Irelands best possible successor to BOD is Jared Payne.

Well, Ireland has opened the door now with the selection of Strauss. And with BOD's ever increasing injury prone-ness, accompanied by Payne masterclass on Friday night, i suggest it's only right we consider the possibility albeit a year and a half away.

Also, I do believe Payne has suggested he would be happy to play for Ireland, but for the life of me, i can't remember when/where I heard that to prove it. Maybe someone can back me up on that?

P.S. I havn't put an option in the poll for "I think they should do away with the eligibility rule" because its not going to happen, every other country has the same rule, the floodgates have opened.

Please don't make the discussion about THAT. It won't change now.

I'm ok with it! ... not generally.... but I'll make an exception for Jared!

Nope, I don't think we should be looking at Payne, we are getting way ahead of ourselves here. Plus when he is IQ he will be 29, not exactly a long term option, on top of the fact he isn't irish anyway. We have quite a few 13s coming through the ranks, and in 2 years I hope at least one will have really made themselves known.

Also, why is Cave being written off so quickly? Don't forget how good he was last season. If he continues to start at 13 for Ulster in the next few seasons or more, then I doubt Payne will leapfrog him for the Ireland squad.

Rory I'm being tongue in cheek a bit. Personally I don't think Payne will ever play for us but if he did decide to then I'd be delighted.

Cave is a good player but Payne is different class imo. It shows how much talent the ABs have that he was so far down the pecking order.

Ireland will never see ANYTHING like BOD ever again. Enjoy what's left.

Totally agree Roger. BOD was/is a one-off special player. Like all the greats his boots will never be filled. He's a legend but the show must go on.

We don't know what the future will hold. Lets see who comes through the ranks and makes the 13 jersey their own, before writing them off as never being the same as BOD. Players have different strengths and weaknesses, not to mention the fact it is a team game rather than one focused on individuals.

Rodders, I certainly agree with you, but 2 years is a long time. We don't know who will be there to replace BOD in the 13 shirt. I hope they show up soon though.

Things change...

Was gutted to see Shane Williams retire but we now have two monsters on the wings and they are pretty special. Difference with Williams was he would appear in any position, try anything and his acceleration was immense.

Good examples there. Ireland could end up with a direct running 13 who thrives alongside a clever, playmaking 12. Especially considering the fact all of our upcoming 12s can also play 10. Or even prefer 10.

he would be our best 13 but he will be playing 15 at Ulster for the next while I'd imagine unless something drastic happens

Yep, he's going to be playing 15 for the foreseeable future.

The only way I can see that changing is if Gilroy magically turns in to an amazing fullback in which case it will be a shoot out between him and Cave......

Likelihood.......?
Slim.

Can Payne play any other positions just as a matter of interest?

I do believe he is the best 13 in ireland at the moment to be honest, BOD did show against Cardiff what he can still do though

RogerLewis wrote:Ireland will never see ANYTHING like BOD ever again. Enjoy what's left.

Stars come and stars go.
There's always the chance that the next guy is even better.

I remember listening to a radio show and someone saying

"When Kronfield started they said "He isn't a Michael Jones" and they were right, but he was still alright.
When McCaw started they said "He is a Kronfield" and they were right, but he's still alright."

So anyway who knows what the future will bring.

Some interesting comments. From an outside perspective:

1 - The eligibility rules are what they are, so if he is Irish qualified and playing the best rugby of the Irish qualified players, there's good reason to pick him. Maybe some of you might turn your nose up a bit, similar to many of us about Barritt or Botha, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong in hs selection.

2 - BOD has been a great player for you, and it is probably unrealistic to expect his successor to be even close to that level, but you never know.

3 - The comment regarding Shane Williams was a point well made. You might find that your next successful 13 bears little resemblance to BOD as a player, and instead is some 1.95m 115kg monster with pace and power.

4 - Introducing a newly eligible player at 29 years old 18 months to 2 years before a RWC is reasonable as long as you are looking to target success up to and including that RWC. If you do a Woodward and basically write off one RWC as part of development to the next then you need to look at different, younger, options - I don't see Ireland doing that though.

5 - Obviously as you Ulster and Irish fans are more than aware after the tragic loss of Nevin Spence, sometimes things just don't pan out as foreseen for all sorts of reasons.

Great post Dummy Half .

It's laughable actually that because we've had a rough and tumble time with a certain coaching team, led by a certain coach - that we're all so ready now to say Ireland are in a big fix player-wise, and that fewer and fewer of our players will be able to make the step up to International level in the near future.... so we should get buying in the real talent from abroad pronto! And hurry through our passport giving to the promising foreigners

Hoist the white flag y'all.

I don't think we're in a pickle at all...I just think Payne is a country mile better than anyone else on the horizon and if he decides that he wants to play for us then I am happy with that, the way I would have been with Nacewa.

Its just hypothetical at this stage. He has another season to run and he may well want to take has chances in NZ. He is in sensational form at the minute, beats defenders with ease and almost looks like he could score with every touch of the ball.

If he meets the criteria in another season and decides to stay long term then I would select him for sure.

Everything is hypothetical of course...but the truth is becoming less and less so. One man is about to become 'Irish' after being used frequently as a stick to beat down Leinster success in the past (one of the outsiders making us look better than we really are) and another one has just dropped off a plane and is already in Green. Is this the new way a bad coach will find reasons to stay in his job? Step over the players who can't see his 'vision' or won't play for him?

How many non-Irish Irish people will we sanction on an Irish team? Are we going to do the lucky number club five on it all to make ourselves feel like we're still giving most hope to home grown players, bless 'em?

That's fair enough fly but I'm expressing my own opinion and I don't have an issue with Strauss. He's served his time and is one of us as far as I'm concerned. Bent has an Irish grandparent.

Payne is a kiwi, that is why this is hypothetical but in another season his contract is up and he will have served his residency period.

As an Ulster fan I 100% hope he stays longer and if he does then as an Irish fan I would be very happy if he decided he wanted to represent us. If he doesn't then I'm delighted to have seen this guy play for Ulster and hope he will have enjoyed his time here.

Now I also, perhaps paradoxically and hypocritically, hope the IRFU drop this project loophole. I don't agree with purposely poaching other countries talent.

However if we do get overseas players here, who settle long term and become eligible then I am not against them being selected if they are good enough.

In terms of how many are acceptable, well its more a case that if our grass roots rugby and player development infrastructure is good enough then I would hope that in the majority of instances that our homegrown players would be better than players coming in who haven't made the grade elsewhere.

rodders wrote:That's fair enough fly but I'm expressing my own opinion and I don't have an issue with Strauss. He's served his time and is one of us as far as I'm concerned. Bent has an Irish grandparent.

Oh I'm not personally jabbing at you, rodders. Of course you have your legit opinions. I'm jabbing at the topic really...and using you as the victim

No, I know how emotionally connected we all get to our special 'foreign' players who are special simply because they are not actually 'us' but they play with the intensity and passion and conviction and committment that makes us all feel proud that they give more than their professionalism to our Provinces but also their personal passions.

I don't belittle Strauss personally when I say he's becoming 'Irish' after for so long taking the stab from others that it's his otherness that makes him special. Strauss is ours at Leinster and respect for him is a certainty from me. I loved Nathan Hines too. Pienaar and Johann Muller are the same. Howlett and Nacewa, they are honourary Irish men in my eyes - they've all put in the hard yards and are part of all our memories now of particularly Irish rugby. So we honour them and value them and it's not that I don't want them (if some of them weren't already connected to other nations).

I just think this urge to find solutions abroad must be brutally controlled or else it all explodes and in no time at all International will just be another version of a super world Club league.

It's fun, and often horrifically painful fun!!!, trying to see how Irish men fare against Scots, Welsh, French or New Zealanders. It's fun not always having the right players to battle them because it is so sweet when a period comes round when indeed you do have the right players. Looking for perfection by chasing after ready made foreign legion players could become addictive if the controls aren't sturdy. I guess that's what I'm saying...and choosing you to shout at when saying so

Fair enough fly, just ignore me...I have a persecution complex....

What out for Robbie Henshaw. He is playing 15 now but also plays 13 and looks fairly talented.

He does indeed. Look forward to seeing more of him. There's plenty of talented lads around. Dave Kearney is an exceptional talent too.

Point is that Payne is the finished article, in his prime and will be eligible to play for us in another year.

If we're going to play Strauss (and I agree with that) then there is no compelling moral reason not to play Payne, if he wants to play for us.

Therefore for me it comes down to rugby. Is there anyone as good or better. Not for me no. BOD, Kearney and Bowe are our only 3/4s who I'd put in the same class as Payne just now. For me its a no brainer and he would bring a lot to our squad.

Again its just hypothetical because he isn't qualified to play for us now.

Payne is quality. In a year or so when he's qualified I'd have no objection to him playing for Ireland, but I suspect he will be playing at fullback for Ulster so not sure he would be an medium term option at 13.

Short answer, no moral objection, but not necessarily at 13.

Its crazy how this guy has never played for NZ, yet would be a superstar with Ireland... makes you wonder what kind of standard are we really at.

Wasn't Payne named the best 13 of the S15 the season before he joined Ulster?

Not to mention the fact that Conrad Smith and Israel Dagg (probably the two best players in their respective positions) are his competition.

Payne may well have earned a deserved All Blacks call-up had he stayed in NZ, albeit the competition is intense. There aren't that many players of his quality outside NZ.

Payne had a reasonable chance for a call up but really only to be looked at how he might fit in the AB environment as a utility. I think Ellison and Kahui are better 13s than Payne and Ben Smith, Andre Taylor and Cory Jane are better 15s then Payne. Obviously C Smith and Dagg are better. Toeava was a much better 15 and utility than Payne as well.

Outside of NZ, Beale would be a better 15 and Ashley Cooper a better 13.

I think thats the thing nganboy, there is an abundance of top quality backs down in NZ. Payne will find it hard to get himself back in contention and I get the impression that when he signed for us he had all but given up on his AB chances.

There really aren't many outside backs of his calibre in the NH right now so ignoring any ethical considerations and controversy about the residency rule then he would be a very welcome addition to the Ireland backline heading into the next RWC.

If NZ want him then he should play for them if that's were his heart is but if he's not in the frame there and he feels a strong connection to Ireland come the end of his 3 years here then I'd be very happy to see him wear green.

Just a thought going on some of the comments above.

Did/do the All Blacks ever have a game against a select super 15 'sub-standard' New Zealand crew?

That'd be an interesting game, and might also be embarrassing for All Blacks Mark 1!

The idea that some players just don't have what it takes to be an All Black is a little too rushed as a theory in my book. Better to say a side can only have 15 players on the field - and choosing must be done to achieve that.

We have had trials in the past were the ABs possibles matched or beat the ABs probables. But that was awhile ago.

I think its very common to say a player is not ready / good enough for the next level. It's not saying something about the ABs being some mystical level that only certain people can attain. I don't think of it as some kind of theory either.

I feel we can safely say that Michael Bent who was dumped by the Hurricanes and hardly getting any game time over 2/3 years was not good enough for the ABs. Sure MAY BE if he were given the chance he could have stepped up but more than likely the players selected ahead of him were just better.

It certainly doesn't do much for our pride to think of the players who originated elsewhere, and yet would never have reached the same international standard in their country of origin as they would here.

Thinking of Court, Boss, Strauss, Bent.

But looking at club level, you see Rabo teams bringing in players who do pretty well, and yet would hardly see the bench in S15.

Thinking of Herring, Doyle, Diack, A D'arcy from an Ulster POV.

Maybe these players arnt THAT bad, its just that the tr-nations are so saturated with players, it can be hard to differentiate which ones to focus on and develop.

There are probably hundreds of non S15 new zealanders who play in NZ equivalent to the AIL, who could be stars with Rabo teams.

Yikes!

clivemcl wrote:It certainly doesn't do much for our pride to think of the players who originated elsewhere, and yet would never have reached the same international standard in their country of origin as they would here.

Thinking of Court, Boss, Strauss, Bent.

Boss played NZ underage level didn't he? ...was a regular with the Hurricanes too.

Wasted by Ireland.

rodders wrote:

clivemcl wrote:It certainly doesn't do much for our pride to think of the players who originated elsewhere, and yet would never have reached the same international standard in their country of origin as they would here.

Thinking of Court, Boss, Strauss, Bent.

Boss played NZ underage level didn't he? ...was a regular with the Hurricanes too.

Wasted by Ireland.

I thought NZ under age level was their 'A' team and would make him ineligible. Or do you mean even younger, like u-18s?

Surely Boss wouldnt start for any S15 team would he?

Played for NZ U-19, or at least was in the squad and played for the Hurricanes before joining Ulster.

Maybe wasn't a regular, and think he played 15 a few time but it shows he wasn't bad considering he was up against the likes of Justin Marshall.

In my opinion none of Stringer, O'Leary or Reddan would have got a game for a S15 team and its a scandal how Boss was treated by both Kidney and EOS. Just my opinion though.