v2 G.O.A.T Round 2 Match 11

Morning, all.

After a brief pause we're back in the thick of the v2 G.O.A.T action. Tuesday's round 8 match saw Sir Steve Redgrave dominate Shane Warne, the 5-time Olympic rowing champion of Great Britain taking a huge 70% of the votes and going through to the last sixteen at the expense of the Australian leg spinner, who had to be content with 30%.

Elsewhere, football legend Diego Maradona topped a very competitive 3-way group, advancing to the next stage with 46% of the votes cast in match 9 as two track and field giants, Edwin Moses and Daley Thompson, fell by the wayside with 35% and 19% respectively.

Match 11 here has Sugar Ray Robinson, often cited as the greatest boxer of all time, squaring off against Michael Jordan, often cited as the greatest basketball player of all time. Curiously, we are still lacking a write up for Jordan, but vote away and leave your reason why you voted for the man you did.

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Sugar Ray Robinson- Boxing- Championed by superflyweight
Let’s start at the beginning for the man almost universally recognised as pound for pound, the greatest boxer who ever lived. Walker Smith Junior was born 3rd May 1921 and following his family's move to New York, started boxing in a local Harlem gym. At 14 he wanted to enter a tournament and in order to circumvent the age restrictions (the minimum age was 16) he borrowed his older friend's Amateur Athletic Union card. His friend's name was Ray Robinson. The "Sugar" (a reference to his "sweet style") came later but from the moment he borrowed his friend's identity, a legend was born.

Robinson quickly went about putting together an outstanding amateur C.V. eventually racking up a record of 85 wins with no defeats. 69 of those wins were via knockout and 40 of those came in the first round. He was Golden Gloves featherweight champion in 1939 and then lightweight champion in 1940.

Turning pro in 1940 at the age of just 19, Robinson quickly went about making a name for himself, comprehensively beating current lightweight champion, Sammy Angott (who had refused to put his belt on the line) in just his 21st fight and then twice defeating (the second via a stoppage) the experienced master of the dark arts and former welterweight champion, Fritzie Zivic. A few fights later he won an unanimous decision against future middleweight great, Jake La Motta who outweighed Sugar that night by almost 13lbs (two whole weight classes in today's fight scene). Robinson was no protected fighter and fights against Angott, Zivic and La Motta as well as other tough, experienced opponents (including an ageing Henry Armstrong who is often regarded as the second greatest boxer who ever lived), represents a tough induction for a young fighter who was a relative novice. Despite this tough induction, it wasn't until his 40th fight that Robinson tasted defeat, losing a decision in his second fight against La Motta who outweighed him by 16lbs that night.

How did Robinson react to that defeat? He went unbeaten for the next 8 years winning 91 fights in the process defeating La Motta another 4 times along the way. Across their 6 fights, La Motta (who was a top drawer and very tough middleweight who would go on to win the middleweight title from the great Marcel Cerdan) outweighed Robinson by an average of 12lbs.

During that run of 91 victories, Robinson eventually won the welterweight title in 1946 at the age of 25 (boxing politics (in the form of the notorious Mob run, International Boxing Club) had kept him away from the title). Having amassed a record of 75 wins, 1 draw and 1 defeat, Robinson was allowed to compete for the vacant welterweight world title, triumphing with a unanimous decision over Tommy Bell. Finally, the man everyone knew was the best welterweight on the planet, had the belt that was rightfully his. Robinson remained undefeated as welterweight champion until he vacated the belt in 1950. During his reign he notched up wins against fellow welterweight great and future champion, Kid Gavilan before increasing problems making the 147lbs weight limit had Sugar setting his sights on the middleweight division.

Robinson won the middleweight title from La Motta in the infamous Valentine's Day Massacre which features prominently in the film Raging Bull. La Motta was stopped in brutal fashion in the 13th (the only legitimate stoppage of the legendary granite chinned, La Motta in 95 fights) and Robinson was champion at a second weight. Robinson subsequently went on a valedictory tour of Europe (fighting in various European cities against European opponents) which by all accounts was little more than one long party. Robinson turned up in the UK slightly worse for wear and somewhat undercooked and lost his title to Britain's own Randy Turpin having been outpointed over 15 rounds. Robinson immediately won the title back from Turpin, stopping him in the 10th round when behind on the cards. Robinson then defended the title a further twice against future champion, Bobo Olsen and former champion Rocky Graziano.

Having successfully defended his middleweight title, Robinson immediately turned his attention to Joey Maxim’s light heavyweight title. Against a very fine light heavyweight in Maxim and operating in a division way above his welterweight peak, Robinson was well ahead on all of the cards when he failed to emerge for the 14th round due to heat exhaustion. The fight had been held outdoors at Yankee Stadium in New York in sweltering heat and humidity and in the end it proved too much for Sugar. Following that defeat, Robinson immediately announced his first retirement from the sport.

Robinson stayed retired for 2 and a ½ years before returning at middleweight to take the title back from Bobo Olsen (via a 2nd round knockout) at the age of 34. His form on his return was patchy – he would lose the title three times (regaining it twice) but it was in this run of fights that contained Robinson’s greatest and perhaps most famous moment in the ring. At the age of 35 and up against the formidable champion Gene Fullmer (a man who had already beaten Robinson convincingly in their previous fight), Robinson was just about holding his own and then in the 5th round unleashed what many consider to be the greatest knockout punch of all time. Robinson hit Fullmer with a lightning quick left hook to the jaw which sent Gene plummeting to the floor. The fight was over in an instant and Robinson was middleweight champion for the fourth time. How good was the punch? Judge for yourself in the video below and consider that Fullmer had never been off his feet in any fight until that point and was considered iron jawed. Here’s what Fullmer had to say about it – “I still don’t know anything about the punch except I watched it on movies a number of times. The first thing I knew, I was standing up. I asked my manager, ‘What happened?’ and he said, ‘They counted ten.’”

Robinson would lose and win back the title once more and then would fail in a couple of more title challenges. However, he was long past his best by this point and pushing 40. Unfortunately Robinson (driven by a need to keep earning money) would fight on for many more years and would tarnish his record by losing to men who would not have been fit to get in the ring with him at his peak. This should not detract from how good he was. If we consider him only at his peak (generally recognised as being everything up to , but not including the Joey Maxim fight), he amassed a record of 128 wins, 1 draw and 2 defeats. Just incredible numbers made more incredible by the names on his record. Robinson defeated 10 Hall of Famer’s in his career; Jake Lamotta, Sammy Angott, Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, Kid Gavilan, Rocky Graziano, Randy Turpin, Gene Fullmer and Carmen Basilio.

The following description of Robinson is by Monte Cox and is taken from the excellent website “Cox’s Corner” and it describes Robinson better than I ever could:

“What other fighter could beat you more ways than could Sugar Ray Robinson? Ray could out box boxers and out punch punchers. He could do it inside or outside, going forward or backward. Ray could do it with his powerful left hook as he did against Gene Fullmer or with his perfect straight right as he did against Rocky Graziano. Joe Louis could throw triple left hooks with speed, power and accuracy that could destroy a man. Robinson could throw triple left hooks and triple right hooks that could do the same. Who else could do that and maintain frightening power?... Ray Robinson was the archetype of a complete fighter. If one combines his polished, grand boxing style with his powerful punching and cast iron chin with a will to win unsurpassed in the annals of boxing one has a perfect fighter.

“To sum it up, Robinson was the consummate professional fighter who possessed every physical asset; speed, agility, mobility, and tremendous punching power. He rates among a select few of the all time greats who could defeat fighters using their own best assets against them. Robinson, a true sharpshooter, easily rates among the best pound for pound punchers in history. Robinson is possibly the greatest combination puncher of all time. His quality of opposition is among the top five. Ray’s peak won-loss record is among the top three. Ray’s overall ring record and accomplishments also rate among the top three. Robinson is among the top five of all time in the category of longevity. Ray had all the intangibles, great experience, killer instinct, a tremendous chin and heart.”

Let’s finish by looking at what his fellow greats had to say about him:

“Someone once said there was a comparison between Sugar Ray Leonard and Sugar Ray Robinson. Believe me, there's no comparison. Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest."
Sugar Ray Leonard

“The king, the master, my idol.”
“That man was beautiful. Timing, speed, reflexes, rhythm, his body, everything was beautiful. And to me, still, I would say pound for pound...I'd say I'm the greatest heavyweight of all time, but pound for pound, I still say Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest of all time.”
Muhammad Ali

Quite simply, Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest boxer who ever lived and operated the peak of one of the toughest sports for a period of more than 20 years. He is regarded as far and away the greatest welterweight who ever lived (ahead of men like Armstrong, Sugar Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns and Jose Naploles) and most observers have him in their top 5 middleweights. He had great talent, he faced and beat the best and he reigned at the top for an incredible period of time. In short, he was the complete sportsman!

Jordan all day long!

Went for Jordan, boxing is for the brain dead and soon to be brain dead.

Very succinct

It's the hardest straight choice so far for me. I think I'm leaning towards Robinson, but Jordan was equally dominant as a talent. It's a real 50-50 right now.

Jordan for me, Robinsons achievements are amazing but ultimately I have to admit I find it hard to warm get too turned on by stuff that happened 70 years ago. Jordan may just be the ultimate athlete, poetry in motion.

I find it hard to warm get too turned on by stuff that happened 70 years ago

I'm glad my dad didn't.

Robinson for me.
Widely acknowledged G.O.A.T. in one of the toughest and most widely participated in sports out there.

Jordan.

He was so good they named a country after him. And a whole range of trainers.

Tongue out of cheek now. I feel that Jordan was the best ever within his own sport and has transcended it or at least pushed it massively to a new audience. Looking at the boxing debates, rightly or wrongly, Robinson is not universally accredited with being the best ever.

Diggers - I actually find it a massive plus point for Robinson that his name and at least some of his achievements are so known across the globe after 70 years.

Without doubt, Jordan was an exceptionally fine athlete although some way short in my book of being the ultimate one. I would place several ahead of him, particularly Bolt and Owens.

Looking at the boxing debates, rightly or wrongly, Robinson is not universally accredited with being the best ever.

I'd have to disagree - he's pretty much a consensus pick amongst anyone whose opinion matters. Armstrong and Greb probably have the closest competing claims but it's very rare for anyone to place anyone other than Robinson right at the very top.

Waiting for a write up on Jordan to decide. Could be a long wait and might turn out to be by The Main Event Lads (in which case SRR will get my vote).

Michael Jordan for me.
An icon who dominated his sport, retired to play pro baseball, and returned to basketball better than ever as his play and personality with the NBA and Dream Team created/attracted an international audience for basketball.

Not good that two final four candidates are drawn together.

Robinson, it's not even close.

Did Jordan ever avoid playing anyone the way Robinson ducked Charley Burley ?

Diggers wrote:Did Jordan ever avoid playing anyone the way Robinson ducked Charley Burley ?

He ducked Scottie Pippin by playing in the same team as him.

Robinson. In his prime, even more dominant than Jordan was in his.

Diggers wrote:Did Jordan ever avoid playing anyone the way Robinson ducked Charley Burley ?

We're getting there, one vote at a time as they say.

Individual man on man rather than part of a team tips this one toward Robinson for me.

I'm only going on my brief looks at the boxing based comments on here (and specifically the GOAT competition). It is from here I drew the opinion that SRR is not universally accredited with being the best ever. My view (and I happily admit I may well be wrong out there in the real world) is that if he can't tie it up within a relatively small forum community, I would say it is reasonable to assume that the wider boxing fraternity would similarly not be able to agree.

Incidentally (and not a back up for my argument although there are parallels) all I have in my head now are the scenes in Coming to America where Eddie Murphy is arguing between his 3 barber characters about the best heavyweight and the lack of agreement they managed!

I may well be wrong and if so I apologise but I have voted for Jordan (although it looks like SRR is going through at the moment anyway).

Roller, whilst there is always the odd contrary view I would say Robinson as about as close to a universal pick as you would hope to see in a sport. The nature of forums and having a bit of knowledge at your disposal is you will tend to find people try to find slightly more obscure folk who can topple them, we’re all guilty of this on occasion but it is largely intellectual snobbery as we like to think with our in depth knowledge of the sport we don’t run with the pack. However as someone who spends more than his share of time on boxing history websites it is rare you will find too many that do not have Robinson as the greatest ever and I personally am yet to see a truly compelling argument to have anyone above him.

Rowley,
When ESPN compiled their list of the 100 greatest American athletes of the 20th century, the boxers rated were:
3rd: Ali
11th: Louis
24th: Robinson (interestingly there wre three women ahead of him, not boxers though!)
51st: Marciano
52nd: Dempsey
87th: Armstrong
100th: Johnson

To what do you attribute the high ranking of Robinson on this board in comparison to American sports historians?

Incidentally, the top ten were:
Jordan
Ruth
Ali
Brown
Gretzky
Owens
Thorpe
Mays
Nicklaus
Didrikson

If ESPN are sports historians, I'm a nuclear physicist. Try most respectable boxing historians, kwini, and you'll get a better answer.

Like I say - happy to admit when I'm wrong. Unfortunately boxing is one of those sports with so many divisions direct comparisons are not easy and so opinion comes from what one sees (which is admittedly little as it doesn't really interest me a huge amount). I haven't seen almost universal agreement on SRR myself, but if there is and it is my ignorance of boxing then, again, I'm sorry.

I'm still with Jordan in this one, but happily bow to the weight of SRR votes in the outcome.

Would guess I would have to know the criteria they were applying to have any idea how they had him so low. Without knowing that my initial instinct is they would be general sports journalists/experts rather than specific boxing experts. There is a massive prevalence you see in the rating of boxers, even amongst boxing journalists/experts but particularly more so amongst general sports writers/fans to completely overrate heavyweights, you could even see it in this exercise when Tyson found himself up for consideration when had he been a featherweight he would rightly have not got within a country mile of the nominations (rightly so I might add). Is telling that both of the boxers ESPN had above him in this exercise were both heavyweights.

Kwini

Yet, strangely, when ESPN compiled it's list of the 50 greatest boxers, they ranked Robinson No.1
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest2130

Ring magazine also rated Robinson the best boxer of the last 80 years in 2002.
http://boxing.about.com/od/history/a/ring_80_best.htm

Bert Sugar, famous boxing writer and historian, was another who rated Robinson as the best of all-time.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/1203/boxing-greatest-pound-for-pound/content.13.html

Robinson never had the political/racial/social impacts that boxers like Ali and Louis experienced. But in terms of his acheivements in the ring I would say hes fairly close to being the unanimous pick. Dreadfully difficulty to cross compare era's though in a sport like boxing.

As do the IBRO whose membership is made up of pretty much every boxing historian and writer worth the name

http://www.ibroresearch.com/?p=463

Hoggy, Rowley, captain,
I'm not saying ESPN are right, I'm just intrigued to understand the disparity.

To be fair Hoggy, that was one contributor providing a "special" to ESPN.com, not a network-wide enterprise.

And I'd grown up hearing as how SRR was the greatest of all time.

Anyway, just trying to be devil's advocate.

Not a problem mate, we're a protective old bunch on the boxing board when it comes to Ray, most of us would prefer you to speak ill of the missus than we would Ray.

kwinigolfer wrote:Hoggy, Rowley, captain,
I'm not saying ESPN are right, I'm just intrigued to understand the disparity.

To be fair Hoggy, that was one contributor providing a "special" to ESPN.com, not a network-wide enterprise.

And I'd grown up hearing as how SRR was the greatest of all time.

Anyway, just trying to be devil's advocate.

I actually kind of agree with you. I think in a sport like boxing which is massively subjective in everything from scoring a fight to measuring achievements, I think having a fighter like Robinson being the unquestioned greatest ever is slightly wrong. Its almost taken as a matter of fact when really when you look at it theres no way of proving it and Robinson is still just the product of his own era. I think he deserves his spot because his argument for what he accomplished in the ring is probably stronger than any others but its too often taken as something that is an undisputable fact rather than a subjective matter which is extremely difficult to compare against other eras. Hes been put on a near untouchable pedestal.

Perhaps the one thing that elevates perception of certain athletes relative to others is the extent to which they remain in the public eye after their retirement.
Many of the all-time greats, regardless of sport, did that which refreshes their legacy across generations (as Jordan has done, Ruth to a certain extent, certainly Gretzky, Nicklaus, Ali and Louis).
I'm not sure that SRR ever lingered much in the consciousness outside the fighting fraternity, and that certainly shouldn't detract from GOAT regard.

You'd have to say considering how active the boxing forum is on here, compared to the basketball one...is there one?.....and considering that basketball is very low profile in the UK (really only raised by the great man himself).....this is really a moral victory for Jordan so far.

We find it shocking that a back-street brawler from the 1800s could possibly be considered a better sportsman than Michael Jordan - the 2nd most talented basketball player of all-time, behind only LeBron James.

Even in a boxing context, 'Salty Ray' - a nickname bestowed upon Ray due to his aesthetically displeasing style leaving a bad taste in the mouth - cannot be considered a true great.

Would he even last 10 seconds with Iron Mike?

Fact of the matter is, even Prince Naseem Hamed would flatten 'Salty Ray' with relative ease.

If we must have to endure your cretinous drivel about subjects you clearly know sod all about at least have the decency to spend five minutes on wiki before you post. Robinson neither fought or indeed lived in the 1800's. He fought fifteen round fights under the Queensbury rules, a mere 9 minutes more than a modern champion would fight.

Rowley wrote:If we must have to endure your cretinous drivel about subjects you clearly know sod all about at least have the decency to spend five minutes on wiki before you post. Robinson neither fought or indeed lived in the 1800's. He fought fifteen round fights under the Queensbury rules, a mere 9 minutes more than a modern champion would fight.

We appreciate that 'Salty Ray' had a dog in his heart, and that his killer-will made him a tricky opponent for many that he faced. But he was beaten on 19 separate occasions, a staggeringly high number of defeats for a so-called all-time great of the sport. To put Salty's failures into context; Prince Naseem only lost 1 bout, Carl Froch has lost just 2 fights.

In all honesty, only heavyweights should be considered the best boxers.

After all, would 'Salty Ray' be able to beat Mike Tyson? Could Salty beat Vitali Klitschko?

True but could Michael Jordan beat Sugar Ray? Could he Love sacks. Next.

Hans bog off you tw*t.

Could Michael Jordan beat Isaiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Bill Laimbeer and the rest of the Pistons? Not till they got old. Back to the asylum, scrote.

Good as I'm sure Sugar Ray was he ain't Michael Fooking Jordan. Jordan is a god like genius.

Also I'd give Mike more chance in a fight with Ray than I would Ray in a first to 10 man on man white men can't jump style shoot out with Mike.

Jordan needs 7 votes,,

Come on!

Spaghetti-Hans wrote:We find it shocking that a back-street brawler from the 1800s could possibly be considered a better sportsman than Michael Jordan - the 2nd most talented basketball player of all-time, behind only LeBron James.

Even in a boxing context, 'Salty Ray' - a nickname bestowed upon Ray due to his aesthetically displeasing style leaving a bad taste in the mouth - cannot be considered a true great.

Would he even last 10 seconds with Iron Mike?

Fact of the matter is, even Prince Naseem Hamed would flatten 'Salty Ray' with relative ease.

Why do you have to applaud at the end of your posts?

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Spaghetti-Hans wrote:We find it shocking that a back-street brawler from the 1800s could possibly be considered a better sportsman than Michael Jordan - the 2nd most talented basketball player of all-time, behind only LeBron James.

Even in a boxing context, 'Salty Ray' - a nickname bestowed upon Ray due to his aesthetically displeasing style leaving a bad taste in the mouth - cannot be considered a true great.

Would he even last 10 seconds with Iron Mike?

Fact of the matter is, even Prince Naseem Hamed would flatten 'Salty Ray' with relative ease.

Why do you have to applaud at the end of your posts?

He's making the cowpat into patties so its easier for his bumboys to swallow.

How the hell is this so close? SRR by a Ricky Hatton country mile.

Cheers Rodders

No Dave. your wrong.. Jordan is king!

Spaghetti-Hans wrote:

Rowley wrote:If we must have to endure your cretinous drivel about subjects you clearly know sod all about at least have the decency to spend five minutes on wiki before you post. Robinson neither fought or indeed lived in the 1800's. He fought fifteen round fights under the Queensbury rules, a mere 9 minutes more than a modern champion would fight.

We appreciate that 'Salty Ray' had a dog in his heart, and that his killer-will made him a tricky opponent for many that he faced. But he was beaten on 19 separate occasions, a staggeringly high number of defeats for a so-called all-time great of the sport. To put Salty's failures into context; Prince Naseem only lost 1 bout, Carl Froch has lost just 2 fights.

In all honesty, only heavyweights should be considered the best boxers.

After all, would 'Salty Ray' be able to beat Mike Tyson? Could Salty beat Vitali Klitschko?

How many times did Jordan get beat playing for the Chicago Bulls ?

Cheers Rodders

This great concept is being ruined by the drivel spouted by hans.

Getting back to the debate though robinson wins for me. As brilliant as jordan was I just feel robinsons achievements outweigh his.

To fight in such a competitive age across so many weights and so regularly and to be so successful is unprecedented. Hell he made jake la motta famous!

spencerclarke wrote:This great concept is being ruined by the drivel spouted by hans.

Getting back to the debate though robinson wins for me. As brilliant as jordan was I just feel robinsons achievements outweigh his.

To fight in such a competitive age across so many weights and so regularly and to be so successful is unprecedented. Hell he made jake la motta famous!

The Undertaker made Mankind far more famous than Jake 'The Snake' La Motta when he tossed him off the Cell in 98 - is The Deadman the best sportsman ever?

The Main Event Lads presented by Spaghetti Hans made Rafael Nadal famous. Does that mean that our organization is the best ever? To be fair, TME probably is the best of all-time.

Have you looked in to getting help? Or do the other voices talk you out of it?

To all you VoLeBronteers out there - this is a Call to Arms.

Michael Jordan may be less skilled than LeBron James but he is still the 2nd most talented baller of all-time and he is a member of the B-Ball fraternity. Let's not allow him to be defeated by a no-name brawler like 'Salty' Ray Robinson.