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England Rankings Thread

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Post by LondonTiger Sat 24 Nov 2012, 4:52 pm

Alex Goode - Had a lot of work to do with SA kicking pretty much everything. In dire conditions was solid 6

Chris Ashton - Keeps trying to offer himself in attack, but mistiming his runs at the moment, once getting in the way of an overlap on the SA line. Good support to Manu's interception, spoiled by an iffy pass 4

Manu Tuilagi - had little to do other than provide guard at the breakdown. Looked dangerous when he had the ball and showed with pass to Ashton after his interception that he can pass when he trys to. 5

Brad Barritt - tried his heart out, but will not have convinced the sceptics, 5

Mike Brown - pace was not a problem, defence was good but butchered his support line following Manu break. 5

Toby Flood - missed one fairly easy penalty (and one harder). Tactical kicking was good, kept trying to challenge the gain line, but his style is made for SA who love crunching a FH 4

Ben Youngs - tactical kicking excellent, passing varied between the sublime and the ridiculous. SA were scared of the threat he offers when running and any time he hinted at it space was created for team-mates - but did not try often enough. 5

Ben Morgan - if only he did not lose the ball in contact so easily it would have been really good. 6

Chris Robshaw - not a day he will want to remember 4

Tom Wood - allowed Alberts to get in front of him in the lineout far too easily. Otherwise a decent show (excepting the knock on that gifted Alberts his try) 5

Launchbury - a really good first start 7

Parling - perhaps he may have an international future 7

Cole - decent performance at the coal face 6

Tom Youngs - tackled like a demon, carried the ball well, secured turnovers for his team BUT two crooked throws and a misfiring relationship with Wood in the lineout 5

Alex Corbisiero - May have got a little lucky at scrum time with Owen's interpretations. Did his best but lack of game time was obvious. Blowing a bit when replaced 5


reps:

Owen Farrell - as you would expect, nailed his place kicks. Still stands too deep and tactical kicking was shocking. Neithe rbetter nor worse than Flood 4

Danny Care - As Youngs had struggled to clear rthe ball quickly. Always looks busy, but not his conditions. 5

Mako Vunipola - Largely anonymous 4

David Paice - little time to shine 5

David Wilson - no time to make an impact

Mouritz Botha - oh dear ignored Morgan's screams to try and catch that last kick off 4

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Post by yappysnap Sun 25 Nov 2012, 9:12 am

1. Alex Corbisiero- 6 - Outsmarted JDP in the scrum which won two pens and seemed keen in the loose, didn't make much of an impact in defence but all in all a good day for the returnee prop.
2. Tom Youngs- 5 - With his enthusiasm at the tackle and ball in hand we forget that this is his third cap for his country, he did finally had the shocker at the lineout that we knew he could but so have many other players against the Boks. He'll be a brilliant back up to Hartley.
3. Dan Cole- 6 - Helped to slowly gain accendancy over the Bok pack, but was surprisingly quiet on the deck and around the pitch.
4. Joe Launchberry- 7 - Took to his first Int start like a fish to water, he was all over the pitch putting in hits and catching loose balls, won at least one key turn over as well. Needs to wear a scrum cap so I stop mixing him up with Robshaw.
5. Geoff Parling- 6 - Dynamic in the loose and always there to help double tackle in defence. Could have gone a bit easier on Youngs at the lineout though.
6. Tom Wood- 5 - Still not up to match fitness but a decent showing from Wood, helped keep the SA backrow honest at the breakdown but didn't make any of the powerful runs or big tackles that we'd like to see.
7. Chris Robshaw- 5 - As a flanker he had a good game, stole at least two turnovers and was every where in defence. As a captain he'll be going grey with that last minute decision.
8. Matthew Morgan- 5 - Helped to control and counter the Bok backrow and did very well at the base of the scrum, he grafted hard all day but we didn't see any of that dynamism from him that we'd have liked.
9. Ben Youngs- 6 - A very mixed performance from Youngs, sloppy passes and knock ons were inter linked with some beautiful flat passes to runners and a very good kicking game, he's definitely finding his form.
10. Toby Flood- 5 - Looked like he didn't want to be there for most of the first half, had the Boks in his face and it seemed to unsettle him. He still doesn't make the right decisions at the right time but is the best 10 we have.
11. Mike Brown- 6 - A surprisingly good showing by the FB on the wing, kicked well and tackled well, he also beat plenty of defenders when counter attacking. Just needs to work on his positioning in defence.
12. Brad Barritt- 4 - The man can tackle, tell him to tackle a moving train and i'm sure he could and would do it. He just can not kick, draw and pass or exploit gaps in defences, which is kind of essential at Int level.
13. Manu Tuilagi- 5 - Used sparingly and to greater effect he made some big tackles and a key intercept that saved a dangerous situation, he also passed better then his colleague at 12. I can't help think though he'd do better on the wing until we got the rest of the team sorted.
14. Chris Ashton- 4 - A very busy game from wing, unfortunately the new way of using him as a crash ball option in to congested midfields rather then a support runner in broken play would probably suit Manu/Banahan more. When Brown made his first break he was no where to be seen, then threw a horrible pass after Manu's break.
15. Alex Goode- 5 - I don't know why but after the Fiji match Goode has stopped entering the line as a second receiver and just sits back to clear up kicks. Had a solid game but we saw nothing of his attacking threat.

16. M Vunipola- 4 - Some poor handling and weaker in the scrum then Corbs.
17. Paice- 6 - Less enthusiastic ball in hand but far better at the lineout.
18. Wilson- 5 - Solid in the scrums but annonymous around the pitch.
19. Botha- 4 - Brings little energy to the pack and decided to catch the last kick of the game which was going out on the full.
20. Haskell- 5 - Looked full of energy and willing to tackle, but didn't get much time to show anything else.
21. Care- 6 - Carried on where Youngs left off mixing the good with the bad, kept the tempo of the game up and passed well.
22. Farrell- 4 - Showed why he shouldn't have been on that bench, having him play nearly 40 mins killed almost any chance of a try coming, isn't Int class and shouldn't be in the white again.
23. Joseph- unrated - Didn't get off the bench. The game was calling out for a bit of individual brilliance and SL bottled it by leaving the one sub that can do that.

]

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Post by yappysnap Sun 25 Nov 2012, 9:35 am

Blimey! Worryingly similar LT. Everyone else may as well not bother we have it sussed Whistle

Do you think Joseph should have come on for the last 10 and Manu move to the wing? Then perhaps Brown moves to 15 and Goode goes to 12 for Barritt.

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Post by Ozzy3213 Sun 25 Nov 2012, 9:38 am

I've seen two sets of ratings in papers (online) today and wonder if the people giving them watched the same game as each other.

One had Corbisiero as an 8 and the other a 3. Even given individual interpretation I'm not sure how people can be so far apart.

For what it's worth I thought he was a 6 or 7, depending on how strict/lenient a marker you are.
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Post by yappysnap Sun 25 Nov 2012, 9:39 am

Thought he did well Ozzy, to me he just looks a bit comfier then Marler does at the moment.

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Post by Ozzy3213 Sun 25 Nov 2012, 9:46 am

You can see he has a couple of years start in terms of top level scrummaging experience yappy. He, at times scrummed illegally against JdP, but he'd worked out what Nigel was going to let him get away with, and went with it. That's just experience and is similar to what Ben Alexander did to Marler last week.

Loosehead is a real position of strength for us, we have very good depth there. It's just a shame that the cupboard is a bit barer in some other positions.

Here are my overall thoughts anyway...

Positives

Corbisiero's return - was blowing due to lack of gametime, but showed he is our best scrummaging loosehead by a distance.
Cole - never has a poor game really.
Launchbury/Parling - both played well and look as if they might work as a combination if we can get the back row balance right.
Better at the breakdown (4 and 5 were a big part of that improvement)


Negatives

Half backs - Poor decision making in this key area and also poor skills cost England dear.
Captain - Again, really poor decisions cost England.
Tom Youngs - showed why he is not yet and international class hooker. Threw a bad one early and went to pieces.
Lack of any real backline moves, we are relying too much on individuals to create something.
Poor basics (far too many knock ons)
Balance of backline not right, no creativity whatsoever.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 25 Nov 2012, 9:51 am

1. Corbs - 5 - didn't look match fit but got on top of du Plessis in the scrum.
2. Youngs - 6 - took the fight to SA his work in the loose and attacking the breakdown were excellent, two crooked throws were poor and will hopefully come good soon.
3. Cole - 6 - solid and did his job.
4. Launchbury - 7 - cracking performance, he did what was required in attack and defence. His carrying was a big help to the side. Would like to see him get a little more aggressive.
5. Parling - 6 - great around the field but out smarted at the lineout were the Boks got jumpers up in front time after time.
6. Wood - 6 - industrious but faded.
7. Robshaw - 3 - gave a stupid penalty away early doors, got brushed out the way at the breakdown and wasn't himself in the tackle department. I think the captaincy has effected his game.
8. Morgan - 6 - great in attack but needs to work on jos breakdown skills.
9. Youngs - 6 - best 9 on the park but has got to practice passing in wet conditions.
10. Flood - 5 - knock to the head early doors knocked him for 6.
11. Brown - 5 - put everything out there but isn't a winger.
12. Barritt - 6 - a rock in defence, carried well in attack, his best England performance.
13. Manu - 6 - is a great weapon but a weapon is only as good as those that wield it. Looked in good form but was living off scraps. He must stop getting involved in so many rucks.
14. Ashton - 4 - tried hard but nothing came off, should have backed himself on the Manu break.
15. Goode - 7 - Mr reliable at the back, looks every inch a classy international 15.

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Post by yappysnap Sun 25 Nov 2012, 10:00 am

Really Robshaw gets a 3?

Agree Ozzy it was good to see him being the smart one at the scrum there, hopefully Marler will learn from that and come back better for it.

Yea the locks were really good, showed a lot of what we've been missing for the last year. If we had one of Lawes/Attwood on the bench as well it'd be even better.

I was pretty nervous about Mike Catt as Englands back coach when he was grabbed and at the moment he's not proving me wrong. I know he played well for you guys Ozzy but was he a decent coach? I seem to remember results being pretty good with him in there.

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Post by Ozzy3213 Sun 25 Nov 2012, 10:07 am

He is a London Irish legend as a player yappy, but I was never kken on him as attack coach. We played some pretty turgid stuff when he was in that role. From what I could glean, his 1 to 1 coaching with players was good, in terms of improving their basic skills, but his attacking plan was seriously lacking, and I think that is showing with England.
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Post by yappysnap Sun 25 Nov 2012, 10:10 am

That's pretty much what I thought. Trouble is it's not like there are any other coaches out there to be picked to help out. The cupboard is pretty bare unless we could pinch someone from SuperRugby with a big cash incentive.

If the coaches were to change i'd like it sooner rather then later.

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Post by thomh Sun 25 Nov 2012, 10:13 am

I thought Youngs' kicking was pretty sketchy all day, and we were lucky that South Africa didn't counter-attack like Australia did.

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Post by yappysnap Sun 25 Nov 2012, 10:26 am

Perhaps true, I struggle to remember a good kicking display from any team, most teams just seem to hit and hope now. Certainly Goode and Flood were worse then Youngs though.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sun 25 Nov 2012, 10:36 am

Think everyones being massively harsh on the pack here. Fact is they held their own against SA in every department excepty the lineout, when was the last time we saw that from any England side/
Indeed late on they had the upper hand in the tight.

Flood wasnt as bad as people make out, certainly more effective than farrell ( who did goal kick well though) . The knock seemed to have affected him from early as suggested, its a big worry just how fragile he seems to be. For the 6 nations Burns has to be tried out unless Farrell is really showing a massive improvement at club level.

Goode and Brown are both effective with the ball but their positioning was terrible throughout the game. May be down to a lack of time together but that does need to be sorted out. I certainly dont see any reason why Foden shouldnt be straight back in the 15.

Robshaw, good enough as a player not as a Captain.

Rating is harsh on Tuilagi, the team as a whole failed to get him enough ball. Only 5 possessions, one of which was the interception. Thats a serious problem. Ashton too continues to be starved of ball he can work with.


Englands biggest issue continues to be a lack of plan and organisation whan they have the ball. They only ever look dangerous when play breaks down due to mistakes from the opposition, they are offering nothing themselves. That kind of old scholl battle you can get away with it, against NZ they wont.

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Post by thomh Sun 25 Nov 2012, 10:42 am

Both second rows I thought were excellent. If those are 6/7 rated performances then I'm looking forward to seeing an 8 or 9.

Goode was solid all-round, but I do think he looks a bit short of pace at this level. Foden is an excellent distributor as well, so it will be interesting to see where they go with the three full backs next year.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sun 25 Nov 2012, 10:46 am

Knowing Lancaster he'll play them all on the wing

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Post by fa0019 Sun 25 Nov 2012, 10:47 am

well the only issue with saying England did ok up front is that that was not a strong SA pack, esp. in the front 5.

Arguablly SA were missing their first choice front row in Beast, Bismarck and Coenie and Bekker in at Lock. That would make the scrum, breakdown and lineouts even tougher.

England are missing Hartley but otherwise a first choice team.

How will they fair when that team comes to town .. as in Beast, Bismarck, Coenie, Etzebeth, Bekker, Alberts, Burger & Spies???

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Post by Biltong Sun 25 Nov 2012, 10:54 am

Sorry boys but as much flack as Beast gets for scrumming illegally, Corbisiero was worse, the fact that Jannie played somthing like his 34 th game of the season and the fact that Nigel Owens took it upon himself to grant Corbisiero free range in the scrum has only lowered my rating of him.
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Post by thomh Sun 25 Nov 2012, 11:00 am

I thought the SA tighthead was binding on Corbs' arm a fair bit as well. The scrum was just a mess generally on that side.

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Post by beshocked Sun 25 Nov 2012, 11:04 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Think everyones being massively harsh on the pack here. Fact is they held their own against SA in every department excepty the lineout, when was the last time we saw that from any England side/
Indeed late on they had the upper hand in the tight.

Flood wasnt as bad as people make out, certainly more effective than farrell ( who did goal kick well though) . The knock seemed to have affected him from early as suggested, its a big worry just how fragile he seems to be. For the 6 nations Burns has to be tried out unless Farrell is really showing a massive improvement at club level.

Goode and Brown are both effective with the ball but their positioning was terrible throughout the game. May be down to a lack of time together but that does need to be sorted out. I certainly dont see any reason why Foden shouldnt be straight back in the 15.

Robshaw, good enough as a player not as a Captain.

Rating is harsh on Tuilagi, the team as a whole failed to get him enough ball. Only 5 possessions, one of which was the interception. Thats a serious problem. Ashton too continues to be starved of ball he can work with.


Englands biggest issue continues to be a lack of plan and organisation whan they have the ball. They only ever look dangerous when play breaks down due to mistakes from the opposition, they are offering nothing themselves. That kind of old scholl battle you can get away with it, against NZ they wont.

How could you say Flood was more effective than Farrell? He missed 2 kicks -1 quite straightforward.He foolishly tried to run from his own 22 and got clattered - putting the side under pressure.He also offered little to no creativity. Take off the blinkers for once please.

I doubt Burns would have fared better than either player. At least Farrell didn't miss his shots at goal.

Again Farrell gets criticised- what do you expect him to do? Especially in those shoddy conditions.

I think the whole england side is getting too much criticism - remember the conditions were very poor. Hardly the conditions for a try scoring bonanza. We could have and should have won the game. Poor decision making again lets us down.

The biggest con was the absolutely shocking line out.

I think the lack of decent attack was down to too many factors to pin on one or two players.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 25 Nov 2012, 11:10 am

I thought Youngs' kicking was pretty sketchy all day,

There was no stand out kicks but his box kicks either had enough height to be chased and pressured or were skidding along the ground and forced a knock on in the SA 22. The problem he has had previously is that they were too long for a chase and nice and high so the opposition 15 could collect easily (Care did similar last weekend). Not so yesterday.

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Post by thomh Sun 25 Nov 2012, 11:13 am

Maybe I'm misremembering then, but I thought there were loads of box kicks that went straight to the SA back three in plenty of space.

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Post by DaveM Sun 25 Nov 2012, 11:25 am

I thought the pack did well, apart from Youngs' throwing. Given they were missing Hartley and Lawes, that Corbs clearly isn't match fit and that that was the 1st time that backrow has ever played together I think it bodes well.

The problem as always is the 10, 12, 13 combo just don't look like they'll ever be creative. However, with Flood injured there is a chance to throw Burns in at the deep end next week. They also have to change at least one centre and either bring in JJ or, if the rules allow it, Twelvetrees.

I'm sure the Robshaw decision has been debated elsewhere, but given the conditions and the way the line-out had gone I don't think there was any chance we'd have scored if we'd gone for the corner. The main problem is he tried to change his mind. If Botha had left the restart then we could have won as SA were visibly rocking. There were a couple of other scenarios which would have seen England win (Flood's simple misses and SA not fluking a try), so I'd say it actually was good progress compared to Australia. Have to sort the back play out though.

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Post by Hood83 Sun 25 Nov 2012, 11:31 am

beshocked wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Think everyones being massively harsh on the pack here. Fact is they held their own against SA in every department excepty the lineout, when was the last time we saw that from any England side/
Indeed late on they had the upper hand in the tight.

Flood wasnt as bad as people make out, certainly more effective than farrell ( who did goal kick well though) . The knock seemed to have affected him from early as suggested, its a big worry just how fragile he seems to be. For the 6 nations Burns has to be tried out unless Farrell is really showing a massive improvement at club level.

Goode and Brown are both effective with the ball but their positioning was terrible throughout the game. May be down to a lack of time together but that does need to be sorted out. I certainly dont see any reason why Foden shouldnt be straight back in the 15.

Robshaw, good enough as a player not as a Captain.

Rating is harsh on Tuilagi, the team as a whole failed to get him enough ball. Only 5 possessions, one of which was the interception. Thats a serious problem. Ashton too continues to be starved of ball he can work with.


Englands biggest issue continues to be a lack of plan and organisation whan they have the ball. They only ever look dangerous when play breaks down due to mistakes from the opposition, they are offering nothing themselves. That kind of old scholl battle you can get away with it, against NZ they wont.

How could you say Flood was more effective than Farrell? He missed 2 kicks -1 quite straightforward.He foolishly tried to run from his own 22 and got clattered - putting the side under pressure.He also offered little to no creativity. Take off the blinkers for once please.

I doubt Burns would have fared better than either player. At least Farrell didn't miss his shots at goal.

Again Farrell gets criticised- what do you expect him to do? Especially in those shoddy conditions.

I think the whole england side is getting too much criticism - remember the conditions were very poor. Hardly the conditions for a try scoring bonanza. We could have and should have won the game. Poor decision making again lets us down.

The biggest con was the absolutely shocking line out.

I think the lack of decent attack was down to too many factors to pin on one or two players.

You're right, the biggest issue isn't Farrell, it's Barritt. No kicking game means no variety and no threat. Opposition just blitzes us and kills the space. He's a very fine Prem player, and not up to it at this level.

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Post by beshocked Sun 25 Nov 2012, 11:34 am

Yet again like last week there was no simple attacking structure. No diagonal structure in attack. Just aimless england players raggedly dotted around. Consequently no space or momentum to work with. Who is to blame for that?

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Post by Hood83 Sun 25 Nov 2012, 11:35 am

beshocked wrote:Yet again like last week there was no simple attacking structure. No diagonal structure in attack. Just aimless england players raggedly dotted around. Consequently no space or momentum to work with. Who is to blame for that?

Can't disagree with that. But as others have said, i can't see anything that suggest we have a backs/attack coach.

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Post by beshocked Sun 25 Nov 2012, 11:37 am

Hood83 wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Think everyones being massively harsh on the pack here. Fact is they held their own against SA in every department excepty the lineout, when was the last time we saw that from any England side/
Indeed late on they had the upper hand in the tight.

Flood wasnt as bad as people make out, certainly more effective than farrell ( who did goal kick well though) . The knock seemed to have affected him from early as suggested, its a big worry just how fragile he seems to be. For the 6 nations Burns has to be tried out unless Farrell is really showing a massive improvement at club level.

Goode and Brown are both effective with the ball but their positioning was terrible throughout the game. May be down to a lack of time together but that does need to be sorted out. I certainly dont see any reason why Foden shouldnt be straight back in the 15.

Robshaw, good enough as a player not as a Captain.

Rating is harsh on Tuilagi, the team as a whole failed to get him enough ball. Only 5 possessions, one of which was the interception. Thats a serious problem. Ashton too continues to be starved of ball he can work with.


Englands biggest issue continues to be a lack of plan and organisation whan they have the ball. They only ever look dangerous when play breaks down due to mistakes from the opposition, they are offering nothing themselves. That kind of old scholl battle you can get away with it, against NZ they wont.

How could you say Flood was more effective than Farrell? He missed 2 kicks -1 quite straightforward.He foolishly tried to run from his own 22 and got clattered - putting the side under pressure.He also offered little to no creativity. Take off the blinkers for once please.

I doubt Burns would have fared better than either player. At least Farrell didn't miss his shots at goal.

Again Farrell gets criticised- what do you expect him to do? Especially in those shoddy conditions.

I think the whole england side is getting too much criticism - remember the conditions were very poor. Hardly the conditions for a try scoring bonanza. We could have and should have won the game. Poor decision making again lets us down.

The biggest con was the absolutely shocking line out.

I think the lack of decent attack was down to too many factors to pin on one or two players.

You're right, the biggest issue isn't Farrell, it's Barritt. No kicking game means no variety and no threat. Opposition just blitzes us and kills the space. He's a very fine Prem player, and not up to it at this level.

Of course you are right. It is one players' fault that the whole england attack faltered. You have your scapegoat. Bravo.

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Post by LondonTiger Sun 25 Nov 2012, 11:44 am

Beshocked the comments on Barritt are unfair - but with the bilge you dished out last week I guess it is deemed as payback.

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Post by yappysnap Sun 25 Nov 2012, 12:01 pm

beshocked wrote:Yet again like last week there was no simple attacking structure. No diagonal structure in attack. Just aimless england players raggedly dotted around. Consequently no space or momentum to work with. Who is to blame for that?

Maybe this isn't helped by the fact that at club level Manu had Allan creating for him and Barritt has Tomkins or Hodgson. Neither of them have to create anything for their clubs themselves.

And we don't actually have a backs or attack coach, just a bloke who sits in his seat.

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Post by Hood83 Sun 25 Nov 2012, 12:05 pm

beshocked wrote:
Hood83 wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Think everyones being massively harsh on the pack here. Fact is they held their own against SA in every department excepty the lineout, when was the last time we saw that from any England side/
Indeed late on they had the upper hand in the tight.

Flood wasnt as bad as people make out, certainly more effective than farrell ( who did goal kick well though) . The knock seemed to have affected him from early as suggested, its a big worry just how fragile he seems to be. For the 6 nations Burns has to be tried out unless Farrell is really showing a massive improvement at club level.

Goode and Brown are both effective with the ball but their positioning was terrible throughout the game. May be down to a lack of time together but that does need to be sorted out. I certainly dont see any reason why Foden shouldnt be straight back in the 15.

Robshaw, good enough as a player not as a Captain.

Rating is harsh on Tuilagi, the team as a whole failed to get him enough ball. Only 5 possessions, one of which was the interception. Thats a serious problem. Ashton too continues to be starved of ball he can work with.


Englands biggest issue continues to be a lack of plan and organisation whan they have the ball. They only ever look dangerous when play breaks down due to mistakes from the opposition, they are offering nothing themselves. That kind of old scholl battle you can get away with it, against NZ they wont.

How could you say Flood was more effective than Farrell? He missed 2 kicks -1 quite straightforward.He foolishly tried to run from his own 22 and got clattered - putting the side under pressure.He also offered little to no creativity. Take off the blinkers for once please.

I doubt Burns would have fared better than either player. At least Farrell didn't miss his shots at goal.

Again Farrell gets criticised- what do you expect him to do? Especially in those shoddy conditions.

I think the whole england side is getting too much criticism - remember the conditions were very poor. Hardly the conditions for a try scoring bonanza. We could have and should have won the game. Poor decision making again lets us down.

The biggest con was the absolutely shocking line out.

I think the lack of decent attack was down to too many factors to pin on one or two players.

You're right, the biggest issue isn't Farrell, it's Barritt. No kicking game means no variety and no threat. Opposition just blitzes us and kills the space. He's a very fine Prem player, and not up to it at this level.

Of course you are right. It is one players' fault that the whole england attack faltered. You have your scapegoat. Bravo.

I said the biggest issue, not the only issue. I meant re the backline as well rather than the whole team, which is my fault for not being clear. That said, i can perfectly see why people also see it as an issue of speed of ball at the breakdown or a lack of decent coaching.

I think Barritt is desperately average and shouldn't be in the team, ditto Farrell. But I can see with Barritt there's an argument re experience. They perhaps do get too much stick but it's because people keep telling us that Farrell can pass and Barritt can offload/kick...i've seen absolutely no evidence of this.

Not trying to find a scapegoat, as nice as that might be, I just think that a particular player is pants and it is a major issue. If you think this is a Sarries bash, i also happen to think Goode is the only backline player we had out who looks like he has a decent footballing brain on him.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 25 Nov 2012, 12:44 pm

beshocked wrote:...........I think the whole england side is getting too much criticism - remember the conditions were very poor. Hardly the conditions for a try scoring bonanza. We could have and should have won the game. Poor decision making again lets us down..........
Beshocked,
I think England gets criticised because we lost to the Springboks in June (at the end of our long season, travelling with a number of injuries). Now, once again, we lose to the Springboks (after their long season, travelling with a number of injuries).

Most of my concern about England is easily the mental side. Not just the bad decisions about kicking for touch/goal at critical times. This also includes kicks with no real purpose or direction, crabbing across the pitch, and a lack of creativity in attack. The defense was fine. This is what drives me bananas.

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Post by Barney McGrew did it Sun 25 Nov 2012, 12:54 pm

A few technicalities:
T Youngs can only be marked out of 5 since he didn’t do the only real job he had. He’s also not big enough to pretend to carry well. So 3.
Parling has to have a brownie point added because few people thought he could play that well – and he did. 8
Flood has to lose a point for being dumb. He knows he doesn’t like being beaten up, but when he failed to clear the 22 with an obvious kick to touch early on, he gave the Boks the perfect opportunity to hurt him. He also missed a sitter. 4.
Robshaw’s decision making aside, he gave away an easy 3-pointer at the scrum right in front of our posts. 3.
The coaching team should be rated. But if they can’t be bothered nor can I.

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Post by beshocked Sun 25 Nov 2012, 1:04 pm

Londontiger bilge? Stop with the double standards will you? You and your ilk come up with plenty enough bilge thank you very much! Easy to point the finger - I could do so too.

Hood you say Barritt and Farrell are desperately average. What about the 13 other players? Why single out these two in particular? Going by the ratings no one really covered themselves in glory.

Also was flood in your opinion great? Would england in your opinion have won the game if he was still on the pitch? Would billy really made a difference at 12? We can speculate but I doubt either could have done enough. Is Burns the saviour?

I could criticise the players who allowed SA to score the try, those who were shocking in the line out, those who missed crucial kicks that could have won the game or blame the captain for not kicking for the corner but its a team game.

True doctor grey. There does seem to be an element of structure/calm decision making missing. Is this Lancaster or the players?

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Post by LondonTiger Sun 25 Nov 2012, 1:05 pm

thomh wrote:Maybe I'm misremembering then, but I thought there were loads of box kicks that went straight to the SA back three in plenty of space.

From memory Youngs box kicks usually caused problems. Flood and Farrell (more in his temorary stint but worst from the free kick "bomb") tended to kick far too long.

stuart Barnes seemed to blame Youngs for all of them - even a Care kick Very Happy

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Post by LondonTiger Sun 25 Nov 2012, 1:08 pm

Beshocked,

I wrote a piece last weekend, critical of the Tigers players and Manu especially. You chose to jump on a single comment where I said Manu can pass but isn't - which if anything is also critical. You then went off on one accusing me of always defending tigers and that England would be stronger if they were all dropped.

Look at my marks above, look at what I write before you have a go.

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Post by Geordie Sun 25 Nov 2012, 1:15 pm

Pro's

Brown was excellent out of position...and id start him v the AB's at full back.
Parling showed me he can play at this level.
T.Youngs was excellent...his carrying, his tackling...his rucking...
Morgan showed signs of really giving us some drive...and power..
Launchbury looks made for this level...

Cons

Youngs throwing is an issue.
Lack of creativity in the backs...its the biggest problem in the squad. Why on earth did Ashton pass...and not pin his ears back!!!! AArrgghhh...

In all fairness...we should have won this dire game....

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Post by beshocked Sun 25 Nov 2012, 1:26 pm

Londontiger I apologise if I have annoyed you. Look the way I see it most tigers fans on here including you are reasonable but you have some <personal attack removed> . I normally jump in as a defence mechanism. I feel the need to defend my team's players because I feel they are unfairly singled out as the ones at fault.

My ratings
Goode-6
Ashton 4
Tuilagi 5
Barritt 5
Brown -6
Flood 4
Youngs 5

Corbisiero 6
Youngs 4
Cole 7
Launchbury 7
Parling 6
Wood 6
Robshaw 5
Morgan 6


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Post by Hood83 Sun 25 Nov 2012, 1:37 pm

beshocked wrote:Londontiger bilge? Stop with the double standards will you? You and your ilk come up with plenty enough bilge thank you very much! Easy to point the finger - I could do so too.

Hood you say Barritt and Farrell are desperately average. What about the 13 other players? Why single out these two in particular? Going by the ratings no one really covered themselves in glory.

Also was flood in your opinion great? Would england in your opinion have won the game if he was still on the pitch? Would billy really made a difference at 12? We can speculate but I doubt either could have done enough. Is Burns the saviour?

I could criticise the players who allowed SA to score the try, those who were shocking in the line out, those who missed crucial kicks that could have won the game or blame the captain for not kicking for the corner but its a team game.

True doctor grey. There does seem to be an element of structure/calm decision making missing. Is this Lancaster or the players?

I'm not singling them out for this game (fair enough it's a thread on England rankings) but for their overall contributions. Which amount to FA in my opinion. Would Twelvetrees make a difference at 12? Possibly not, plenty of weaknesses in his game. I just can see no reason not to find out. Of the other players on the pitch, most have demonstrated at some way at some point that they can play at this level. I don't see that with Farrell or Barritt. They were not the single reason we lost on Sat, obviously the lineout sticks out as a big reason. But I think Barritt is a major problem for us in attack.

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Post by HQ matt Sun 25 Nov 2012, 3:36 pm

i like barritt, obviously he isnt the most creative IC but his defense is immense and defence is the first form of attack. 12trees is, I feel, the future in this position but im quite happy with barritt in there and as a squad member going forward.

farrell on the other hand.. he just doesnt offer any kind of running threat, in a game where the packs were evenly matched we needed something from 10 and all farrell offered were high kicks (which were too deep).


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Post by DaveM Sun 25 Nov 2012, 4:40 pm

If defense is the 1st form of attack, why is England's attack so rubbish? England need a play-maker at 12 who can bring other players into the game. Against the top sides I don't think England have the luxury of having Goode constantly in the line from 15. It now really has to be Twelvetrees, a player with excellent defence (and the player with the most turnovers in the AP), who also has a running, kicking and passing game.

As an EQed IC Twelvetrees is so far ahead of the other contenders it is getting ridiculous. I'm sure he'll be starting by the 6 Nations, but why wait now? If you want to stick with an OC who passes once every other game then you need someone more multi-dimensional than Barritt at 12.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 26 Nov 2012, 7:12 pm

From memory Youngs box kicks usually caused problems. Flood and Farrell (more in his temorary stint but worst from the free kick "bomb") tended to kick far too long.

+1 Benny looked like he'd been practising the awkward bouncing little dink all week. The 10s kicked long and aimless.

Beschocked I think your ratings for the centres are harsh. Manu was our main attacking threat and created our best chance to score. Barritt locked down the midfield defence and got us over the gainline time after time in heavy traffic.

Also for those deriding Tom Youngs throwing, he only miss threw two lineouts. The others that were stolen were down to the Boks interpreting the calls and getting up in front of our jumpers. That is not the hookers fault.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 26 Nov 2012, 7:38 pm

Flood wasn't great, maybe a 5 but Farrell makes him look majestic. Farrell should be nowhere near an Int set up.

Corbs - 7 - was quiet around the park but showed up well where it counts, class act
Youngs - 6 - Great in loose, really shows how average Hartley is (although not his arrows)
Cole - 6 - solid display
Launchbury - 8 - Great debut
Parling - 8.5 - best forward, really finding his feet
Wood - 5 - least effective forward
Robshaw - 6 - good game but loses mark for decisions, looks stressed and effecting his game
Morgan - 7 - Grew into game, needs to carry in tight more

Youngs - 7 - fizzed around and was a threat
Flood - 5 - poor calls, tactical kicking good and passing but not his usual self
Brown - 6 - good running and defended well which Sharples didn't
Barritt - 5 - big fan but he's not Int quality apart from defence
Tuilagi - 6 - quiet game, one decent break
Ashton - 6 - looked a threat when he got hands on, no fun playing outside Barritt/Manu
Goode - 7 - always looking for space, was solid and attacked well

Mako - 6
Haskell - 6
Care - 5
Farrell - 3

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 26 Nov 2012, 7:54 pm

Tell you what let's go back to Hodgson and Farrell then we can go back to pitching about them kicking too much as we do currently with youngs. At some point we may have to admit that S.A. base their game around being big solid and well organised in defence.

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Post by yappysnap Mon 26 Nov 2012, 9:58 pm

I think for the 6N's EPS we must see Burns, Twelvetrees, Wade and Biggs come in to the backs.

I'd like to see someone come in for Waldrom and Botha in the pack as well, but the contencers there are less clear cut.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 26 Nov 2012, 10:03 pm

Biggs shouldn't be near an England shirt, utter mediocrity

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Post by DaveM Mon 26 Nov 2012, 10:34 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Beschocked I think your ratings for the centres are harsh. Manu was our main attacking threat and created our best chance to score. Barritt locked down the midfield defence and got us over the gainline time after time in heavy traffic.

I'm not sure if you can call an interception particularly creative, but my main issue here is your assessment of Barritt. I can remember him getting over the gainline once, other than that for a 12 playing in a team well up on possession and territory he was incredibly anonymous. The world is full of 12's who can do a decent defensive job (Twelvetrees is one), what we need is a 12 who can actually worry the opposition when in possession.

England's centre partnership is two lumps. England have no creativity. I think there is a pretty obvious link.

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Post by yappysnap Tue 27 Nov 2012, 10:01 am

I'd also say that our main attacking threat in the backs was either Brown or no one.

Any one think that we may see a 10. Burns 12. Farrel combo against the Kiwis?

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Post by Barney McGrew did it Tue 27 Nov 2012, 10:15 am

Trouble is with a defensive/bosh midfield, to score against the best defences we need pace in the back 3. Currently, because Foden’s out, we’ve gone for a more defensive/damage-limitation selection there. And that’s exactly the approach SL will take against the ABs (as we always do). The only real competition in the game will be between the packs. Can we try a 13-man rolling maul?
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Post by Geordie Tue 27 Nov 2012, 10:18 am

yappysnap wrote:I think for the 6N's EPS we must see Burns, Twelvetrees, Wade and Biggs come in to the backs.

I'd like to see someone come in for Waldrom and Botha in the pack as well, but the contencers there are less clear cut.

Add Dowson to that list too Yappy...

Fearns is one who must come in...others well...i guess on how they've been performing and potential.

I think we've realised this AI's that getting the EPS selection spot on is absolutely crucial.

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Post by Jimpy Tue 27 Nov 2012, 10:33 am

beshocked wrote:Londontiger I apologise if I have annoyed you. Look the way I see it most tigers fans on here including you are reasonable but you have some <personal attack removed> like Portnoy and Jimpy. I worry psw is joining their group. I normally jump in as a defence mechanism. I feel the need to defend my team's players because I feel they are unfairly singled out as the ones at fault.

My ratings
Goode-6
Ashton 4
Tuilagi 5
Barritt 5
Brown -6
Flood 4
Youngs 5

Corbisiero 6
Youngs 4
Cole 7
Launchbury 7
Parling 6
Wood 6
Robshaw 5
Morgan 6


Don't you dare tar me with that brush, especially since when it comes to delusion, you've re-defined the word, along with 'irony' and the phrase 'pot calling the kettle black'.

singled out as the ones at fault

Thats because apart from Goode, they pretty much have been...

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