Is the HEC bulls**t crusade going to kill Scottish and Italian rugby?

First topic message reminder :

If they get their way and marginalise the smaller nations, surely players will leave, fans will stop going and rugby will (comparatively) die in those countries

AlastairW wrote:

TJ wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:So would I TJ, assuming it was a 1 for each nation and the rest on league position. Or 2 for Wales/Ireland and the remainder on league position. Then hc/amilin winners country gets an extra if they have already qualified through league position.

Right so thats that sorted. Public finances up next?

Bloody hell - a reasonable englishman

You've changed your tune. You were arguing against that vehemently a little while ago.

No I wasn't - I have consistently suggested this as a compromise 5 / 5 / 8 plus 2 winners. Its not what I would like but its a reasonable compromise perhaps.

Show me where I argued against this

earlier today for example and I have said this many times

TJ wrote:so if the numbers need to be reduced then why do the english teams deserve to be protected but not the irish. scots, italians or welsh?

I would settle for 5/5/8 plus hc and amlin winners

TJ wrote:

AlastairW wrote:

TJ wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:So would I TJ, assuming it was a 1 for each nation and the rest on league position. Or 2 for Wales/Ireland and the remainder on league position. Then hc/amilin winners country gets an extra if they have already qualified through league position.

Right so thats that sorted. Public finances up next?

Bloody hell - a reasonable englishman

You've changed your tune. You were arguing against that vehemently a little while ago.

No I wasn't - I have consistently suggested this as a compromise 5 / 5 / 8 plus 2 winners. Its not what I would like but its a reasonable compromise perhaps.

Show me where I argued against this

To be honest, I think you've both been arguing for similar outcomes, and consistently mis-interpreting each-other's points on the fringes

TJ wrote:so if the numbers need to be reduced then why do the english teams deserve to be protected but not the irish. scots, italians or welsh?

I would settle for 5/5/8 plus hc and amlin winners

I never said they did. From the outset on this thread I've said entrants from all leagues should be decreased so that the Heineken Cup is more competitive and features Europe's true best, with the Amlin increased in stature by featuring more teams of greater and comparable ability.

This whole topic is incredible to read.

And all from so few actual facts.

markb wrote:

TJ wrote:so if the numbers need to be reduced then why do the english teams deserve to be protected but not the irish. scots, italians or welsh?

I would settle for 5/5/8 plus hc and amlin winners

I never said they did. From the outset on this thread I've said entrants from all leagues should be decreased so that the Heineken Cup is more competitive and features Europe's true best, with the Amlin increased in stature by featuring more teams of greater and comparable ability.

Its a general point not aimed at you specifically. the English and the french want the numbers in the cup reduced. if so ( I don't believe it is needed) then every nation should take some of the pain

Surely the English and French want the numbers reduced because it leaves more money for them, so they can't have their numbers reduced.

The Great Aukster wrote:Surely the English and French want the numbers reduced because it leaves more money for them, so they can't have their numbers reduced.

The "more money for them" part could come from paying the same money to clubs in both the HEC and the Amlin instead of the current per-country split which (roughly) reflects the number of HEC entries.


Please note, masses of speculation and conjecture there

The Great Aukster wrote:Surely the English and French want the numbers reduced because it leaves more money for them, so they can't have their numbers reduced.

I disagree.

Franglos want the Amlin (or its successor competition) strengthened. The intention is to achieve this by:
1. Broadening its appeal with the inclusion of more Scottish, Irish and Welsh teams.
2. Toughening it by the exclusion of Tier 2 teams (except 2 qualifiers).
3. Incentivising it by, errrrm, offering an HC place to the winner?

In my opinion, the strengthening of the Amlin is at, or near, the top of the agenda of the PRL - 1/2 (or 5/12) of its members compete in it each year and would continue to do so under the Franglo proposals. All but Leicester have competed in it in recent years, and know how poor the pool stages can be. There would be serious busting of balls if PRL come out of this without a worthwhile secondary competition.

The reduction in HC places is as much about strengthening the Amlin as it is about HC.

It's spurious to consider that there would be more money amongst fewer teams in the HC. It is likely that there will be the same number of Tier 1 teams competing in ERC (or its successor) competitions. Negotiations for the distribution of money are not dependent on representation in HC, they are dependent on who agrees and for how much. HC generates much more money than the Amlin, in the same way that English and French based eyeballs generate more TV money. As has been so eloquently argued elsewhere, it is equitable that the income is collected and largely distributed evenly, whether it's generated by geographic eyeballs or primary/secondary competitions, isn't it?

Doubleyew I do not buy that at all. That is a smoke screen for the PRL. I am certain their motivation is all about getting control of the HC and making it easier for the english clubs to win it. French motivation for the reduction in numbers is to reduce the number of games played by their top teams. the English originally did not want to reduce numbers but took on that part of the French proposal. the PRL proposals would narrow the game not widen it by making it harder to get into the top tier especially for smaller unions.

If they really wanted to strengthen the amlin then why does all the reduction in the entrants to the HC come from the rabo teams? This makes no sense at all.

Good point TJ, we should leave the lesser Rabos out of the Amlin too.

TJ, you make a couple of good points.

"French motivation for the reduction in numbers is to reduce the number of games played by their top teams"
That's my understanding too, and I'm still puzzled as to how the Franglo proposals achieve this.

"the English originally did not want to reduce numbers but took on that part of the French proposal"
Again, that's my understanding too, though there's so little information floating about it's difficult to form a clear opinion. Any response of mine would be pure speculation.

"the PRL proposals would narrow the game not widen it by making it harder to get into the top tier especially for smaller unions."
I'm not sure that either the status quo or the Franglos particularly
helps the minnows. I'll wait till I see some more solid proposals for a tertiary competition before forming an opinion, but I'd edge towards the Franglos on the basis that there's likely to be some cross-border competition between teams of roughly equal ability, and may broaden the game with the inclusion of Georgians, Russians, etc.

"If they really wanted to strengthen the amlin then why does all the reduction in the entrants to the HC come from the rabo teams? This makes no sense at all."
I disagree, it does make sense. The Amlin is virtually an Anglo-French competition as it is, at least until the parachuting of the HC Didn't-Quite-Make-Its into the knock-outs. A 9th French team or a 7th English team wouldn't really enhance the competition, whereas cross-border pool games with Scots, Irish, more Welsh and better Italians would.

There is a compelling logic to the desire of PRL to enhance the Amlin - as I said, half its members compete in it, and some of the pool games at present aren't really attractive fixtures. Some of them are, though, and if the majority become so, it becomes a worthwhile competition, attracting sponsorship, TV, bums on seats and providing a challenge and learning experience for players.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:"If they really wanted to strengthen the amlin then why does all the reduction in the entrants to the HC come from the rabo teams? This makes no sense at all."
I disagree, it does make sense. The Amlin is virtually an Anglo-French competition as it is, at least until the parachuting of the HC Didn't-Quite-Make-Its into the knock-outs. A 9th French team or a 7th English team wouldn't really enhance the competition, whereas cross-border pool games with Scots, Irish, more Welsh and better Italians would.

There is a compelling logic to the desire of PRL to enhance the Amlin - as I said, half its members compete in it, and some of the pool games at present aren't really attractive fixtures. Some of them are, though, and if the majority become so, it becomes a worthwhile competition, attracting sponsorship, TV, bums on seats and providing a challenge and learning experience for players.

... except the PRL are pushing the idea that an Anglo French competition in place of the HEC is just as commercial, therefore why shouldn't it be at Amlin level? Their negotiating position is weakened by that ambiguity.

The Amlin has no romance and is far too predictable - that's why it is floundering. Simply sprinkling a few more Rabo teams won't make it commercially attractive. It shouldn't be the rather disappointing slightly faded photocopy of the HEC but a totally different style of competition to spark interest.

The Amlin has no romance and is far too predictable - that's why it is floundering. Simply sprinkling a few more Rabo teams won't make it commercially attractive. It shouldn't be the rather disappointing slightly faded photocopy of the HEC but a totally different style of competition to spark interest.

A more interesting Amlin / tourney for the lessor teams would be better no doubt.

this is one of the things the 36 team euro cup does - play off in groups and then play knockout cup, bowl and shield competitions. Everyone gets a chance at the top table, Almost everyone gets competitive games and a chance of silverware. Mismatches are an issue tho.

A revamped second level tournament and even changes to the HC format are not without merit. I would love to see more pro / semi pro scots teams in european competition

The Great Aukster wrote:.... except the PRL are pushing the idea that an Anglo French competition in place of the HEC is just as commercial...

No-one from the PRL has made that claim.

TJ wrote:

The Amlin has no romance and is far too predictable - that's why it is floundering. Simply sprinkling a few more Rabo teams won't make it commercially attractive. It shouldn't be the rather disappointing slightly faded photocopy of the HEC but a totally different style of competition to spark interest.

A more interesting Amlin / tourney for the lessor teams would be better no doubt.

this is one of the things the 36 team euro cup does - play off in groups and then play knockout cup, bowl and shield competitions. Everyone gets a chance at the top table, Almost everyone gets competitive games and a chance of silverware. Mismatches are an issue tho.

A revamped second level tournament and even changes to the HC format are not without merit. I would love to see more pro / semi pro scots teams in european competition

I am not really a fan of Cup, Bowl, Plate style systems. That is encouraging teams to throw away the chance of scraping into the Cup/Bowl in order to stand a far better chance of winning a title by dropping down into the Bowl/Plate. And lets face it the first time a team have one poor game and end up playing a level below where they should we will all be shouting FIX.

I like the Idea of an Almin being a different cup, rather than just H-cup for poorer teams.

What about the drop down from H-cup to Almin.

To me it does two things, it adds big names to the Almin which increases intrest, 2nd it only increases intrest for later rounds, opening group stages are forgotten about.

What about an Almin that is a straight knock out?

after a few rounds maybe have H-cup teams (that didn't make Q-finals) ranked 13 to 20 drop in and next round H-cup ranked teams 9-12 drop in.
That way everyone except the h-cup quarter finalists will play in it.

Maybe droping H-cup teams in will only generate intrest in last few rounds, so just straight home and away knock out. (no H-cup drop ins?)

because the smaller teams will need more than the prob one game a year they would get for this Almin, have a 3rd teir cup, those that go out of the Almin between rounds 1-4 say, will go into the group stage of this cup,

Who cares!!

To be perfectly honest I have no interest in HC, Amlin, Rabo Direct. I enjoy Grass roots rugby - Rugby in its purest form - no greedy regions, clubs/owners, media companies.

Its about time theses people realise Rugby belongs to the players and supporters.

Maybe I have a simplistic view - so be it!

Professionalism in its current form has ruined Rugby Union!

Straight knock out is better in many ways for the fans and forces intesity and meaning into every game ....but all the clubs/regions/provinces hate it from a finacial and planning aspect. The TV companies arent great fans either diue to the possibility of big draws going out early (hence why cricket world cups have ridiculoulsy convoluted systems to ensure India play 2 billion pointless games)
It will never happen. The only people who would want it are the fans and maybe some players, and they are the ones who dont get a say.

jeff stones dad wrote:Who cares!!

To be perfectly honest I have no interest in HC, Amlin, Rabo Direct. I enjoy Grass roots rugby - Rugby in its purest form - no greedy regions, clubs/owners, media companies.

Its about time theses people realise Rugby belongs to the players and supporters.

Maybe I have a simplistic view - so be it!

Professionalism in its current form has ruined Rugby Union!

When did Rugby clubs become owned? Absolutely no need - clubs should stay clubs - owned by the members

The Amlin doesn't have to be a straight KO Cup competition to be more interesting.

1. Not all teams who miss out on HEC qualification should get into the Amlin. If participation was on merit it would increase it's perceived worth.
2. There should be some sort of regional pools to minimise club costs and maximise support. These could also include a few of the best lower division sides.
3. The HEC teams shouldn't enter it at all as a safety net after failing in the HEC - that sends the message that it is a consolation competion, and there will be enough good teams already through to the KO stages.
4. Both finalists should qualify for the next year's HEC not just the winner. There is no need to give the HEC winner an automatic qualification.
5. There should be other means of ensuring qualification for the Amlin, such as winning the LV or the B&I Cup.


In short it needs to become a proving ground for winners rather than a receptacle for losers.

The Great Aukster wrote:4. Both finalists should qualify for the next year's HEC not just the winner. There is no need to give the HEC winner an automatic qualification.

Unghhhh?

I assume you mean no need to give the Amlin winner entry to next years HEC?
The reason this has been propossed is to offer a bigger push to try and win the thing, theres an actual prize on offer (for teams who arent garaunteed HEC entry anyway). The same reason the RFU currently nominates an English winner of the LV instead of a mid table Jeff team

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:4. Both finalists should qualify for the next year's HEC not just the winner. There is no need to give the HEC winner an automatic qualification.

Unghhhh?

I assume you mean no need to give the Amlin winner entry to next years HEC?
The reason this has been propossed is to offer a bigger push to try and win the thing, theres an actual prize on offer (for teams who arent garaunteed HEC entry anyway). The same reason the RFU currently nominates an English winner of the LV instead of a mid table Jeff team

No, I mean both Amlin finalists should gain automatic entry to the next year's HEC.

If a team wins the HEC, what's the point of giving them free qualification the next year? It isn't an incentive to win the Cup and more than likely they will qualify anyway, so all that will happen is that their victory will gain entry for their closest mate. Connacht getting in on the back of Leinster victories seems to have been a particular bone of contention, so it is much easier to give that place to the Amlin runner-up. There could be no argument that they didn't deserve the place on merit and again it would add extra interest to the Amlin semi-finals.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:4. Both finalists should qualify for the next year's HEC not just the winner. There is no need to give the HEC winner an automatic qualification.

Unghhhh?

I assume you mean no need to give the Amlin winner entry to next years HEC?
The reason this has been propossed is to offer a bigger push to try and win the thing, theres an actual prize on offer (for teams who arent garaunteed HEC entry anyway). The same reason the RFU currently nominates an English winner of the LV instead of a mid table Jeff team

No, I mean both Amlin finalists should gain automatic entry to the next year's HEC.

If a team wins the HEC, what's the point of giving them free qualification the next year? It isn't an incentive to win the Cup and more than likely they will qualify anyway, so all that will happen is that their victory will gain entry for their closest mate. Connacht getting in on the back of Leinster victories seems to have been a particular bone of contention, so it is much easier to give that place to the Amlin runner-up. There could be no argument that they didn't deserve the place on merit and again it would add extra interest to the Amlin semi-finals.

Or quite possibly it could lead focusing on the HEC at the cost of the league. For example if the Cardiff Blues or Sale were in a position to get through their group in the HEC and were languishing in the Rabo/Jeff they could decide that they are very-unlikely to qualify through the league, but only need to put in three big matches and could still qualify for the HEC next season, and in that case rest up their team in the Rabo/Jeff in order to qualify.

After all this is the sort of arguement that supposedly caused the who stuff to hit the fan anyhow.

I don't follow that ScarletSpiderman, do you mean instead of making knock out round in H-cup to aim instead to drop to Almin and try to win it instead?

Kingshu -
With automatic qualification for the HEC winners, a team with good players but no depth could solely focus on the HEC - get out of their group and then only have to win three games to qualify for the following season! Winning the Cup isn't easy but if they have no depth that might be a better strategy than being mediocre in both League and Cup.

This is broadly the same gripe that the T14 and the AP have with the P12. Namely it is too easy for the teams to qualify and therefore they have an advantage when it comes to winning the Cup.

Kingshu wrote:I don't follow that ScarletSpiderman, do you mean instead of making knock out round in H-cup to aim instead to drop to Almin and try to win it instead?

Yeah if there were three tiers Cup/Bowl/Plate then a team in that could possibly make the Cup knockouts, as 8th seed, with a bonus point win in the last game, may consider just picking up a non-bonus point win and drop to the Bowl as top seeds, and thus making it far easier to win that competition (and get the money/extra glory support etc). I would really hope that would not happen but it could quite easily be the case.

Also with regards to the HEC winners getting automatic place, I think The Great Aukster pretty much summed up my thoughts spot on (and sadly a hell of a lot better than I could).