Greatest: Round 2: Choose your 12

Rules and context here:
https://www.606v2.com/t38622-the-greatest-introduction-the-rules

Previous threads here:
https://www.606v2.com/t38819-greatest-round-2-choose-your-15#1753473
https://www.606v2.com/t38887-greatest-round-2-choose-your-11-14
https://www.606v2.com/t38898-greatest-round-2-choose-your-13

Brief:
• Vote for one player only in the inside centre position.
• Votes are cancellable so in the event that it seems the votes for the 13 candidate are going in a certain direction, feel free to change your choice if you feel another player would complement the outside centre better.
• It can be assumed that players in the amateur era would have been just as dominant vis a vis their historical peers if they had followed professional conditioning programmes.

Your shortlist (in no particular order):

1. Mike Gibson
British & Irish Lions – 12 caps, Barbarians – 9 caps, Ireland – 69 caps

To be at the peak of your profession for a short period of time is commendable. To be first choice at international level for fully 16 years is unprecedented and for those who didn't see him play, it is very hard to generalise about his talents in a way that does justice to just how good Cameron Michael Henderson Gibson was. It is even more difficult to come up with a reason why he was so far ahead of his generation in terms of physicality, conditioning and skill. Suffice to say, Gibson is arguably the finest Irish player of all time.

Accomplished in the 10 or 12 jerseys, Gibson's ability to mesh a backline together was years ahead of its time. He made his Irish debut in 1964, and amassed 69 international caps, a mark that held until lock Malcolm O'Kelly surpassed it 26 years after Gibson's retirement.

Gibson was born and educated in Belfast, and represented Campbell College before moving to study at Cambridge University, where he donned the famous blue. Gibson's versatility led to questions over his best position, but in truth his sublime handling skills, pinpoint kicking game and tactical brilliance made him a prime candidate for greatness in the centre and at outside half.

Gibson made five British Lions tours between 1966 and 1977, a number only equalled by fellow Irish great Willie John McBride. During the 1968 tour of South Africa, Gibson became the first ever replacement in rugby history when he replaced the injured Barry John during the Pretoria test match (incredibly for such a demanding schedule, he played in 11 of the final 13 matches in John's absence). On the 1971 Lions tour of New Zealand, Gibson lined up alongside Gareth Edwards, Barry John, David Duckham and John Dawes in one of the most potent midfields ever assembled. With the imagination of John complemented perfectly by Gibson's propensity to open up space with his spectacular line-breaking ability, the Lions took home their first and only tour win on New Zealand soil. New Zealand fans were criticised in their own press for cheering Gibson throughout the match.

Gibson's final game in the green jersey came in the second test of Ireland's tour of Australia in 1979. Ireland won the game and the series, and the 36 year old Gibson hung up his boots. His midfield partnerships on Lions tours would not look out of place in an all time XV, and it was often his ability to gel the different styles of play into a coherent backs division that brought them such great success.

While not a bulky, crash ball operator as with many new centres, Gibson was a modern player in all senses of the word. His understanding of angles and his ability to release the ball into space could unlock even the toughest of defences and he surely would have enjoyed the challenge of a modern day rush defence. What he could have achieved in a modern professional conditioning programme is anyone's guess.

He has been awarded an MBE for his services to the game and was one of the first 15 inductees into the inaugural International Rugby Hall of Fame. In 2011, he was made a member of the International Rugby Board Hall of Fame.

Sample footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibDNBjoel4s

2. Tim Horan
Australia – 80 caps

Few have had a more glittering career than Horan, who scored 30 tries for the Wallabies and took home two Rugby World Cup winners medals in 1991 and 1999. He formed one of the most perfect centre partnerships in history with Jason Little (they met when they were 13 years old) and latterly Daniel Herbert and with his superb all-round game carved out a reputation as one of the greatest centres to have played the game.

He made his international debut against New Zealand in 1989 and would go on to make his Rugby World Cup bow in 1991 where he scored four tries as the Wallabies secured the game's biggest prize for the first time.

He battled back from a career-threatening knee injury in 1994 that sidelined him for a year to make his second Rugby World Cup appearance in 1995. But it was at the 1999 event that he arguably reached his peak, scoring two tries including the fastest ever in the tournament - after just 92 seconds - in the opening game against Romania. His stand-out performances saw him named the Player of the Tournament (winning himself a year's worth of Guinness for his troubles). Despite suffering from severe food poisoning the night before the match, he hit his best form against South Africa in the semis and was unplayable in the midfield as the Wallabies lodged a famous 27-22 overtime win

He captained his country for the first time in 1996 and made his final appearance in the Green and Gold in 2000 against Argentina in Brisbane.

He played his Super Rugby for the Queensland Reds and brought the curtain down on his domestic career with Saracens in England. In 2009 he was made a Member of the Order of Australia and was named as a Classic Wallabies Statesman by the Australian Rugby Union.

Sample footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYxfeSONJ_0

3. Will Greenwood
British & Irish Lions – 2 caps, England – 55 caps

Players wanting good examples of taking the knocks and persevering could do much worse than look at the career of Will Greenwood.

His path to greatness with England was not a straightforward one, with several false starts in his career halting his progress even if the natural ability was always apparent. Greenwood began his career with Harlequins in London, having moved there from Lancashire to work as a trader with Midland Global Markets (now HSBC). His early career changed with the advent of professionalism, as he left Harlequins for Leicester in 1996. He helped them on their way to a Pilkington Cup victory and a European Cup final before being selected as the uncapped player for the 1997 British Lions tour to South Africa.

Greenwood's tour would end in near disaster as he swallowed his tongue following a heavy collision during a tour match. Greenwood was unable to take part in any test matches on the tour, but was rewarded with his first England cap by Clive Woodward the following season.

Greenwood was a hugely dangerous presence in any midfield, with an uncanny knack for crossing the whitewash. Deceptively quick and rangy, Greenwood was able to sense space forming in an opposition backline, often exploiting it by breaking the line himself or freeing the arms to release a team-mate. His introduction into the England team coincided with the beginning of their rise to greatness that culminated in the 2003 Rugby World Cup – his partnership with Jerry Guscott forming a pivotal part of the team. There was first disappointment at the 1999 World Cup, when Jannie De Beer's five drop goals ended England's involvement at the quarter final stage.

The following season Greenwood returned to Harlequins, securing the Tetley's Bitter Cup and victory over Narbonne in the final of the European Shield in his first season. Greenwood was then a part of the England teams that took home Six Nations championships in 2000 and 2001. It was with the Grand Slam in 2003 that Greenwood and his England team began their ascent into the history books.

It was at the 2003 World Cup that Greenwood's career undoubtedly peaked. His tries in crucial fixtures against Wales and South Africa paved the way for England's march to the final. During the latter stages of the tournament Greenwood chose to fly back to London to be with his wife, who was experiencing difficulties in her pregnancy. His dilemma was well documented in the press, with his willingness to give up personal glory reflecting the personality that won him so many fans amongst players and supporters.

Fortunately, all was well with his wife and child and Greenwood returned ahead of the final. Images of Greenwood jumping for joy following Jonny Wilkinson's wining drop goal were broadcast around the world, a glorious end to what could have been a tragic story. Greenwood returned to England with a winners medal and the joint top try-scoring honour.

Following the World Cup Greenwood was appointed as vice captain under Lawrence Dallaglio, and played all of England's 2004 Six Nations games. He won his final England cap in November 2004 against Australia, and while injury ruled him out of the 2005 Six Nations he was selected for his third Lions tour in 2005.

He currently works as an analyst for Sky Sports where he has the unique distinction amongst his colleagues of actually knowing what he's talking about.

Sample footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDKXCJ0Es70

I still don't get how horan is short listed at 12, but no little at 13? Surely it is th midfield combination that is synergistic and not the individuals.

Look at horan/little or nonu/smith or Taylor/Stanley ?

I agree in part TPV (I think that Horan/Little and Bunce/Little are the best combos ever), but this exercise is all about individuals people like rather than combinations, necessarily. Nonetheless, I have encourage our fellow posters to think about lock and centre combinations. Whether they will or not is happily not up to me.

The most capped centre combination in test rugby is Darcy and O'Driscoll and I wouldn't have Darcy over any of the players listed above.

Nick 'Farr' Jones rated Horan the greatest Aussie player, ahead of Eales, Campese, himself, Norton-Knight etc.

Casartelli wrote:Nick 'Farr' Jones rated Horan the greatest Aussie player, ahead of Eales, Campese, himself, Norton-Knight etc.

Surely not ahead of Parks?

Well I can't vote for gibson as I never saw him play. I suppose Horan will be my vote.

Biltong wrote:Well I can't vote for gibson as I never saw him play. I suppose Horan will be my vote.

Unfortunately with any of these polls you right off almost anyone who didn't play within the last ten years, fifteen at a push. As soon as you mention a player from more than twenty years ago some snide little twit disrespectfully accuses you of having "rose tinted glasses" on.

Amazing how the game has changed. Players past used to be remembered with reverie and celebrated for their skill and endeavour.

At least you have the decency to say that you didn't see him play so therefor couldn't comment.

Gibson joined the 74 Lions tour half way through from what i remember. He was a fine player. Heres a bit of youtube Bill, to show you what you missed. Narrated by Bill McClaren

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibDNBjoel4s

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:Well I can't vote for gibson as I never saw him play. I suppose Horan will be my vote.

Unfortunately with any of these polls you right off almost anyone who didn't play within the last ten years, fifteen at a push. As soon as you mention a player from more than twenty years ago some snide little twit disrespectfully accuses you of having "rose tinted glasses" on.

Amazing how the game has changed. Players past used to be remembered with reverie and celebrated for their skill and endeavour.

At least you have the decency to say that you didn't see him play so therefor couldn't comment.

Gibson joined the 74 Lions tour half way through from what i remember. He was a fine player. Heres a bit of youtube Bill, to show you what you missed. Narrated by Bill McClaren

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibDNBjoel4s

Cheers Maes, I just did my best backline and explained there exactly the reasons why it is so difficult to select the best, hence in the end I called it my favourite back line, as it is impossble to select players for me at least, that I have never seen play.

Aye I just had a look I am working mine out with a pen and paper and ill get back to you... But I think you got it statistically nailed first off.

It's just a fact of this being an internet poll that the vast majority of selections will be from the last 15-20 years. Accusing people of having rose or sepia-tinted glasses on for selecting their favorite players is just trivial however as everyone will remember players they liked as better than they were, and the reverse for ones they disliked. That's the beauty of memory!

The argument that the exaggeration of a players skill gets greater as time goes on is a myth IMO. If anything the opposite will sadly happen as fewer people will remember players with time.

For the sake of this I went for Tim Horan. A very complete player and the perfect foil for BOD in my favoured line-up in these polls.

I only really saw Gibson during the 1977 Lions side- the last of his five- but even then against the week sides his skills were obvious. I think he was one of the mid weekers that should have played the tests. But 5 Lions tours must mean he was a pretty good player. Generally faster for a centre and ran like a wing.

Would love to go with Gibson as report has him as being superb but its before my time so i cant in all honesty vote for him. Whilst i like Greenwood, Horan is the clear winner from those two.

Taylorman wrote:I only really saw Gibson during the 1977 Lions side- the last of his five- but even then against the week sides his skills were obvious. I think he was one of the mid weekers that should have played the tests. But 5 Lions tours must mean he was a pretty good player. Generally faster for a centre and ran like a wing.

In '71 they took Gibson as back up to John at Flyhalf. Multifaceted bloke. Fast as a wing as you say and a game reader of international flyhalf ability. The partnership he and the elusive John Dawes forged was sublime by any measure of time.