England, who put their hand up?

First topic message reminder :

After yesterdays games who stood out and put their hand up for a late england call. I didnt see the saints vs sarries game so any input from that game would be good.

From the first game of the day (Bath vs Exeter) I thought Eastmond again looked very good, he is not just pace and a step this guy has a lot more to his game, this autumn will certainly be too soon for him but one to keep an eye on. Sadly Attwood isn't having the kind of impact in games that threatens the EPS but Fearns does continue to impress although Louw is the real star performer in the bath pack.

Exeter played their part in a competitive game and I thought Haydn Thomas was a live wire and key to the tempo they play at, obviously he is in a very competitive position but probably playing the best rugby of his career and is worth a mention. Another good performance from Tom Johnson and he has to be a serious contender for the 1st 15.

2nd game, Gloucester vs Tigers. For Glous Freddie Burns was clearly the standout player, took his try fantastically well and his all round game was great, just feel he would have to reign in his attacking instincts a tad in the test arena. the other player who stood out was 12trees, I thought he was excellent yesterday going forward and particularly in defense. Surely its just a matter of time before 12trees makes the england inside centre shirt his own.

Didn't really go tigers and floods way yesterday but still thought flood looked sharp, kicking was generally good and passing had a zip about it, hit a couple of gaps too. not a great performance by any means but he'll have better days with this form. Dan Cole was again outstanding, scrummaging and breakdown work were world class. the tigers 2nd row looks to be a complementary partnership, well balanced, lineout creaked a bit but looked more to do with Youngs timing than the jumpers. I wouldn't be surprised if deacon earns a recall before the 606 darlings garvey and attwood get called up.

special mention for James Simpson Daniel sadly i feel any test hopes are fading now but what a player we have missed out on for England.

Kennedy is another who was absolutely wasted...is it something about LI players?

Garvey, S.Armitage, Kennedy....

Bathite wrote:

beshocked wrote:

HQ matt wrote:come on guys this negativity is depressing.

along with wentzel and borthwick, parling and robson are the best lineout forwards in the AP.

it seems to me that some posters just want to see players selected for england because they haven't had an opportunity to disappoint yet.

HQ matt the lineout pecking order goes:

1.Borthwick
2.Wentzel







Far behind - Robson and Parling - these guys aren't close to the top 2 when they are fully fit.

I'd probably go for the following in terms of pure lineout ability

Kennedy
Borthwick
Wentzel
Croft
Parling

I absolutely disagree. Have you ever looked at the AP lineout stats?

beshocked wrote:

Bathite wrote:

beshocked wrote:

HQ matt wrote:come on guys this negativity is depressing.

along with wentzel and borthwick, parling and robson are the best lineout forwards in the AP.

it seems to me that some posters just want to see players selected for england because they haven't had an opportunity to disappoint yet.

HQ matt the lineout pecking order goes:

1.Borthwick
2.Wentzel







Far behind - Robson and Parling - these guys aren't close to the top 2 when they are fully fit.

I'd probably go for the following in terms of pure lineout ability

Kennedy
Borthwick
Wentzel
Croft
Parling

I absolutely disagree. Have you ever looked at the AP lineout stats?

On lineout (or defence) it's hard to disagree with a Sarries fan.

Hood83 wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Bathite wrote:

beshocked wrote:

HQ matt wrote:come on guys this negativity is depressing.

along with wentzel and borthwick, parling and robson are the best lineout forwards in the AP.

it seems to me that some posters just want to see players selected for england because they haven't had an opportunity to disappoint yet.

HQ matt the lineout pecking order goes:

1.Borthwick
2.Wentzel







Far behind - Robson and Parling - these guys aren't close to the top 2 when they are fully fit.

I'd probably go for the following in terms of pure lineout ability

Kennedy
Borthwick
Wentzel
Croft
Parling

I absolutely disagree. Have you ever looked at the AP lineout stats?

On lineout (or defence) it's hard to disagree with a Sarries fan.

Just please don't mention tries and attacking stats.

beshocked wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Bathite wrote:

beshocked wrote:

HQ matt wrote:come on guys this negativity is depressing.

along with wentzel and borthwick, parling and robson are the best lineout forwards in the AP.

it seems to me that some posters just want to see players selected for england because they haven't had an opportunity to disappoint yet.

HQ matt the lineout pecking order goes:

1.Borthwick
2.Wentzel







Far behind - Robson and Parling - these guys aren't close to the top 2 when they are fully fit.

I'd probably go for the following in terms of pure lineout ability

Kennedy
Borthwick
Wentzel
Croft
Parling

I absolutely disagree. Have you ever looked at the AP lineout stats?

On lineout (or defence) it's hard to disagree with a Sarries fan.

Just please don't mention tries and attacking stats.

Ha, sorry, my veiled insult wasn't so veiled.

You're absolutely right re Borthwick though. Head and shoulders our best lineout operator. His workrate is actually pretty damn good as well. If he carried better he'd have had a long and distinguished England career. For that matter, if he'd been paired with a Bakkies Botha type, I see no reason why he couldn't have been a very good Test player.

Agree with that Hood.

I can understand why Borthwick is an unpopular figure though.

Borthwick as England captain was not an inspirational character. He just didn't meld well with the media either and that's part and parcel of the game these days.

He's rather be in the scenes getting on with his job of running the lineout and unseen work with little bother. He's never been the big ball carrier, enforcer, building forward momentum. His lack of threat with ball in hand is a weakness but you can get past this with the right balance.

Martin Johnson didn't help him by picking him as captain when it was debatable whether he was the form 2nd row at the time.

Kennedy used to be one of the best lineout guys around but he's no longer mentioned because he hasn't done anything of note.

Coaches must see something in Borthwick as captain or he wouldn't keep being given the responsibility. For Bath and Saracens he has been a very good captain. Maybe he's more in his comfort zone at a tightknit club environment. I don't know.

A point that people don't normally think of - players at club level play week in week out with the same guys. At international level you have to meld with guys in a relatively short space of time and are likely to play with guys you haven't before.

Much easier to get into a groove when you are in a effective 2nd row partnership or half back combo.

Just look at Borthwick's tackle count and you'll be very surprised.


My worry is that there is no lineout man or enforcer to really make the England 2nd row spot their own.

You are absolutely right re Borthwick beshocked. I did see the articles from sensible writers talking up his leadership at club level.

The biggest thing that struck me was when he was dropped from England we just didnt miss him at all.

True lostinwales but personally I think his lineout generalship is needed for England in the 2nd row currently

I don't expect people to agree but that's what I think. With a lack of 2nd row talent I think Borthwick's experience would be handy - especially with a relatively inexperienced backrow and frontrow expected to lineup.

Also with T.Youngs likely to line up at hooker an experienced lineout operator IMO would help control that area.

If England don't want Borthwick anymore that's fine. I can understand that but I personally feel he has more to offer in the short term.

My worry is that there is no lineout man or enforcer to really make the England 2nd row spot their own..

Beshocked, i actually believe there is...its just the current EPS restricts them being selected until January...well they can be but not in all the training sessions...so they wont likely be selected.

If only they weren't so old, Kohn-Borthwick, with Croft orWood at 6, would make a decent pairing!

CJ...i truely believe its a Kohn type player that England are missing...a big lump of brute strength in the engine room. That is why i keep suggesting Garvey...hes a similar type in that hes a monstrous lump and strong as an ox.

Very decent pairing! Kohn's having a bit of a storming season so far!