What would England have to do for you to consider them a top draw side

With England beating Ireland, it's looking increasingly like they will win the 6 nations (I'm sure Welsh and French fans in particular will dispute this). My question is when does a team go from being all right, or having potential, into being top dog, or close to it.

To me we'll no next year. I think this is good side with potential to be a great side. However, I don't think we'll know for a while. The reason being, the losses to Australia and South Africa at home raise questions about this year, that's coupled with no summer tour. For me the real test will come in the Autumn, the following 6 nations (presumably as defending champions) and the tour to NZ. If they are successful then I doubt there will be any disputes.

Well there can really only be one top dog.

Currently it is NZ, not much change regarding that.

Aren't England going to Argentina to play a few games in the summer?

Hi ya Biltong, sounds like a great weekend.
For me I think it will be SA in the timeframe above- 18 months from now. That should mark the end of any current injuries and the pack will be that much better- theres an ominous look about it now.

The experience of a Goosen style 10 over that period will bring the backs into line so they support the pack in ways SA backs havnt been able to last 3-4 years at least.

The frustration experienced by you and others can't keep bottled up forever Biltong. And its going to come out in the next 18 months so comprehensively the way it should- on the field.

We've been lucky unwise heads have kept the lid on the pressure cooker so far but its not going to last forever. Every player in the sxv will be feeling it and wanting to be there to see it happen.

Watch this space.

England- excellent progress under SL. They've gone on since the NZ game to win both emphatically and win a slugout with Ireland. Their 'formula' is difficult to place in terms of style, gameplan and presently seems based on key performers doing well- Flavell, Tuilagi and a good pack, as well as some good one offs from Twelvetrees etc. The signs are good, its just difficult to tell what the core strengths of the side is.

What happens when Flavell doesnt kick his goals (which will happen) What plan B's does England have when theyre not making gains. The rest of the 6N's will answer much of this I'm sure.

Morning Taylorman, I await our fate in grave anticipation. Fortunately our cricket team has been on a decent rn for the past years, it gives one some hope that even if the administration finds ways to fail, the right combination of coaches and players can rise to the top.

Within the competitiveness of Rugby Union, we need a decent slice of luck to go with it though.

In NZ we use the Black Caps as a guide Biltong as to how not to perform in rugby.

England has been off the boil since their peak in 2003 but they have always been a top draw side for me in that they are taken more seriously as opponents than others in the NH. Results haven't gone their way and they looked lost for quite a few years in terms of direction and selection. It's just now finally we have a team that is building nicely that is more capable of consistent performances and able to beat SH sides more regularly. They are going to be a real handful in 2015. If they get out of the pool of death they will be battle hardened and will prove a difficult prospect at home.

I wouldn't wish the black caps on anyone....

blackcanelion wrote:I wouldn't wish the black caps on anyone....

You guys should be more proud of them, they got a thrashing in the tests and then won the ODI's.

They may struggle in tests, but limited overs evens the playing field as you only need one or two players to star and everytime one or two did.

They are a gutsy bunch and I expect them to do better against england. They just caught SA on a roll, that's all.

Na we've had years of seeing our top and middle order crumble time after time after time Biltong. Every time we've looked like a chance we've found ways to stuff it up. The number of times Vettori and other tailenders have outscored our openers/ middle order is more than numerous.

Gave up on them long ago as serious contenders for anything. Amusement value at best these days I'm afraid.

On the good news front we could be looking at a potential worlds best womens golfer with Lydia Ko having just won her 3rd professional tournament as an amateur at.....15!

England are beginning to show signs of becoming a great team. The ability to grind out a win in Dublin in the rain shows this process. Regular wins over southern hemisphere sides would be the telling sign tho I think as well as being able to vary the game to suit the conditions.

Need more creativity in the backs as yet.

England tour of Argentina consists of 3 tests and 2 midweek games.

Who's playing NZ in the three test series next year? Hope it's England. Will be a great challenge for both teams.

There's not much to separate the sides at the top-the autumn demonstrated that. Ireland had a bad day at the office and dropped far too many balls but kudos to England for creating that pressure and also absorbing it when a man down. They will definitely be a handful in 2015 and have a young side much like NZ who hasn't reached its full potential. That's exciting for the game and we mustn't forget Aussie and SA had injury disrupted seasons. Can't wait for them to be back at full strength.

Taylorman's right, we regard them as more of a threat than other NH sides simply because they beat us from time to time. But that could be a snobbish Kiwi thing as if we had their draw then France would be the big game-the others haven't beaten us save Wales in the Cretaceous period I believe. They're really coming along and in terms of being regarded as a top drawer threat, well they already are. Great side? Well they need to win away. The WC is a one off tournament but some consistency for a few years would reaffirm it. Those losses against SA and Aussie can't be discounted but what was great is that England learned from them and have reaped the benefits of those lessons for the last three games.