Which doubles pair would win?

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If Federer and Murray teamed up against Nadal and Djokovic, who do you think would come out on top?

Federer and Murray are my favourites out of those 4 but I'm not sure how certain it is they would win. Although I think Fed and Murray have the best net skills, I'm don't think that Djokovic and Nadal are miles off and you'd imagine they'd work together better.

Nadal has to one of the most under rated volleyers out there. I would consider him every bit as good as Federer at the net and superior to Murray and Djokovic.

I think Novak has improved a great deal, this is clear from the stats this year where he has gone to the net so much more and has a high conversion rate. I think it would be a close match and hard to call. None of them are particularly good doubles players. Have Fed or Nadal won in doubles on tour?? I know Novak won Queens doubles title. I am guessing Murray must have come close in his career with his brother??

slashermcguirk wrote:Nadal has to one of the most under rated volleyers out there. I would consider him every bit as good as Federer at the net and superior to Murray and Djokovic.

I think Novak has improved a great deal, this is clear from the stats this year where he has gone to the net so much more and has a high conversion rate. I think it would be a close match and hard to call. None of them are particularly good doubles players. Have Fed or Nadal won in doubles on tour?? I know Novak won Queens doubles title. I am guessing Murray must have come close in his career with his brother??

Nadal is excellent at the net. Of course he is better than Djokovic and Murray.

Nadal has 8 doubles titles including 3 Masters titles

Federer has 8 doubles titles including a gold medal and a masters title

Murray has 2 doubles titles

Djokovic has 1 doubles title

lydian also posted each players win/loss ratio in doubles earlier in this thread. I'll repeat it here

Nadal is 98-59 (62.4%)
Federer is 120-80 (60.0%)
Djokovic is 31-45 (40.8%)
Murray is 46-55 (45.5%)

Incidentally, does anyone know why Nadal and Djokovic paired up that one time? It's certainly interesting given their rivalry over the last two years in particular. I can't imagine seeing any of the top four playing doubles with each other right now, but you never know...perhaps in a few years we'll see Federer giving it a go when he's realistically out of the running competitively in singles. I seem to remember he and Nadal doing so at one of the charity hits (Haiti?), for a laugh, but to see it in a competitive environment would be something else.

Seeing that stat (lydian's) on Novak's net approaches at the USO this year surprised me, he seemed to come in a lot more than usual. socal pointed out that this happened at the WTF in one or two matches recently too, which is interesting...

It Must Be Love wrote:That really is superb analysis Silver

You are a fantastic poster, it's a pleasure to read your posts, you should post more here for sure
Personally I agree with you, I think Federer is a marginally better volleyer than Nadal, but conversely I have seen Federer missing some really simply volleys over the years that Rafa wouldn't miss.

Bit late but thanks IMBL, I appreciate the kind words

Hawkeye - It's no big deal but I think you'll find that Federer has eight career doubles titles and not five.

Maybe just a typo ? (or are you using a dodgy source....? )

Apparently she just copies and pastes stuff without reading or understanding it.

lags72

Yes you are correct Federer has 8 doubles titles. I took figures from ATP site and didn't notice that in 2001,2 and 3 he won 2 titles. I will correct it. One of the titles I missed was a Masters too. So sorry Roger!

emancipator wrote:Apparently she just copies and pastes stuff without reading or understanding it.

Somebody on this forum who simply cuts and pastes. Only one?

Cut and paste the likes of wikipaedia at your peril. Mind you it's probably better than those (and , yes, they know who they are) who simply make things up as they go along.

emancipator wrote:Apparently she just copies and pastes stuff without reading or understanding it.

Ha ha! It's much easier to read things and pick on mistakes

Ok he, thanks.

I somehow doubt anyone in the Federer camp is reading this, but next time he calls me .... .... I'll pass on your apologies ......

Went with Federer and Murray, I think their skills would complement each others slightly better in a doubles setting. Would be very close though.

Sorry but I really don't see where this idea that Nadal is a good volleyer came from. He uses forehand grip and the technique is just so awkward - however his net play is smart and his overheads are very good - maybe this gives a false impression. There is a reason he doesn't come to the net very often.
And using his doubles results as indicator of his volleying skills is absolutely ridiculous - outside of the Davis Cup (which most of the time only Nadal out of the top 4 has a decent shot at winning) doubles is played at half-empty.

Fed and Murray would win easily - their serves are also considerably better than Djokovic and Nadal's.

theslosty wrote:Sorry but I really don't see where this idea that Nadal is a good volleyer came from. He uses forehand grip and the technique is just so awkward - however his net play is smart and his overheads are very good - maybe this gives a false impression. There is a reason he doesn't come to the net very often.
And using his doubles results as indicator of his volleying skills is absolutely ridiculous - outside of the Davis Cup (which most of the time only Nadal out of the top 4 has a decent shot at winning) doubles is played at half-empty.

Fed and Murray would win easily - their serves are also considerably better than Djokovic and Nadal's.

You Dont ????????

http://www.racingandsports.tv/rafael-nadal-great-stop-volley-against-lopez-us-op-v-4R5

As far as doubles go Djokovic and Murray would just be dead weight as shown by their far weaker doubles stats. It would be far more interesting if Federer and Nadal got a Bryan brother each. Then who would win? That would make a great charity event.

theslosty wrote:He uses forehand grip and the technique is just so awkward.

Garbage. Nadal uses continental grip just very slightly twisted over to Eastern on BH and FH volleys, just like Rafter did...was he doing it wrong too?
His action is textbook, any high level performance coach would to be delighted to play this way.
Watch this slo-mo... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aEfaaRRVPI

theslosty wrote:Fed and Murray would win easily - their serves are also considerably better than Djokovic and Nadal's.

Leander Paes has a relatively poor serve but he's a great doubles player. Isner has a great serve but is 50:50% for doubles wins. It's not about the serve...it's about returns, transition volleys, overheads, deft shots and quick hands around the net. All areas Nadal excels at.

It's such a shame that the top players don't (or very, very seldom) play doubles. Really sad the see the O2 so empty for the doubles matches, even with Marray's heroic run with Nielsen - it used to be almost as big a draw as singles for some of the partnerships.

Ah well.......!

here's a question: if Nadal and Djokovic were to team up in doubles, who would take which side of the court?

bare in mind that the backhand court (advantage court) for Djokovic is the FH court for Nadal, which is both their strongest strokes. Overall I'd fancy Djokovic to take the ad side, as he's better than Nadal at covering the wide serve which both Fed and Murray hit very well.

For Fed and Murray, there's no question IMO: Murray takes the ad side, Fed the deuce court. Not only does it mean they both have the side of the court favouring their stronger wing (though maybe not so much anymore, what with Fed's improved BH and Murray's harder FH?), but it means Murray is returning the Rafa slice out wide, where his double hander gives him a distinct advantage over Federer (a serve Fed has traditionally struggled with).

Good observation m4c, Nadal/Djokovic isn't a natural split on court. However, in doubles you want the player who is the best pressure point taker as most key points in tennis fall in the ad side. Again, they're both excellent at pressure points so agree Djokovic's BH is probably the deal breaker but it's very close given the strength of Nadal's FH.

Yes TP agree its a shame the top guys don't play more doubles. We can harp on about how great Marray and Bryan Brothers are but they wouldn't be able to earn a living frankly if the top 20 guys routinely played doubles.

When they played together Djoko played the ad court.

lydian wrote:Interestingly when you look at the USO12 final he won, he stayed back far more than Djokovic when you look at net approaches.

Murray: 16 of 24 = 67 %
Djokovic: 39 of 56 = 70 %

To add to this, Novak won 22 out 30 net points against Andy at the Tour Finals.

This area of Novak's game is something he has been particularly working on and it has really improved recently. Admittedly, it is improvement from quite a low starting point but it's improvement nevertheless!

I still maintain that Nadal is an average volleyer but in no way was I implying he lacked touch or skill - he often plays clever drop shots and has very good reflexes. I mean Federer has a rather average backhand but that's not saying he lacks skill or whatever.
But if Rafa really had the volleying ability of say Fed, Tsonga or Berdych surely he would come in more often - either that or he's tactically naive.

Another reason Murray/Fed would win is Rafa's returning style - he stands well behind the baseline - especially off first serve - which is ideal for net players.

either that or he's tactically naive.
-------------------------------------

Yep he is that alright !!!! just think of how many slams and Masters he would have won had he been smarter !!!

Exactly - therefore remind me why doesn't he attach the net more often?

theslosty wrote:Exactly - therefore remind me why doesn't he attach the net more often?

I think maybe haddie is taking the "Michael" slosty!

SL Who moi ????? nah

theslosty wrote:
But if Rafa really had the volleying ability of say Fed, Tsonga or Berdych surely he would come in more often - either that or he's tactically naive.

No, not really, not at all in-fact.
He could just prefer to stay at the back of the court normally, despite him being a good volleyer.

And atm due to court conditions and new racket technology favouring play at the baseline, I wouldn't label Nadal 'naive' for not coming to the net more often.

theslosty wrote:Exactly - therefore remind me why doesn't he attach the net more often?

...er, because he has some of the best groundstrokes of all time???
In other words, he doesnt need to.

slosky I know I was wumming you there a bit....but the only time Nadal was naive was when Uncle T put a raquet in his hand at the age of 4 yrs old. From then on he was the smartest kid you ever saw.

theslosty wrote:I still maintain that Nadal is an average volleyer but in no way was I implying he lacked touch or skill - he often plays clever drop shots and has very good reflexes. I mean Federer has a rather average backhand but that's not saying he lacks skill or whatever.
But if Rafa really had the volleying ability of say Fed, Tsonga or Berdych surely he would come in more often - either that or he's tactically naive.

Another reason Murray/Fed would win is Rafa's returning style - he stands well behind the baseline - especially off first serve - which is ideal for net players.

Hmmm....so why does Nadal have the best doubles W:L % of the 4 then? Because he cant return at doubles?

Did you see him win Queen's that year on grass that was fast as pre-2001 Wimbledon? He beat Karlovic on the way.
Look at this bit from the match on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gQavNqZPm4
At around 8m:35s...how far back is he when he hits the return winner off this Ivo 1st serve?
Try as people might to position him as some 10m behind the baseline grinder who cant volley either, Nadal isnt and never was a 1-trick pony.
Surfaces may have slowed but even still he's won every slam and OG on hard, you dont do that without immense all round skill/talent/call it what you will.

lydian wrote:....you dont do that without immense all round skill/talent/call it what you will.

Biceps?

(Joking...couldn't resist!)

people need to calm down and not take every single tiny criticism of their favourite player as a personal insult sometimes...

Nadal has very good hands - yes. It's also true that he tends to view volleying as a means of finishing points off rather than putting pressure on his opponent to hit a pass. This means he doesn't come into the net all that much (with his baseline game it's unnecessary), and usually has easy-ish put-away volleys (his prefered choice is the drop volley). HOWEVER, I've also seen Nadal make some really great volleys under pressure; like I said, very good hands.

It's also true that one of my greatest criticisms of Nadal is how far back he generally stands on return of serve, particularly the second serve to the ad court, where he usually insists on running around to hit a FH from well behind the baseline. I think he could be more aggressive on return of serve, but suspect this is a left-over from his clay upbringing, where the return of serve is rarely decisive. Murray and Djokovic are both more aggressive returners, which suits doubles more.

Djokovic has improved his volleying to the extent that he's more than competent at the net nowadays, and perhaps more willing to bluff his way in than Nadal, though in pure volleying skills he's less good.

Murray is a tricky one: he's got great hands, and in terms of natural skills at the net is second only to Federer if that, I've seen him make some unbelievable half-volleys, and anyone who can beat Nalbandian playing S&V behind both first and second serves must have something going for him. However, while sometimes he bluffs his way in, he's very reluctant to actually come into the net to finish a point off, and equally he's sometimes very casual on first volleys (which any other member of the top 4 would put away easily, he gives his opponent a look-in).

Fed has his good days and bad days at the net, I've seen him miss some embarassingly easy ones, but equally make some great ones. Much improved since his change of coach.

Lydian in no way is this a dig at Nadal but he definitely prefers to return from well behind the baseline and send a powerful groundstroke back - giving him plenty of time to position himself for the next shot.
Nadal has masses if talent and skill - like I said in no way am I belittling that - but many a time I have seen Rafa awkwardly push an easy volley back into the middle of the court.
His touch is excellent but for me anyway his volleying technique looks a little forced and slightly unnatural. No different to Fed's struggles with his backhand, Djokovic's serve, Murray's forehand etc.

lydian wrote:

theslosty wrote:I still maintain that Nadal is an average volleyer but in no way was I implying he lacked touch or skill - he often plays clever drop shots and has very good reflexes. I mean Federer has a rather average backhand but that's not saying he lacks skill or whatever.
But if Rafa really had the volleying ability of say Fed, Tsonga or Berdych surely he would come in more often - either that or he's tactically naive.

Another reason Murray/Fed would win is Rafa's returning style - he stands well behind the baseline - especially off first serve - which is ideal for net players.

Hmmm....so why does Nadal have the best doubles W:L % of the 4 then? Because he cant return at doubles?

Did you see him win Queen's that year on grass that was fast as pre-2001 Wimbledon? He beat Karlovic on the way.
Look at this bit from the match on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gQavNqZPm4
At around 8m:35s...how far back is he when he hits the return winner off this Ivo 1st serve?
Try as people might to position him as some 10m behind the baseline grinder who cant volley either, Nadal isnt and never was a 1-trick pony.
Surfaces may have slowed but even still he's won every slam and OG on hard, you dont do that without immense all round skill/talent/call it what you will.

Thanks for that clip Lydian... he hasn´t been around for 6mths and I think we need to be reminded of just how good he is .. no matter where he stands on the court and whether you like him or not

theslosty wrote:Lydian in no way is this a dig at Nadal but he definitely prefers to return from well behind the baseline and send a powerful groundstroke back - giving him plenty of time to position himself for the next shot.
Nadal has masses if talent and skill - like I said in no way am I belittling that - but many a time I have seen Rafa awkwardly push an easy volley back into the middle of the court.
His touch is excellent but for me anyway his volleying technique looks a little forced and slightly unnatural. No different to Fed's struggles with his backhand, Djokovic's serve, Murray's forehand etc.

Even though I am a Nadal fan, I think this is astute analysis

Welcome back MFC Good to see you here.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:people need to calm down and not take every single tiny criticism of their favourite player as a personal insult sometimes...

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
Nadal has very good hands - yes. It's also true that he tends to view volleying as a means of finishing points off rather than putting pressure on his opponent to hit a pass. This means he doesn't come into the net all that much (with his baseline game it's unnecessary), and usually has easy-ish put-away volleys (his prefered choice is the drop volley). HOWEVER, I've also seen Nadal make some really great volleys under pressure; like I said, very good hands.

It's also true that one of my greatest criticisms of Nadal is how far back he generally stands on return of serve, particularly the second serve to the ad court, where he usually insists on running around to hit a FH from well behind the baseline. I think he could be more aggressive on return of serve, but suspect this is a left-over from his clay upbringing, where the return of serve is rarely decisive. Murray and Djokovic are both more aggressive returners, which suits doubles more.

Yes, you've made some fair points

m4c, I dont take every point as a criticism, I'm merely objecting to things I dont agree with...e.g. Nadal having a FH grip for his volleys. Its incorrect. Nadal probably has the most factually incorrect stuff (as I see it...but I'm also happy to be proved wrong) pointed his way than just about any other player. Its not tribalism, its just pointing out counter-arguments.

theslosty, you make some good points, apologies if I'm appearing to jump down your throat. I agree that he's not a perfectly natural volleyer because its not his core game style, but he has pretty much flawless execution so could probably excel better upfront if he decided to. Given his FH is a brute of a shot he doesnt really need to come forward that often.

At the end of the day, all these 8+ slammers are insanely talented...in most areas of the game. Even Agassi wasnt a bad volleyer, especially half-volleys. But Agassi and Nadal can never be up there with the net-rushers of the past, its just not their game.

Yes HN, it'll be good to see his brand of tennis back on tour again. The game misses him for sure...even Djokovic does, it was almost the first thing he said after winning WTF!

Fair enough Lydian glad you saw the light

Lol...depends what you mean by see the light