braids that you checked historical records to make sure that no local resident was shunted to make way for it, that the construction company engaged paid all their workers a decent working wage (along with full sick pay if they were ill) and that all the equipment used passed all the safety requirements of the day. Of course you should be able to tell us all how the project was funded and who made what when presumably at some point it was sold to the cooncil?

Obviously to not have done that research to establish the facts then wade into those that are choosing to play Trumps casting aside their moral obligation not to (in your eyes), that would make you hypocritical would it not?

JAS, we don't know what MAc does for a living but it could easily be testing on animals, weapons industry. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

Jas -

Was impressed by the staff at Trump Int'l. All very good at their jobs and mostly local. Prices weren't too bad in the shop either, some decent stuff.
Did you notice any weak holes?

No not a single weak hole Spaceman, the weakest thing about the setup at the moment is the clubhouse which is clearly a temporary structure (reminded me somewhat of Dundonalds clubhouse). No doubt that will change over time tho as good old Donald uses the money we're lining his pockets with at the moment .
I found the staff very professional yet friendly (clearly well trained). The food was perhaps on the expensive side of average cost wise but way above average in terms of quality.

What also impressed me was the practice facilities. I though the large short game chipping and bunker play area was great and I rather selfishly had it all to myself for about 20 minutes. Huge big putting area too.
Here's a challenge for you...which 2 holes did you think were most similar?

I don't have a dog in this particular fight so can't really comment other than to be extremely sceptical about anything Trump is involved with. Was amused though to see that his latest self serving publicity stunt has been well and truly trumped by of all people the Guardian today! Tee hee!!!

Jas

You still offer no explanation as to why your are willing to line trumps pockets and overlook the evils of trumptons creation?

Mac, I'll bet you do some stuff every day that has had a repercussion on many aspects of society.

You supporting the buses for example is lining the pockets of the Polish drivers who are keeping your Edinburgh brethren on the dole.

I've no problem playing Trumps course. You really do protest too much.

You've never been to the site, so haven't seen how it impacts on the environment. Stop being such a poofter.

JAS wrote:Here's a challenge for you...which 2 holes did you think were most similar?

Mmm not sure on that one my memory is terrible. Too busy desperately trying to hit a fairway and not lose anymore balls!

Your memory's not terrible Spaceman because the answer is none.
Good work on Hawtree's part in adhering to one of Dr McKenzies guiding principles...every hole should present a different challenge, no 2 holes should be similar.

JAS wrote:Your memory's not terrible Spaceman because the answer is none.
Good work on Hawtree's part in adhering to one of Dr McKenzies guiding principles...every hole should present a different challenge, no 2 holes should be similar.

Ah, thank god for that! Thought I'd gone mad!

I feel a bit sorry for Hawtree, he designed an absolute gem but Trump and his 'ways' are the headlines.

The thing is, the course will be around long after Trump has pegged it, maybe then it will get the unfettered acclaim it's design deserves, will probably be long after Hawtree has gone too though.

Oi, Mac ... I see the little people are fighting back ...

http://news.stv.tv/north/196354-trump-opponent-pressing-for-fresh-inquiry-into-golf-course-handling/

closing, horse, gate, bolted, after.


The course is there and no one can do anything about it. I'll think of you and Mac crying (crocodile tears in Mac's case) yourselves to sleep when I play it next year.

McLaren wrote:Jas

You still offer no explanation as to why your are willing to line trumps pockets and overlook the evils of trumptons creation?

Is it your reading skills or your comprehension skills that you're struggling with?? I paid good money to play what I consider to be an awesome golf course....it's as plain and simple as that. It wasn't cheap but I've paid more elsewhere, I felt I got value for money.

Unlike quite a few I can make a clear separation between appreciating the fantastic piece of work that it is and Trumps business practices which at times lurch into the unpleasant. I make no apologies for being able to make that distinction. Life is waaaaay to short to cut your nose off to spite your face

By the way, you never answered my question about your knowledge of the history of the Braids

Mac lives in a cave, no electricity, no gas. No newspapers. He generates electricty with static for his network connection and he eats only what falls off trees. He makes golf clubs from old walking sticks and golf balls from puff balls.

That way he can be holier than thou about everything he does, safe in the knowledge he's 100% guilt free, fairways trimmed by rabbit and bunkers developed by the weathering of the wind, no rakes of course.

By the way Mac, playing TOC on saturday for nothing. I'll take a few pictures on my pin hole brownie of your utopian ideal that you can load up on your wax cylinder later.

super_realist wrote:closing, horse, gate, bolted, after.


The course is there and no one can do anything about it. I'll think of you and Mac crying (crocodile tears in Mac's case) yourselves to sleep when I play it next year.

What a tiresome wummy fellow you are s_r. This is not about a golf course. It's about the methods used to bring about the construction of a golf course.

Gael, reference your earlier post I completely agree that the course should never have been built. whether the site merited its SSSSI status is immaterial, it had it and it was ignored because a ridiculous businessman made promises he has since not kept. Even more troubling for me is the way the authorities, in particular the police, appear to have been coopted in to Trump project.

I won't be playing the course whilst it is under Trump ownership. I think the best thing that could happen now would be for Trump to sell up and for the course to be taken on by someone else who could start by making some recompense to the residents.

Wonder what a few F.O.I. requests to the Scottish Parliament etc would reveal about the way the original planning rejection was over-ridden?
I hope the whole tawdry midden heap gets either washed into the sea or is so difficult to maintain, it's allowed to go back to being wild.

What's clear enough from that "You've Been Trumped" documentary is that, even if only a small amount is true, the man is horrendous. He's a Class A bullshitter but nasty to boot. The only funny thing about the whole episode is the slimy politicians bought it, hook, line and sinker.

gaelgowfer wrote:

super_realist wrote:closing, horse, gate, bolted, after.


The course is there and no one can do anything about it. I'll think of you and Mac crying (crocodile tears in Mac's case) yourselves to sleep when I play it next year.

What a tiresome wummy fellow you are s_r. This is not about a golf course. It's about the methods used to bring about the construction of a golf course.

Not about a golf course?? Gael, the 3rd and 4th words in the thread title would tend to suggest otherwise and I've tried (under much provocation) to stick to commenting on the golf course but all those that haven't played it want to bleat on about how evil Trump is (don't get me wrong I don't disagree that he's an unsavoury character and yes the thread title bears his name too) but at the end of the day this IS a golf forum and not a focal point for directing our ire at public figures we don't like. There is of course the "anything goes" thread for discussing non golf issues.

Navy I can assure you, it's no midden, I look forward to the day when Trump no longer owns it and those that refuse to play it out of principle are able to look at it from a different perspective and perhaps have a round on it. Maybe then everybody can have a decent debate on the merits of the course rather than the unscrupulousness of the current owner.

navyblueshorts wrote:Wonder what a few F.O.I. requests to the Scottish Parliament etc would reveal about the way the original planning rejection was over-ridden?
I hope the whole tawdry midden heap gets either washed into the sea or is so difficult to maintain, it's allowed to go back to being wild.

What's clear enough from that "You've Been Trumped" documentary is that, even if only a small amount is true, the man is horrendous. He's a Class A bullshitter but nasty to boot. The only funny thing about the whole episode is the slimy politicians bought it, hook, line and sinker.

You've said it way better than I could. I totally agree. I can absolutely swear that I will never play that Golf course. The way the residents and locals have been treated has been dreadful.

Trump lives on a different planet. His latest offer to Mr Obama (5 million dollar cheque) is bizarre, agreesive, and racist.

JAS

It would be good if The Great Fart no longer had anything to do with it but, for me, it still wouldn't make me want to play it. I don't necessarily doubt it's a good course in a pure golfing sense but I can't buy into the "Well, it's there now. There's no sense wringing our hands on how it got here. Let's go play it!" logic about playing a round there.
I suspect you're right re. some (many?) other famous courses' construction in the past but I'm not sure that's good justification for continuing to rubber stamp a dubious development in this day and age.
Be interesting as well to see if he circumvented any parts of the agreed planning application. If he did, I would hope he's forced into making good what he's done.

Gael

Thanks for the link.


JAS

But why are you able to make the separation between course and how it was constructed? Would you normally but products from companies with questionable ethics? As for thinking this is taking the conversation away from golf and towards OT you are wrong. What could be more crucial to golf than how its courses are built and the image that creates for the game.

And no matter who owns it i will not be playing golf there.

Braids history will follow soon, i need to dig out some of my old articles on it.

So Mac...if you got the chance to play Augusta National would you take it?

JAS wrote:So Mac...if you got the chance to play Augusta National would you take it?

There is no doubt it would be very tempting, and should the opportunity ever arise I hope i can remain as objective as I am now, but no. I would not take up the offer. Of course you don't believe that, but I really cant think of a worse group of people to spend time with.


So would you care to explain how it is you manage to separate the way companies produce things and you buying products regardless of how they came to be?

I was on an ecology board once and a row broke out about whether it was easier to draw a 3iron or a 5wood.

Mac, there probably isn't a company in the world that hasn't had some sort of sinister or un-ethical element to their business conduct. You act all Johnathon Porrit about things but I reckon you unwittingly as a consumer in a capitalist society swell their bank balance.

If you were to delve deeply enough I reckon you'd find that to be true.

Bob_the_Job wrote:I was on an ecology board once and a row broke out about whether it was easier to draw a 3iron or a 5wood.

McLaren wrote:

JAS wrote:So Mac...if you got the chance to play Augusta National would you take it?

There is no doubt it would be very tempting, and should the opportunity ever arise I hope i can remain as objective as I am now, but no. I would not take up the offer. Of course you don't believe that, but I really cant think of a worse group of people to spend time with.


So would you care to explain how it is you manage to separate the way companies produce things and you buying products regardless of how they came to be?

Well if true, that's very principled of you. As you would expect I would certainly take up any offer that came my way despite their abhorrent history of Racism and sexual discrimination. Why? simply because its a great course and i'd refuse to allow my principles to get in the way of such an opportunity. Your hero Woods (ok perhaps not the greatest example of someone of high standing morals and principles) quite happily accepts his invite. So does the squeaky clean God bothering Zach. It would appear that most pro's can also make a simple separation too. Clearly we're just going to have to accept that our moral and ethical judgements differ, you have yours and I have mine. Whilst I think you're putting barriers up to your full enjoyment of your sport I respect that you have your principles and are prepared to stick to them. Your only problem is you think everybody else should make the same sacrifices as you.

Lets not forget Woods has been sponsored by Nike for the majority of his professional career and they have some what questionable labouring principles.

Did you know Mac uses a black golf ball because he thinks a white one is being discriminatory?

super_realist wrote:Did you know Mac uses a black golf ball because he thinks a white one is being discriminatory?

For balance he needs to think about a yellow ball too, lots of Chinese getting into golf now.

Lol, just been txt'd a Chinese joke as I was typing that...how Spooky.
I would tell it but na I'm not going to bother for fear of sending the PC intelligencia on here into a state of complete apoplexy .

On the subject of the Chinese, the way golf is growing there and the way their economy is growing I think it's only a matter of time before the Chinese mega rich start buying into the homeland of golf....
What odds would you get on trumps course being Chinese owned before the end of the decade??

JAS, I think they'll just copy some of the famous courses and build them back home. How does Shang-Andrews sound?

True, the planning laws and locals are probably a bit more relaxed back home....or dare I say it, more conditioned to authoritarian brutality

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/358865

Oh joy, course number two confirmed assuming the planning department cave in again and the police stop any reasonable protest. I guess the demand from the morally corrupt (like Jas ) is just too strong to fight.

Mac, can't say for certain but I rather think planning permission for the second course would have been given at the same time as the rest of the project. I seem to recall it was included in the original application.

Getting the distinct impression that wellies might be more appropriate than golf shoes for this course though.

Seems those wind turbines are not quite the eyesore Trump makes them out to be.

Mac, morally corrupt is waaaaaay out of order, you don't know me from Adam but you jump to a conclusion like that because I'm happy to play a great golf course????

gaelgowfer wrote:
Getting the distinct impression that wellies might be more appropriate than golf shoes for this course though.

Only if you spray it right on the 4th Gael or don't select the right club off the tee on the 2nd or snap hook it on 18.
Two months on and I can still remember more or less every hole and that's what puts it up there with the other top drawer courses.
The fairways are not behaving like true links fairways should yet, they are softer than you expect from links but a far cry from being boggy.

JAS wrote:Mac, morally corrupt is waaaaaay out of order, you don't know me from Adam but you jump to a conclusion like that because I'm happy to play a great golf course????

I think Mac was kidding.

If not, ushiro mawashi geri - ashi barai - gyaku zuki. Ippon.

Skydriver wrote:

JAS wrote:Mac, morally corrupt is waaaaaay out of order, you don't know me from Adam but you jump to a conclusion like that because I'm happy to play a great golf course????

I think Mac was kidding.

If not, ushiro mawashi geri - ashi barai - gyaku zuki. Ippon.

Och Skydriver I'm sick to death of the morally outraged easily offended moaning away on these boards. I had posts removed last week with no explanation, probably because some of the boards more mentally fragile creatures found it difficult. So...what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander I'm asserting my right to be foffended at cheap personal insults, whether meant in jest or not.

JAS wrote:

gaelgowfer wrote:
Getting the distinct impression that wellies might be more appropriate than golf shoes for this course though.

Only if you spray it right on the 4th Gael or don't select the right club off the tee on the 2nd or snap hook it on 18.
Two months on and I can still remember more or less every hole and that's what puts it up there with the other top drawer courses.
The fairways are not behaving like true links fairways should yet, they are softer than you expect from links but a far cry from being boggy.

Morning JAS.

I was referring to the proposed second course:

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/358865

Dr Hawtree said the second course would be more “relaxed” than its “high-flying neighbour” and explore the “beauties of the land behind the dunes”. He added: “The sea of heather-clad undulations, the isolated small lochs, the network of burns and the higher ground behind this land provides fine views of the whole links.

Ah, I see Gael. I'm not sure, given the suggested routing, that a 2nd course would come close to matching the first one. The article is a bit confusing too suggesting that it will be routed along the coastal line and separated from the existing course by the driving range...eh? The driving range is further inland than the original course, how does that work?

Also...a retraction, posts I thought had been removed I can see this morning.

JAS wrote:Ah, I see Gael. I'm not sure, given the suggested routing, that a 2nd course would come close to matching the first one. The article is a bit confusing too suggesting that it will be routed along the coastal line and separated from the existing course by the driving range...eh? The driving range is further inland than the original course, how does that work?

I've never been to Menie so I can only go from what I can remember from the original plans and it looked like the second course would be in more of a westerly rather than southerly direction and, given drainage issues had to be dealt with on the first course, it just seemed to me this would only worsen the further inland you went.

There is no way I will ever play this course. I hope scottish politicians, aberdeen councillors and grampian police connected with this morally indefensible project are brought to account in the fullness of time.

gaelgowfer wrote:

JAS wrote:Ah, I see Gael. I'm not sure, given the suggested routing, that a 2nd course would come close to matching the first one. The article is a bit confusing too suggesting that it will be routed along the coastal line and separated from the existing course by the driving range...eh? The driving range is further inland than the original course, how does that work?

There is no way I will ever play this course.

Well given your home course Gael you're in the fortunate position of having ready access to world class golf anyway

gaelgowfer wrote:
morally indefensible project .

You make it sound like a Jimmy Saville theme park!!

Jas

What dont you understand about the morally indefensible way in which Trump went about building these courses?

As anyone following the news of late will know; facilitating the crime is almost as bad as perpetrating it.

Mac, what makes you think I don't understand??? I've said many times that Trump is an odious creature with at best dodgy business practices. I just choose not to get upset by that or let it cloud/taint my judgement of Hawtree's masterpiece. For Chrissakes Mac, we live in a democracy, we're allowed ( as far as I'm aware) to have differing views. The course is there, you ain't going to change that, i'd suggest you stop making yourself ill worrying about how it got there.