Who starts at 3 for the Lions

Now we all now how important a position TH prop can be for teams, but who is in the driving seat for the Lions number 3 slot? I appreciate that there is a long way to go, but assuming all the runners and riders remain fit, who do we see as the British and Irish Lions premier TH.

Adam Jones: Tremendous reputation as a scrummaging prop, pretty much immovable when at the top of his game. 12 months ago he would have been an absolute shoe-in, but after his recent injury, is he showing signs of decline? I thought Healy gave him some serious issues at the weekend and he didn't seem to have much impact in the loose.

Dan Cole: Scrummaging is top draw these days and seems very durable. Brilliant over the ball, especially for a prop. Makes his tackles although could probably do more as a carrier.

Mike Ross: Another who know his way round a scrum and gave Jenkins no end of trouble last weekend. But, was that a case of Jenkins being short of game time or has Ross developed into a destructive force rather than a solid TH? Does he do enough around the park? With Healy and Best likely to be starting at 1 & 2, does this give Ross an advantage in having a front three from one nation?

For me, and on balance, I would start with Cole. With all three at their absolute best, then Jones is probably the premier scrummaging TH, but Cole has closed that gap considerably over the last couple of years. I think Cole, although always a solid scrummager, has really upped this part of his game since Thomas Domingo gave him a beasting a few years back in Paris. Out of the three SH teams to take on, Australia have the least powerful scrum so I think Cole's extra work around the park gives him the edge over Adam Jones. There is a good chance that the Lions won't be playing a traditional 7 and with this in mind, the ability to turnover ball that Cole has shown recently could be invaluable.

Thoughts?

If Ross goes it's as a dirt tracker only,he is a capable scrummager but isn't in the same league as Jone or Cole imo.

If the team was picked right now I'd go for Cole but Jones is only back from injury so has plenty of time to regain form and challenge for the shirt.I wouldn't have any worries about who plays (assuming Jones regains match fitness and form) because they're both quality.

Currently, Cole as first choice, Adam Jones as backup.

I dont think its fair to say Healey gave Adam any problems on the wknd in the scrum. It was Ross mullering Jenkins that was the problem for wales. (imo Jenkins shouldnt even be in the squad)When James came on at LH the scrum settled down for us. As you say though, Jones wasnt at his best in that game and I think you can tell hes playing his way back into top form/fitness at the moment.

Cole though has consistently impressed me over the last year, and at his age, hopefully he has years left at this level and he'll only get better.

Mike Ross was solid at the setpiece but again (like Adam) not very visible in the loose.

I think all of the TH's did well on the weekend to be fair.

Dan Cole: Scrummaging is top draw these days and seems very durable. Brilliant over the ball, especially for a prop. Makes his tackles although could probably do more as a carrier.

Why?? Isnt he doing enough that his scrummaging is top class...his tackling is quality and his breakdown work is as good as some top 7's.

He has enough to focus on...let the back 5 worry about getting hold of the ball.
Similarly Jones...i want my props doing the basics well...ie Scrum like a tank ...and tackle. Breakdown work is a nice added bonus.

We're in good shape with these to lads.

Comfort wrote:

I dont think its fair to say Healey gave Adam any problems on the wknd in the scrum. It was Ross mullering Jenkins that was the problem for wales.

It's a fair point mate. As I said, Ross certainly had the nudge on Jenkins which would have put more pressure on Jones. Healy has come on leaps and bounds in the scrum, and it did look like he gave Jones more to think about than in previous seasons although I would certainly concede that Jenkins troubles would have had a bearing on this.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Dan Cole: Scrummaging is top draw these days and seems very durable. Brilliant over the ball, especially for a prop. Makes his tackles although could probably do more as a carrier.

Why?? Isnt he doing enough that his scrummaging is top class...his tackling is quality and his breakdown work is as good as some top 7's.

He has enough to focus on...let the back 5 worry about getting hold of the ball.
Similarly Jones...i want my props doing the basics well...ie Scrum like a tank ...and tackle. Breakdown work is a nice added bonus.

We're in good shape with these to lads.

It's a fair enough point, I was just giving my appraisal of where they are at as players. It is a tight call between Jones and Cole so little things can make a big difference.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Comfort wrote:

I dont think its fair to say Healey gave Adam any problems on the wknd in the scrum. It was Ross mullering Jenkins that was the problem for wales.

It's a fair point mate. As I said, Ross certainly had the nudge on Jenkins which would have put more pressure on Jones. Healy has come on leaps and bounds in the scrum, and it did look like he gave Jones more to think about than in previous seasons although I would certainly concede that Jenkins troubles would have had a bearing on this.

Im with you, I think Ross did an absolute job on Jenkins. Healy vs Jones was a good battle that was settled as a competition in its own right by the fact Ross was taking Jenkins apart on the other side!

Jenkins has never been a good scrummager, when Paul James came on he absolutely mullered Ross who then went off injured and iff you think Healy gave Adam any trouble apart from the one scrum when Adam took him very low and Healy collapsed, that Poite wrongly penalised Adam for you are sadly mistaken, if there is any Welshman in the Lions team it will be Adam.

I think it should be Dan Cole then probably Adam Jones. Mike Ross isnt quite as good as either of them plus Id be quite happy to wrap him in cotton wool and keep him in Ireland for the tour.

Here are some threads to add to your reading on the subject.

https://www.606v2.com/t39306-lion-head-to-heads?highlight=head+to+head

https://www.606v2.com/t26794-tight-head-prop-choices-of-the-home-nations?highlight=Lions+choices+number+3

Cole.

Thoughts?

With Healy and Best likely to be starting at 1 & 2

I THINK that is a huge overstatement. I THINK a good scrummager at loose head is also required. I THINK there are better loose heads than Healy.

Glas a du wrote:

Thoughts?

With Healy and Best likely to be starting at 1 & 2

I THINK that is a huge overstatement. I THINK a good scrummager at loose head is also required. I THINK there are better loose heads than Healy.

Fair enough, but who?

Who are the other outstanding candidates at 1 & 2 based on current form. I don't think there are any.

Healy is a good scrummager though. By the way have you forgotten who the Lions are playing? One of the worst scrummaging teams around. Cian Healy is a shoe-in to start.

Dont understimate the Aussie scrum now....it might not be a major weapon...but at full strength it'll be alright...and i wouldnt expect it to get hammered by any means....

You can't really look at "who starts at 3".

The Front row are a unit and have to compliment each other's strengths. Take last year for example. Mears started at hooker and Vickery got mullered by the beast due to the lack of cohesion in the front row.

Look at what happened in the 3rd test when he had Ford and Rees providing a platform for him to attack from in the Scrum... very differant outcome.

For me the front row of Healy Best and Cole has a nice ring to it. With Healy attacking from the loose side and Cole Steadying the scrum from the tighthead you'll get that Ozzie frontrow popping up like a warm pop tart.

I would expect the other front row tourists to be Grant, A Jones, Corbs, and another hooker and another loosie who will hopefully step up to the plate in the next few weeks....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Dont understimate the Aussie scrum now....it might not be a major weapon...but at full strength it'll be alright...and i wouldnt expect it to get hammered by any means....

Exactly so I wouldnt be particularly worried about having Healy at loosehead.

As it stands I full expect to see:

01 Healy
02 Best
03 Cole

01 Court
02 Best
03 Cole

06 Healy

OK. You are thinking like Rob Howley.

"Right, the Irish front row aren't the best scrummagers, so we won't pick our strongest pack"

If there is one aspect where the Lions can really hurt Australia, that's in the scrum. James is the best scrummager and whilst not as attractive (in fact he looks like Igor form the old films) flashy or as good as popping up to score as Healy, his tight work and defence are excellent.

Now if you tell me you'd rather have a David Sole type of player then fine, Heally and Bevington fit that bill. But then it's a matter of preference, horses for courses so to speak.

rodders wrote:01 Court
02 Best
03 Cole

06 Healy

Did you get laid last night or what? Youre like a kid in a sweetshop mun!

"We're playind England Saturday! Ooh, I could crush a grape!"

How many Heino winners medals does James have?......

red_stag wrote:As it stands I full expect to see:

01 Healy
02 Best
03 Cole

100% agree. Also worth remembering that Cole has decent stamina for a TH and frequently used to play the full 80 for England before the extra prop was allowed in internationals. If the game allows it we could then have a bench of James/Grant/Corbiserio/Sheridan (delete as required), a bigger scrumaging hooker (Hartley, Ford, Rees if one of them rediscovers their top form) and Jones. The Aussies may now have a strengthened front row but there is no way they can call on replacements like that for the final 25 minutes. However, I would only advocate swapping the front row on mass if the game situation justifies it, not just for the sake of it. Hate it when players get replaced for what seems like pre-game decision.

rodders wrote:How many Heino winners medals does James have?......

Are 8 year olds allowed on here. Before you start I don't care if your Dad is bigger than my Dad

dragonbreath wrote:

rodders wrote:How many Heino winners medals does James have?......

Are 8 year olds allowed on here. Before you start I don't care if your Dad is bigger than my Dad

The humour intended in that post must have went over your head.

When was the last time a home nations side smashed AUS upfront???

We all say we can destroy them in the scrum... but they never get totally done over and haven't done since 07 in the RWC. I recall the same thing being said in 09 and we got over confident and fielded a front row consisting of mighty mouse Lee Mears in the 1st test and got smashed.

They fend off better scrummaging nations SA & NZ 4 times a year without embarassment.

Firstly in the Wales Ireland match their were 12 scrums... and over 200 rucks.

So ruck work is just as important.

Get a guy who is decent at scrumtime and will hold his own and then choose a player who has very good ruck skills.

The answer is Cole. Jones edges it on the scrum work but Cole on the overall. Ross.... needs to up his fitness if he wants to tour.

Ross shouldn't tour IMO. Lacks the fitness, lacks the all around game. I'd even rather a guy like Euan Murray who would be a great dirt track tighthead (also no Lions games on Sundays).

Dan Cole, Adam Jones and Euan Murray in that order.

Cole test starter
Jones on the bench
Ross mid week team

Murray flown in mid way through tour due to injuries

All four to have test time

Murray was very disappointing in 09... it was his shirt to lose and he dropped from 1st to 3rd... never seemed up for it.

fa0019 wrote:When was the last time a home nations side smashed AUS upfront???

We all say we can destroy them in the scrum... but they never get totally done over and haven't done since 07 in the RWC. I recall the same thing being said in 09 and we got over confident and fielded a front row consisting of mighty mouse Lee Mears in the 1st test and got smashed.

Thats easy Ireland dominated their scrum the last time they played them at the WC. Would you not agree?

fa0019 wrote:When was the last time a home nations side smashed AUS upfront???

We all say we can destroy them in the scrum... but they never get totally done over and haven't done since 07 in the RWC. I recall the same thing being said in 09 and we got over confident and fielded a front row consisting of mighty mouse Lee Mears in the 1st test and got smashed.

They fend off better scrummaging nations SA & NZ 4 times a year without embarassment.

Firstly in the Wales Ireland match their were 12 scrums... and over 200 rucks.

So ruck work is just as important.

Get a guy who is decent at scrumtime and will hold his own and then choose a player who has very good ruck skills.

The answer is Cole. Jones edges it on the scrum work but Cole on the overall. Ross.... needs to up his fitness if he wants to tour.

Cole I agree is in pole position at present, he's also a very consistent performer so should stay there.

On Aus getting mashed up front, 2010 summer tour in both test they got pulverised (2 penalty tries in the first test) by Payne, Mears and Cole I think.

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Cole

16. James
17. Youngs
18. Jones

That would be my starting/reserve front row after last weekends games (sorry scots )

I think Ryan Grant or Alex Corbisiero would be a better alternative then James.

FA, I'd prefer James/Corbs, but to be honest I'd be happy with any of them on the bench (or Rhys Gill - who didnt even make the welsh squad bizarrely!)

Comfort wrote:1. Healy
2. Best
3. Cole

16. James
17. Youngs
18. Jones

That would be my starting/reserve front row after last weekends games (sorry scots )

That looks like it could almost be the Lions selection. Hartley might edge Youngs out if he get's the start against Ireland and continues.

I don't think so. The Aussies would get Hartley sent off in a jiffy.

I wouldn't count Hibbard out of the picture (for the bench), if he gets a decent chance this 6N.

Glas a du wrote:I don't think so. The Aussies would get Hartley sent off in a jiffy.

Let's not bring Jiffy into this...

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Glas a du wrote:I don't think so. The Aussies would get Hartley sent off in a jiffy.

Let's not bring Jiffy into this...

Indeed. Cif was such a poor choice of replacement I feel.

Let's all be honest and frank with one another here, hooker is not somewhere we've got a stand-out 'world class' player in anywhere in the NH. Best is undoubtedly the best so far but it's not a position of true quality like TH, LH and the back-row are for the Lions.

How many Hookers worldwide are better than Best? And how many of those don't play for South Africa?

Budgie

ChequeredJersey wrote:How many Hookers worldwide are better than Best? And how many of those don't play for South Africa?

Chequred, regardless whether the top hookers seem to play for SA or not the point stands. Kevan Mealamu I would have ahead of Best, excepting his last performance and I would find it a hard choice to take Best over Stephen Moore certainly. Polota-Nau also offers a heavy carrying game and good park work, not that i'd say he was clearly ahead of Best.

By my reckoning i'd be logging Bismark, Strauss, Mealamu and Stephen Moore ahead of Best. Best is an excellent hooker but it's not a position of relative strength for the Lions.

Well I know who it isn't going to be - His Holiness the Very Reverend Murray.

Cole and Jones with a L/head who can swap sides if required

fa0019 wrote:When was the last time a home nations side smashed AUS upfront???

We all say we can destroy them in the scrum... but they never get totally done over and haven't done since 07 in the RWC.

Australia v England, June 2010, Perth.
Australia demolished in the scrum conceding two penalty tries, but good enough in the backs to win easily.

Start with Adam.Bring on Cole after 60 mins when the game loosens up

bedfordwelsh wrote:Cole and Jones with a L/head who can swap sides if required

Well that's likely to be Paul James then isn't it. I don't think Lions TH is much of debate seeing as everyone agrees on Cole and Jones. The back-row and back three however...

I'm not too sure about Jones he looks unfit to me, is he back eating after 10pm again seeing as Gatland isn't around the Welsh camp to watch him.