Keeping the Wheels on - AKA England's next EPS

After a remarkable finish to the Autumn series Stuart Lancaster and his coaches next mission will be the new years EPS. Chosen in January it will not be open for change until Sep that year (except swaps for injuries) so he'll need to plan well and pick not only on current form but prior experience and future potential.

In the final game of the AI's the starting team that day showed the route that England rugby needs to take on the pitch; hard and aggressive up front with the pack sharing the duties of fetching, carrying and rucking amongst a core group of multi skilled players rather then selecting various specialists for one or two specific roles. In the backs we say a few glimpses of the Catt/Farrel/Lancaster triumvirate in action with Youngs getting some quick ball and kicking well, and the 10 drawing his centres up to the line at pace and actually giving Tuilagi good ball to use. The left wing and full back then create momentum from the back by beating their first man when countering and staying tall in the tackle to wait for support.

Of course there were players who failed to cover themselves in glory like wise others who were never deemed good enough to get a chance or who were only in because of multiple injuries. These I expect to see fall by the road side next year.

The current England Elite Player Squad

Forwards (17)
Props
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Joe Marler (Harlequins), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Hookers
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby) Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers), David Paice (London Irish)
Locks
Mouritz Botha (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Tom Palmer (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers) Joe Launchberry (London Wasps)
Flankers
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints) James Haskell (London Wasps)
No 8's
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)


Backs (15)
Scrum Halfs
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Danny Care (Harlequins)
Fly Halfs
Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Centers
Anthony Allan (Leicester Tigers), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins), Johnathen Joseph (London Irish) Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Wings
Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), (Ugo Monye (Harlequins))
Fullbacks
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens)

Players in italics were the latest changes allowed through injury or retirement (potentially the most likely to lose their spots again).

So to me the bulk of that 32 man squad looks about right, there are still quite a few players that are potentially a little worried about their places now:

Mako Vunipola (only came in for an injured Corbs but didn't look too comfy at times)
Rob Webber (Youngs looked a lot better and Hartley is still first choice)
David Paice (only came in for an injured Webber, didn't play better then Youngs or Hartley)
Mauritz Botha (just not an international lock, shown up completely by Launchberry)
Tom Palmer (anonymous around the park and not good enough at lineout time)
Courtney Lawes (injured a lot, is he big enough to partner Parling or athletic enough to partner Launchberry)
Tom Johnson (just doesn't play the style that England seem to need)
Tom Croft (injured and does his style fit England)
Phil Dowson (over 30 and can't make the match day 23)
James Haskell (Only came in for injuries, not sure if he did enough to stay)
Thomas Waldrom (pushed out of the starting lineup and hardly likely to make the bench)
Lee Dickson (can't make the match day 23)
Anthony Allan (can not make the 23, average club player)
Brad Barritt (bar one game looked out of his depth, potentially a new Noone)
Jordan Turner Hall (Like Barritt but less pace and no real vision, injured at a bad time)
Chris Ashton (A media darling but lazy in defence and pretty anonymous in most games, riding on rep at the moment)
Ugo Monye (only called up for injuries, didn't do enough)
Charlie Sharples (poor defence let him down)
Ben Foden (unlucky with an injury and now has two critical players in front of him)

Now I don't think all of these players will go, but there are a few who are near certainties.

Yappysnap's Elite Player Squad
Forwards (17)
Props
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Joe Marler (Harlequins), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)
Hookers
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Locks
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Joe Launchberry (London Wasps), David Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Flankers
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (London Wasps)
No 8's
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Backs (15)
Scrum Halfs
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Danny Care (Harlequins)
Fly Halfs
Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Centers
Brad Barritt (Saracens), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), George Lowe (Harlequins), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Kyle Eastmond (Bath)
Wings
Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints),Christian Wade (Wasps)
Fullbacks
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens)

The changes are
David Wilson did enough to get in to the EPS permanently
Nick Wood comes in to replace Vunipola as a trial
Tom Youngs replaces Webber as very real competition for Hartley
Dave Attwood comes in for Palmer to add some bulk and physicality if needed
James Haskell takes Johnsons place as he adds a bit more physicality and covers the back three
Billy Vunipola is trialled in Waldroms place to see his carrying game
Freddue Burns gets a permanent spot for Hodgeson
George Lowe, Billy Twelvetrees and Kyle Eastmond all come in to the squad to trial different attributes in the centres as well as cover the wings if needed.
Christian Wade comes in on the wing

That mostly looks sensible. Couple of thoughts:

Mako Vunipola looked as comfortable as Marler against the Aussies (though Marler was heavily disadvantaged by the Assistant Ref not spotting the blatantly illegal binding of the Aussie TH). Looks to me like Rowntree sees him as a project, so I expect him to stick around.

The fourth lock in the EPS needs to be a lineout specialist in case Parling gets injured - I don't think that's Attwood, though I don't know who it is.

Haskell is unlikely to replace James Johnston in the Samoa squad. I think you mean Tom Johnson, but otherwise I'd agree. Croft may be racing him for that spot, though.

Centre offer the biggest conundrum. The value of JTH is that he can play a similar style to Barritt, though I think it's harsh to describe him as having less vision. When Quins don't use him as a battering ram (which isn't often), he has a very flat, wide pass and his offloading would suit the emerging England style. Twelvetrees might make sense if Burns is going to play more often. Eastmond has potential but it's very early for him. Sadly, I think Lowe needs a long run at Quins to prove he's over his ankle injury.

I just don't trust Wade's defence yet... see what he can do in the Saxons over 6N, try him on the summer tour if he comes through that. In contrast to most people, I think Lancaster will persist with Brown on the left wing in the short term. His ability to fight his way through tackles, work his way back inside and present the ball cleanly are currently more valuable to England than an absolute speedster on the outside.

The other, general point, is that Lancaster is the first coach since SCW to take on board a fundamental point about the ABs: a lot of their advantage is that they work harder than everyone else. The defining quality of Lancaster's sides has been in picking players who have big engines and huge work ethic. I think new players breaking into the EPS will need to demonstrate that in spade.

Cheers for that.

Vunipola could be a project for Rowntree but I think probably in the Saxons, Wood could be a bit less dynamic but maybe more solid all around.

My thinking re the lock was that I struggled to find a lineout lock suitable and potentially Wood or Croft can help cover that from 6.

Haskell has always struck me as a Tongan prop but I'll take your comments on board.

Barritt only just maybe does enough at Int level and there are still questions there I can't see JTH offering anything more and tbh Twelvetrees should be able to do everything they do but with more strings to his bow. Eastmond is really there to train with the guys as he looks like he could be amazing at wing, 10 or center. Lowe is a lot more solid then Joseph and will have a chance to get a good run of games under his belt, he's also very quick and could work well with 36.

Wade is probably there more to learn then play, With two of the three full backs starting there'll only be one winger and that will go Ashton then Wade (with potentially Joseph/Sharples dropping in as injury cover depending on form).

I agree with the last point a lot. These changes are all mainly so that SL can see how the new guys train, I don't expect many to walk straight in to the 23.

But just like the AB's as well as a team of grafters with big engines we do need some game breakers (like SBW, Jane, Savea, Dagg) who can in a small space of time completely change the complexion of a game.

It's Tom Johnson, not Johnston and he's definitely not called James either. Haven't got any complaints about him being dropped, did a job for England at a time when resources were stretched. Don't think he embarrassed himself at all but there are better options.

The problem with lock is that actually running the lineout is a different thing from just being good in the air. Lancaster's already said that he has his eye on Charlie Matthews (who played alongside Launchbury at U20 level) so in the long run that might be the answer - but in the short term I don't know what the answer is. As you say, there aren't that many putting their hands up.

I am a huge fan of Lowe, but his ankle injury over the summer seems to be taking a long while for him to get over fully. I would want to see him stay fit for a decent run - but if he can, I think he deserves a look, though he'd need to get past Joseph. Lowe running off Tuilagi could be a very potent combination given his running lines and ability to find space.

Any room for Fearns...maybe the Saxons?

I dont think we need to make many big changes to the squad..just a few tweaks here and there...

A couple that i would replace would be...Johnson, Dowson and Botha,

Tom Youngs...well lets give him credit...a total novice just about and yet he's put himself as a real deal challenger for that 2 spot. And to be honest i dont think Hartley should come straight back in.

I was not a fan of Youngs being fast-tracked, but he's proved me very wrong. His efforts around the park show his background as a centre; the main thing that he has to fix is that his lineout throwing seems to be very binary: either he's spot-on all game, or about a third of them go awry.

Yup the lineout is a critical part..but he will improve working with Cockerill and Chuter...

The rest of his game was impressive however...just so powerful and dynamic. Yes he can work on his tackles...(half the team could to be honest - and why Garvey should be in there) but he was a big plus

I think that Parling and Launchbury made a chalk & cheese, yet perfect partnership myself. Parling is a master of the line out, accurate hands and a soft touch from 12 ft in the air and over this series has been a absolute spider on the ground to boot.

In contrast, the physicality of Launchbury and his unphasable attitude he was a shot in the arm for the forwards and has taken to test level Rugby like a duck to water. Put them together and they worked well beyind my expectation to be honest.

Of course it's not sensible to put all your eggs in one basket, but i think at the moment they both have their shirts well strapped on.

Regarding lock I also think that in addition to Parling, Launchbury & Lawes we should be looking at another player who can lead the lineout. For me that would be Kitchener, he's looked really good for Tigers this season and has been showing continued progress for the last couple. He's quality at the lineout (plus Youngs is used to working with him), carries well, tackles well and seems to have good grit and edge to him.

Kitchener - Attwood
8 Matches 10
1 Tries 0
0 Try assist 0
18 Passes 10
32 Carries 28
130 Metres carried 60
3 Clean breaks 0
0 Offloads 1
3 Defenders beaten 5
63 Tackles 83
4 Missed tackles 8
5 Penalties conceded 4
7 Turnovers conceded 3
40 Line outs won own throw 27
2 Lineout steals 1


As someone else mentioned above, should Parling be injured there is also the possibility of playing both Launchbury & Lawes and looking at Wood running the lineout. After some very good lineout performances by Saints earlier in the season I posted a question on who was running it given Sorenson was out injured and was informed by Saints supporters it was Wood. Can any Tigers supporters tell us if Croft has ever run their lineout?

I guess Kitchener is another option i'd forgotten about, he never looks that tall to me though, could he compete at Int level against the best lineout units out there? Before his injury how was Day going at Saints? There's always Robson of Quins, and if we want lineout players I guess he is the next one in line...

How is Charlie Matthews coming along? Whenever i've seen him play i've always heard a lot of good things but never seen much, he definitely still looks some way behind Robson and Kohn.

Geordie, Fearns is in the Saxons already, they just didn't play any games over the Autumn so we didn't see him, but he showed up well in the summer and the more he plays the better suited he'll be to Int rugby.

Oh and another lock/flanker that'll almost definitely be in the Saxons is Savage from Gloucester, I don't suppose he's a lineout technician is he?

Kitchener is the same as Parling - 6'6. So shouldnt be an issue.

Robson divides fans...for me he just doesnt seem to have the physicality required....

Savage has done well...

And yes i completely forgot Fearns was in the Saxons...dope...

Would like to see either Attwood or Savage in the EPS for 6 Nations, but agree we need another lineout specialist. Unless of course, Wood or Croft can call the lineout? That way, we could afford to have a second row split of 3 enforcers to 1 specialist?

yappysnap wrote: There's always Robson of Quins, and if we want lineout players I guess he is the next one in line...

I was as shocked as the next Quins fan about Robson included for the beginning of the AI's, but he would make a good alternative to work with in the stead of Parling should he be injured or unavailable. He is damn good as a line out technician.

The problem AW is watching what Parling gets through in a game, I don't think Robson can match that. And if he doesn't do all that work then it falls on the backrow. We need a lock who's happy to do a heck of a lot of skivvy work as well as run the lineout.

Matthews was going well until he broke his ankle last season. Is back now; seems to have lost a little impact in the loose, but that will probably come with experience.

However, in the set piece he is impressing me. He's a genuine option in the lineout (definitely more so than Kohn), and is the only other Quin who brings the same solidity to the scrum that Kohn does.

Not there yet, but looks like he will be there before too long.

yappysnap wrote:The problem AW is watching what Parling gets through in a game, I don't think Robson can match that. And if he doesn't do all that work then it falls on the backrow. We need a lock who's happy to do a heck of a lot of skivvy work as well as run the lineout.

At the moment he couldn't at all Yappy, completely agreed, i'd like to see his stats for some of the skivvy work through Quins matches - I've been at almost all home games this season and he does get stuck in, but not with the physicality of Launchbury (then again not many are as it stands!). Robson didn't do too badly int eh dirt track games on the summer tour either.

Carl Fearns is injured again btw, not 100% sure how long its going to be this time, but seeing as Bath have signed another backrower until the end of the season I'd guess a good few months.

In his continued absence I would like to see Billy Vuniola training with the squad. He is looking like a very dynamic attacking type of no.8. and I don't see Waldrom as either a long term or even particularly short term solution.

All in all I think I'd agree with most of your changes yappy. The other slight query I would have would be Kyle Eastmond. The bloke has played very few games of union and I wonder if it would be better for him to play rather than just hold tackle pads? Having said that Robinson was fast tracked of course and that seemed to work out ok.

Yappysnap I am a bit confused - you would take out Jonathan Joseph and put in Kyle Eastmond? Quite baffling I must say.

I am keeping my eye on Joel Tomkins as a potential contender at 13. Heard he had a good game vs Gloucester.

I agree with others about needing more lineout operators.

Personally in regards to M.Vunipola vs Wood let's see how they do in Europe.

The rest I agree with.

I think Robson is much maligned in terms of his game, largely based on assumption rather than actual observation. He wouldn't make my EPS, but whenever I've seen him play he puts in plenty of graft and is effective doing so. I think Quins often making him captain is recognition of this.

To be honest, based on his previous England & Tigers performances I was probably more concerned about how much Parling brought aside from his lineout ability, but he really upped his game this autumn and proved my concerns wrong.

What happened to PDJ? He seems to have dropped right off the radar after being the golden boy of the Elite system.
He certainly did a heck of a lot more to convince than Vunipola has so far.

If croft is back and fit hes an obvious bench option to add some pace as the game breaks up, bolster the lineout and generaly just do everything except his job.

PDJ I think is a victim of the 8-man bench. He was the best available prop who could play both sides (at least once Stevens went into decline), but now you can have a specialist TH and LH on the bench I believe there are others who are better at each of the individual jobs.

I agree Waldrom should also be one to drop out (i dont think he will)as i just dont think he offers much. Whilst their all round game leaves a little be to be worked on Morgan was much more impressive ball in hand over waldrom ...which is the role they were picked for.

Id be looking at other 8's to back up Morgan...Vunipola could be the obvious one...but id love to see Haskell get a run of games at 8 for Wasps. Haskell is a powerful guy who impresses me when he plays.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I agree Waldrom should also be one to drop out (i dont think he will)as i just dont think he offers much. Whilst their all round game leaves a little be to be worked on Morgan was much more impressive ball in hand over waldrom ...which is the role they were picked for.

Id be looking at other 8's to back up Morgan...Vunipola could be the obvious one...but id love to see Haskell get a run of games at 8 for Wasps. Haskell is a powerful guy who impresses me when he plays.

In their 2 respective starts in the AIs:

Morgan/Waldrom
Metres 92/95
Clean Breaks 0/0
Defenders Beaten 3/3
Offloads 4/4


I'd also rather we looked elsewhere than Waldrom, but in all honesty I don't get this painting of Morgan being so significantly better than him.

I think it would be more honest for people to just say they don't like players like Waldrom & Barritt because they didn't come to this country until they were professionals and they'd rather more 'English' candidates were picked.

Yeah, i never got the Waldrom slating. I rather like Thomas the Tank Engine.

I prefer Morgan, couldn't tell you why, but i'd certainly like to see both get game time. Not sensible to rely on 1 person; you're stuffed if they get injured.

Er Waldrum played against Australia and Fiji. Morgan played against South Africa and New Zealand. And they have similar stats so that means they did the same...?

HammerofThunor wrote:Er Waldrum played against Australia and Fiji. Morgan played against South Africa and New Zealand. And they have similar stats so that means they did the same...?

I think you'll find I didn't say that, just that although I also prefer Morgan he wasn't "significantly better" or "much more impressive ball in hand" and that I feel some posters are disingenuous about why they really want him dropped.

If you want to make a more like for like comparison however, you could look at their respective performances against SA and Australia:

Morgan/Waldrom
Metres 52/48
Clean Breaks 0/0
Defenders Beaten 3/1
Offloads 2/2
Conceded Turnovers 3/1
Tackles Made 7/15
Tackles Missed 1/0

Must say Yappy I completely agree with you that the older squad players who weren't used during these internationals need to be let go. The younger starting players have shown they deserve to keep their places and if the older lot aren't going to be used then it makes sense to promote some of the more promising players to give them exposure to the wider squad.

The question comes in how many changes Lancaster can make. I think LondonTiger said on an earlier thread he can change 6, less injuries, at which point who do you lose and who replaces them. As you mentioned above, i think England have seen the benefits of playing with an aggressive pack who can dominate teams up front and take them on at and around the collision area to create the space for the backs as opposed to having forwards loitering around the centres waiting for the ball to come to them. This realisation i think could be key in what changes he makes. For me Johnson is the person at the biggest risk for the 6N with potentially even Croft in the long term as I can't see how they fit into that picture. For the time being I would look at the following changes:

Youngs for Webber
Launchbury for Botha
Haskell for Johnson
B. Vunipola for Dowson (statistically he's been the best 8 in he prem this season and if Morgans going to be No 1 then get him in the squad for experience)
Burns for Waldrum
Twelvetrees for Allen (England need a ball playing 12 and I think this year 36 has shown he is ready to step up and be that)

Long term Lancaster needs to make changes to the wider squad with Palmer, Dickson and Turnerhall (I can't see the point of 3 12s in the squad, would rather anoher winger) all at threat.

Everyone in the West Country seems to have it in for Flood at the minute

I agree with AlastairW on Waldrom in that I've never really understood a lot of the slating he gets. Yes he isn't a long term option and I'd probably replace him with Billy Vunipola for the 6N's but there seems a general idea he isn't a good player which isn't true. He's performed very well for one of the top clubs in the Jeff since arriving here and is always reliable in attack and defence. He'd still be first in-line after Morgan/Vunipola in case of injury.

In regards to the rest of the squad I'd go for:

Loosehead - Corbs,Marler
Hooker - Hartley, Youngs
Tighthead - Cole, Wilson
Locks - Parling, Launchberry, Lawes, Palmer
Blindside - Wood, Croft, Haskell, Johnson
Openside - Robshaw
No 8 - Morgan, Vunipola

Scrum Half - Youngs, Care, Dickson
Fly Half - Burns, Flood, Farrell

Inside Centre - Twelvetrees, Barritt
Outside Cente - Tuilagi, Joseph
Wings - Ashton, Wade
Full Back - Foden, Brown, Goode (Foden/Brown covering wing)

I'd still love to see Johnny May in the squad as a wing when fit as I just feel his game could work so well with our game plan. I have taken some flak for those calls recently however so I'll keep my head down on that. Keeping on the subject of the wings I still feel Monye has plenty to offer contrary to some belief and he'd be next in line for the squad in case of injury.

I'd still like to see Burns and Twelvetrees starting in the 6N. I can understand people calling for Farrell/Barritt to start given their performance against NZ but the facts from before that game still stand in that the Barritt-Tuilagi partnership hasn't shown a consistent threat in attack. IMO Twelvetrees offers exactly what we've been missing from the mid-field with a great passing game, good vision in attack and a huge boot to take pressure of the 10/9.

At fly-half Burns simply offers too much in attack to ignore given our game plan.

The pack has played well and would stay much the same for me.

splenetic wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I agree Waldrom should also be one to drop out (i dont think he will)as i just dont think he offers much. Whilst their all round game leaves a little be to be worked on Morgan was much more impressive ball in hand over waldrom ...which is the role they were picked for.

Id be looking at other 8's to back up Morgan...Vunipola could be the obvious one...but id love to see Haskell get a run of games at 8 for Wasps. Haskell is a powerful guy who impresses me when he plays.

In their 2 respective starts in the AIs:

Morgan/Waldrom
Metres 92/95
Clean Breaks 0/0
Defenders Beaten 3/3
Offloads 4/4


I'd also rather we looked elsewhere than Waldrom, but in all honesty I don't get this painting of Morgan being so significantly better than him.

I think it would be more honest for people to just say they don't like players like Waldrom & Barritt because they didn't come to this country until they were professionals and they'd rather more 'English' candidates were picked.

Its not about Englishness...ive actually been one of the few on here who's been supporting Barritt. The Stats show an equal standard of perfromance...so maybe its just personal preferance...but i just feel Morgan gives more aggression and power whilst carrying..and can move on to the next level whereas Waldrom wont.

I agree with almost everything the OP has said with one exception. That is the inclusion of Tom Croft? Surely until he has got back to his best with Tigers he can't be anywhere near consideration let alone inclusion in the EPS.

SL doesn't pick players based on reputation alone as far as I can see.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Everyone in the West Country seems to have it in for Flood at the minute

Well, if he will keep on causing train cancellations and increasing the length of everyone's commute he's going to get a bit of stick. I heard he got into some people's houses and wrecked them. Hardly behaviour befitting the current regime.

englandglory4ever wrote:I agree with almost everything the OP has said with one exception. That is the inclusion of Tom Croft? Surely until he has got back to his best with Tigers he can't be anywhere near consideration let alone inclusion in the EPS.

SL doesn't pick players based on reputation alone as far as I can see.

Werent Wood and Lawes included in the EPS despite injuries or being injured?

Ive never been Crofts biggest fan...but i held my hand up...he was outstanding in the last 6n. And he will defo be included in the next EPS....

However personally I still think on his day Wood gives us a better option at 6.

Do you think Easter will get another go this spring?

No i cant see that at all Peter...

Morgan / Waldrom
Vunipola

look to be the three to me...

I said before id like to see Haskell move to 8.

I agree with GF regarding Wood over Croft. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Wood and being a Tigers fan too, I'm obviously a massive fan of Croft. I just think Croft will have so much to do to oust Wood from the starting lineup, and in my opinion they can't operate in the same backrow. Wood's excellent, and combines well with Robshaw and Morgan to form the backrow.

It is pretty unlikely that Lancatser will be chopping wood this winter

I think that all the players that played in the last game against the All Blacks will keep their place in the England squad come the 6ns.

I do however see SL bringing in other players like Biggs, Wade, Varndell (possibly) maybe even Trinder will get alook in..

England will got go backwards under Lancaster that's for sure.

For too long England head coaches have picked alott of player's on reputation or from the start of the year to the end of the year.

I do believe that any player not pulling his wait will not keep his place for very long and will soon be replaced( Dropped. ) Something that never used too happen before.

England are bringing in younger players and they are starting to produce the goods, that could make England and the England team the most respected (feared )team again.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:It is pretty unlikely that Lancatser will be chopping wood this winter

No but I suspect he might wave good bye to Palmer. Actually I think Botha original EPS locks will be replaced.

Botha them? Quite possibly

I think a new winger could wade into this debate too.

I hope Biggs doesn't come in. Time has gone for him when he was messing around with Leeds and Newcastle.

I'm sick of capping players when they approach 30 and would why we have a relatively old team for the number of caps they have. If they are hand and shoulders about everyone else then fair enough. But I'd stick with Ashton and Sharples. Bring in Wade for a chance. I'd probably stick with the other wing being a back up full back.

Wales have a younger team and much more experienced (I think). We need to take their example (but win games)

Croft is in there as he's a proven top level player, just like Wood and Lawes although neither have played as well as him.

Remember that in some of our best matches over the last few seasons he has been a key player, yes he isn't hard like Wood but he isn't limp either.

I would also say that this current regime should not be afraid of dropping players who aren't playing to their best.

They have to keep that hunger for the shirt and by moving guys down to the Saxons and then promoting others it'll hopefully keep that competition for places going. Often over the last decade England have gone from one game to the next looking too much like they believe all their own hype, hopefully Lancs will put an end to that.

HammerofThunor wrote:I hope Biggs doesn't come in. Time has gone for him when he was messing around with Leeds and Newcastle.

I'm sick of capping players when they approach 30 and would why we have a relatively old team for the number of caps they have. If they are hand and shoulders about everyone else then fair enough. But I'd stick with Ashton and Sharples. Bring in Wade for a chance. I'd probably stick with the other wing being a back up full back.

Wales have a younger team and much more experienced (I think). We need to take their example (but win games)

I hadn't realised Biggs was 28 already. In fairness to SL, capping slightly older players has worked with Parling and Brown (Brown had a few caps already, but not for a while), and I think Dowson was a useful option while Morgan got used to international rugby, Wood was injured and Haskell was in NZ.

Brown came back in when he was 26. Those 2 years are pretty significant in a short career (and as you said he had already been capped).

Parling is a lock and got capped when he was younger than Biggs will be. Dowson turned out to be a big mistake as he seemed to have lost it. Waldrum is reasonably old but there isn't much choice at 8 at the moment. I imagine if Vunipola comes good Waldrum won't last long (although he's younger than he looks).

I'm not one for playing people just because they're young but if it's close I'd pick a young player (especially for fringe players that probably won't play.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Botha them? Quite possibly

I think a new winger could wade into this debate too.

Could be some changes in the backrow too. Johnson's been limp this autumn, we're so much firmer when Wood comes on

I wonder if instead of Dickson he'll find room for another young SH

HammerofThunor wrote:I hope Biggs doesn't come in. Time has gone for him when he was messing around with Leeds and Newcastle.

I'm sick of capping players when they approach 30 and would why we have a relatively old team for the number of caps they have. If they are hand and shoulders about everyone else then fair enough. But I'd stick with Ashton and Sharples. Bring in Wade for a chance. I'd probably stick with the other wing being a back up full back.

Wales have a younger team and much more experienced (I think). We need to take their example (but win games)

How can you say that about Biggs, he has been one of the most consistent wingers in the Aviva for the last two seasons, he deserves a chance.