How Many Caps Does It Take To Be Considered Experienced

The reason I ask this is we yet again seem to be getting the same drivel coming out of the Welsh camp, including the line its a young side they will learn from this get better etc etc.

Well out of the starting XV that took to the field (yes they were on field in 1st half believe it or not) against Ireland on Saturday only 4 have 20 caps or less and only 2 of those 4 (Coombs and Shingler) have 10 or less.

So whilst they may be young in terms of age most of them can surely now be considered experienced International players.

Think you need a couple of full seasons of 6N, so that you've played in every imaginable hostile atmosphere, plus a match or two against SH opposition, the odd one away from home. I'm assuming that these are starts, rather than 15 minutes as a replacement. Say 12-15 caps in all.

CC,

So then most of the Welsh team that took to the field all bar I would say Coombs, Shingler and Biggar have experienced that criteria then.

Probably at least 15 caps in my view.

Dan Cole, most experienced player starting with 36 caps and he looks like he's been at it for over a decade. Conversely, Tim Payne had 22 debut caps and never looked like getting another!

When you compare our so called young side to the England XV it makes a mockery of Howley and the players.

Only 9 of their starting XV were in double figures and only 3 (Cole, B Youngs and Ashton) have 20 or more caps.

Everyone is different. Some players seem to take to internationals like a duck to water - others dont. Cole looked the part from day one, but then it doesnt always work out, I thought the same about Strettle

On the other hand we have Parling. A year ago he was only a stopgap until someone else turned up or Lawes got fit again. Now hes in a lot of Lions team selections.

This is a good topic as the probable Ireland team for Sunday has over 500 caps compared to 250 in the England team... In fact the whole back line has less caps than Drico has by himself... But yet guys like Barritt, Farrell and Youngs are all experienced players.

Wales don't lack experience, bw. Perhaps a little variety behind the scrum, buut then they've mucked about the guy I regard as one of the most talented footballers in Britain for the past few years (Hook), so they can only really blame themselves there. That goes back long before Howley got his hands on the levers of power.....

Ok experience maybe the wrong word but when then should these young players have learned by their mistakes, 10 20 30 caps etc.

I am all for giving guys a fair crack but if they haven't learnt after a certain while then how much time do you give them?

Well sometimes, they can look so much like a deer in the headlights after just a cap or two (Chris Martin of England or Arthur Emyr of Wales, back in the day) that there's no sense in flogging a dead horse. A good coach should know whether it's worth persevering with a player and some are slow burners. Beyond 20 caps, and I would have thought that you're allowing your optimism and faith to run away with you.

When you consider Welsh greats Phil Bennet and Bobby Windsor didnt get beyond 30 caps each, the we only have a handful of caps defence doesnt really hold up.

In their day, that took seven years to accumulate. If you make your debut in the year before a World Cup now, you can just about get there in two, what with AIs, pre-RWC warm-ups, summer tours and all that jazz. Different world, which is partly why you saw so many one or two cap wonders back then. Basically, in the NH it was all about the 5 Nations and the Lions, and if you weren't cutting it immediately, you were disposed of.

Wales had better players, so it didn't often happen to them (although anyone remember Roger Blyth and Clive Shell?). England, on the other hand - I lost count of the number of players with 5 caps or fewer before Geoff Cooke arrived at the end of the 80s to bring a bit of sanity to proceedings.

Difficult to quantify experience though...

Take Andy Powell for example, was pretty old and had played around different regions countries before int rugby came calling, he took to it like a duck to water and found his dynamism made up for any lack of experience at the top table. He however was too dull to keep developing his game and became easily overcome.

Then you look at Patchell at the Blues, played a pre season at Bath before emerging like a 30 yr old guiding his pack around the park.

Different players look experienced at different times, and caps don't give you a real picture of how much exposure to top class rugby and the little lessons that come with it a player has had.

For me Coombs looked like one of our most experienced players saturday, and Jenkins one of our greenest! But there are different situations surrounding each player.

When people mention our young team it's because they are still pretty young, our back row especially, when you compare our back row to the best in the world we are very young, and for me this is showing at present.

We can debate what is meant by experienced or the number of caps, but Bedford make a good point. By any criteria this Welsh team is experienced. The core of players have seen plenty of international action. England by example are far less experienced.

Everytime someone in the Welsh camp opens their mouth they can barely get the words out for the space their foot is taking. Credibility is dented with every interview.

Surely the lack of experience in the Welsh squad is not so much experience of playing as experience of winning?

Poorfour wrote:Surely the lack of experience in the Welsh squad is not so much experience of playing as experience of winning?

Poor,

With the exception of Coombs and Biggar all of the starting XV against Ireland played some part in last seasons GS so they have experienced being in a winning environment with Wales.

My view is 15 to 20 caps. Sure they would still be learning but do you ever stop? Accumulating that many should be an indicator of ability and willingness to develop. From there on a player should just get better mainly in the streetwise sense.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Surely the lack of experience in the Welsh squad is not so much experience of playing as experience of winning?

Poor,

With the exception of Coombs and Biggar all of the starting XV against Ireland played some part in last seasons GS so they have experienced being in a winning environment with Wales.

I was being facetious. But there is a serious point - I know that many of the current squad have tasted 6N success, but the combination of repeated (if often narrow) failure against the SH coupled with the nature of the loss to Ireland must be weighing heavily on the players.

Lancaster seems to have the knack of using his squad's experience - win or lose - to help them improve, and they now have in the bank the knowledge of what they can do when they put it all together. Wales, by contrast, seem to be being worn down by the accumulation of near misses.

Poorfour
Can't argue with that. There is not much between the teams in the 6Ns and we all know how important those top few inches are. The Welsh team is in a dark place now, but one win could make a huge difference.

offload wrote:Poorfour
Can't argue with that. There is not much between the teams in the 6Ns and we all know how important those top few inches are. The Welsh team is in a dark place now, but one win could make a huge difference.

With England's win over the All Blacks, they seems to be a gulf opening up between England and the other teams, just as was the case after England thrashed Australia in 1988.

You're not having much luck today at annoying people, are you, gboycottnut? Your writing, as a great man once observed, is both good and original, but the part that is good is not original and the part that is original is not good.

When you discover one of originality, humour or articulacy, I'm sure people will hop up and down with rage to suit you.

captain carrantuohil wrote:In their day, that took seven years to accumulate. If you make your debut in the year before a World Cup now, you can just about get there in two, what with AIs, pre-RWC warm-ups, summer tours and all that jazz. Different world, which is partly why you saw so many one or two cap wonders back then. Basically, in the NH it was all about the 5 Nations and the Lions, and if you weren't cutting it immediately, you were disposed of.

Wales had better players, so it didn't often happen to them (although anyone remember Roger Blyth and Clive Shell?). England, on the other hand - I lost count of the number of players with 5 caps or fewer before Geoff Cooke arrived at the end of the 80s to bring a bit of sanity to proceedings.

Agree there about England even in the 1970's when many considered English rugby to be in the dark ages. Despite the frequency in which players kept getting chopped and changed from the England team, there were still enough talent in the English game in that period which would have helped formed a very decent England team but if only the selectors had remained consistent in the selection of the playing XV.

Under the present system a player could accumalate say 40 caps and not start or even complete a single matchIt really is a matter of ability or even luck and some are shooting stars.
Players on Club form can`t be ignored then after a season or so underperform.Danny Cipriani ,Luke Macalister,and even Hosae Gear come to mind.
As an example Isao Toeva before his enforced retirement was a hugely talented player they tell me.At Super level thrown in the deep end at 19 but cursed with the utility tag and nagging injuries he accquired a good number of caps.
BUT hardly ever started a match for the All Blacks most of his caps being offthe bench.
Young players coming into the Squad will certainly learn from more senior players BUT only on the field can they express themselves.
For example i rememember Richard Loe at prop just been capped for the AB`s
thought he knew it all.But in a Provincial Match his opposite number was Gary Knight several years older and a veteran.
Loe was given the business,Knight hammered him at every Scrum experience was everything.PLus a Prop gains his best strength around the 30 mark then goes on to about 37 .

gboycottnut wrote:

offload wrote:Poorfour
Can't argue with that. There is not much between the teams in the 6Ns and we all know how important those top few inches are. The Welsh team is in a dark place now, but one win could make a huge difference.

With England's win over the All Blacks, they seems to be a gulf opening up between England and the other teams, just as was the case after England thrashed Australia in 1988.

Wish that were true. I wouldn't be so nervous about the Ireland game then!

bedfordwelsh wrote:The reason I ask this is we yet again seem to be getting the same drivel coming out of the Welsh camp, including the line its a young side they will learn from this get better etc etc.

Well out of the starting XV that took to the field (yes they were on field in 1st half believe it or not) against Ireland on Saturday only 4 have 20 caps or less and only 2 of those 4 (Coombs and Shingler) have 10 or less.

So whilst they may be young in terms of age most of them can surely now be considered experienced International players.

Looking at the squad that we selected I think they can be broken down to

New Faces (4) -: Dan Biggar, Andrew Coombs, Craig Mitchell, Olly Kohn,
Grand Slam Winners (11) -: Alex Cuthbert, Jonathan Davies, George North, Aaron Shingler, Sam Warburton, Toby Faletau, Ken Owens, Paul James, Justin Tipuric, Lloyd Williams, Scott Williams.
Double Grand Slam Winners (5) -: Leigh Halfpenny, Jamie Roberts, Mike Phillips, Matthew Rees, Ian Evans,
Triple Grand Slam Winners (3) -: Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones, James Hook.

In terms of experience surely it should be taken as a whole? Not just international games.

Big games like AP,Top 14 and Pro12 playoffs, HC games etc.

E.g. a player like Farrell has 16 HC starting matches under his belt


In comparison George North only has 9 HC starts under his belt. Sam Waburton 14 starts.

Dan Biggar has 12 caps for Wales yet he has 26 starts in the HC.

These all add to the experience as you have to face different scenarios too.

The original poster meant exactly what he said, but perhaps it should have asked 'how many caps does it take before a player can be considered an experienced international player?

To which the nswer should probably be, 'that is intangible/unquantifiable'.

Well given test rugby is at another level to club rugby what you do beforehand is irrelevant.

Test rugby is unique, the honour, the expectation, the 60000+ crowd, its a much more different then playing for your local club, even in the HC or S14 say.
Some guys are great club players and mix it up with the best test players... but come test rugby they cannot handle it.

Experienced... I would say at least 3 seasons of test rugby and a tour abroad, either the RWC, lions tour or a competitive summer tour to the 3N sides. Game time is important too. Chilliboy has been on the fringes of the SA side for 5 years and yet is only now becoming experienced... 5/10 mins a game isn't the same as getting through a full 80 mins.

Historically you weren't a springbok until you toured abroad with the South African national side. If you played for SA at home only you weren't considered a springbok.

Jimpy stop being such a pedantic piece of £$%^. I can read.

It depends on how the players earn their caps surely?

I am saying that experience can't just be limited to internationals. Plus whose to say? As ulstermaninglasgow says Farrell,Barritt and Youngs are experienced. Mostly due to their HC and AP playoff experiences.

You can get used to play opposition in France,Ireland,Wales,Italy etc which means you can bring that experience to the international stage.


England made a mockery of experience when beating New Zealand.

beshocked wrote:Jimpy stop being such a pedantic piece of £$%^. I can read.

It depends on how the players earn their caps surely?

I am saying that experience can't just be limited to internationals. Plus whose to say? As ulstermaninglasgow says Farrell,Barritt and Youngs are experienced. Mostly due to their HC and AP playoff experiences.

You can get used to play opposition in France,Ireland,Wales,Italy etc which means you can bring that experience to the international stage.


England made a mockery of experience when beating New Zealand.

I'm not being pedantic, actually, you are. The question clearly asked how many caps does a player need before he can be considered experienced. How they get there is irrelevant, its how many they accrue afterwards that is in debate.

Persoally, I think that this is the intangible.

Was Mouritz Botha experienced then given he came into test rugby aged 29?

I was interested that historically a Bok was not considered a Bok unless he was capped abroad.
During touring days there was for example several All Blacks who were NOT at least by my criteria All Blacks.
By that I mean they played in NON test matches ONLY if the played a test Match were they considered Capped.
Just because a player was not capped by his native country does`nt always means he is an inferior player.
Rikki Flutey did`nt get a lot of caps for England or the Lions BUT he was THE best midfield player in the UK for awhile.
He represented the Hurricanes at Super level but could`nt get a regular place
because he was number 4.Behind tana Umaga,Conrad Smith,and Ma Nonu not easy getting past those 3 !!!

emack2 wrote:I was interested that historically a Bok was not considered a Bok unless he was capped abroad.
During touring days there was for example several All Blacks who were NOT at least by my criteria All Blacks.
By that I mean they played in NON test matches ONLY if the played a test Match were they considered Capped.
Just because a player was not capped by his native country does`nt always means he is an inferior player.
Rikki Flutey did`nt get a lot of caps for England or the Lions BUT he was THE best midfield player in the UK for awhile.
He represented the Hurricanes at Super level but could`nt get a regular place
because he was number 4.Behind tana Umaga,Conrad Smith,and Ma Nonu not easy getting past those 3 !!!

I dont think he was ever going to get past those guys but from the sound of things he did up his game after getting to England (the change in environment being the biggest factor). He was a smart player and was looking very useful for the Lions until he got that shoulder injury.

fa0019 wrote:Well given test rugby is at another level to club rugby what you do beforehand is irrelevant.

Test rugby is unique, the honour, the expectation, the 60000+ crowd, its a much more different then playing for your local club, even in the HC or S14 say.
Some guys are great club players and mix it up with the best test players... but come test rugby they cannot handle it.

Experienced... I would say at least 3 seasons of test rugby and a tour abroad, either the RWC, lions tour or a competitive summer tour to the 3N sides. Game time is important too. Chilliboy has been on the fringes of the SA side for 5 years and yet is only now becoming experienced... 5/10 mins a game isn't the same as getting through a full 80 mins.

Historically you weren't a springbok until you toured abroad with the South African national side. If you played for SA at home only you weren't considered a springbok.

Given the size of our tiny stadiums that would mean most the ABs not as experienced as we thought.
Anyway I think this experience thing has been done to death - it seems we now have English and Welsh fans competing to be the least experienced team

experienced?? HOOK 68 tests fly half starts 19, fly half as sub 14
total 33 at fly half.

centre 19 starts, 1 sub, total 20 at centre

full back 10 starts, 2 subs total 12 at full back

wing 3 as sub

used? or never cracked it in one position?

CONSECUTIVE STARTS (his fans say he hasnt had them at fly half)
2007 6ns , 5 consecutive starts at centre
last game at fly half, started, england

may 2007 to sept 2007 5 consecutive starts at fly half(5)

2008 6ns started at twickenham, then scotland, (2)subbed but came on italy, ireland, started france

2011 6ns started at fly half ireland , week later started france.(2)

october 2011 started against france, then against australia.(2)

so, without too much effort we can see that out of the 19 starts as fly half he has had consecutive games, 6ns and others.

i value his contribution, but to say he hasnt been given a chance is wrong.

68 tests, experienced, yes, best in any one position? no

You don't just become experienced after a set about of caps. You gradually become more experienced, the more you play in big games etc.

my point is all those caps for hook, in big games and still he hasnt convinced international coaches hes the 10 for wales, so what good , what benefit, has he had ?just found his level?