v2 G.O.A.T Round 2 Match 15

Yesterday’s round 2 match up ended with Michael Phelps making the last 16 with relative ease defeating Martina Navratilova with 71% of the vote.

Today’s matches will conclude round 2 starting with Mohammed Ali taking on Sergei Bubka elsewhere Steffi Graf takes on Brain Lara for the final spot in round 2.

Below are the previous round 1 articles written by forum members

Please vote for the participant you believe has achieved the most in sport

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Mohammed Ali- Boxing- Championed by 6oldenbhoy

When I offered to take part in this exercise I was originally asked to champion another fighter. I had my reservations as, in my opinion, this man’s aura was built more on the reputation he had acquired rather than his in ring achievement (though I must admit he did achieve a heck of a lot). I had no such qualms with the second option, the self proclaimed ‘Greatest’ Muhammad Ali. At this point I must admit that, although I have been a fight fan for many years, some of my earliest memories are of watching Michael Carruth and Wayne McCullough in the Barcelona Olympics and no Saturday night was complete with watching the boxing on ITV, I have never been a massive fan of Ali. I have seen almost all of his fights, viewed all the major documentaries and read various articles on the man but I've always had an almost take it or leave it attitude towards him. However, upon undertaking this activity, I have found an admiration and respect for the man who would be a worthy winner of this accolade. His career encompassed everything, monumental highs, catastrophic lows, triumph in the face of adversity, not to mention controversy all now tinged with tragedy. To fit all of this into an article would be an impossible task, such was the effect he had on Boxing and the World around him.

Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr was born on the 17/1/1942 to a Methodist father and Baptist mother. Few could have predicted what this child would go on and accomplish. The story begins when at the age of twelve young Cassius had his bicycle stolen. A thirst for revenge drove him to his local boxing gym where he should such aptitude for the sport that in a mere six years he was crowned Olympic Light Heavyweight Champion in Rome in 1960. Nino Benvenuti, the darling of his home crowd, won the Val Barker Trophy but many thought this accolade belonged to Clay.

Upon returning home he promptly turned profession under the tutelage of Angelo Dundee. He quickly developed into a boxer fleet of foot with a stinging jab,lightning reflexes and with more than adequate power. Nineteen straight wins led to a title shot against the fearsome Sonny Liston. Going into the contest Clay was a 7/1 underdog, but won the title when Liston retired on his stool at the end of the sixth round. The rematch wouldn’t last as long, Liston going down in the first. Some claimed Liston took a dive, others claim it was a legitimate punch. The fight did create one the most iconic sporting images of the twentieth century, where Ali (shortly after the Liston fight he had changed his name to Cassius X, then to Muhammad Ali) stands over his fallen opponent screaming at him to continue. Ali went on to defend the title a further eight times.

Muhammad was stripped of his title soon after his final defense against Zora Folley. His boxing license was also revoked and was sentenced to five years in jail. He appealed and remained on bail but was unable to box for three and a half years. Eventually given a license to fight in Atlanta, Ali won the first of two comeback fights before challenging Joe Frazier for the undisputed Heavyweight Championship, in a bout now known as “The Fight of the Century”. It was a thriller from start to finish, Ali starting the faster, but Frazier slowly walked him down. Frazier was ahead on all scorecards going into the final round when he unleashed a tremendous left hook that put Ali on the canvas. Ali bravely rose and heard the final bell but lost a unanimous decision. It was noted that Ali did not have the usual bounce in his step and one could argue showed the effects of three and a half years out.

Ali would not challenge for the World title for another three years. He won thirteen of his next fourteen fights, avenging the only loss he suffered in this period. A win over Joe Frazier set up a bout with Big George Foreman. This was to be Ali’s finest hour. Going into the bout, entitled the “Rumble in the Jungle”, nobody was giving Ali a chance. Ali had suffered losses to both Ken Norton and Joe Frazier whereas Foreman had knocked both of the out in them in the second round. Ali started brightly enough, but then adopted a tactic of lying on the ropes and absorbing punishment from Foreman. Foreman punched but Ali blocked them, shooting out counters of his own at every chance. This tactic, which Ali would later describe as “Rope-a-Dope” would have been seen to be suicide to many but becoming increasingly effective as Foreman threw haymaker after haymaker to down Ali, but Ali took them and answered back with his own. Entering the eighth Foreman was visibly exhausted. Ali pounced, trapping him on the ropes pummeling him with a barrage of blow that put Foreman down. He was unable to answer the count and a New Champion was crowned. Ali defended the title a further three times before facing Joe Frazier in the final installment of their classic trilogy.

The “Thrilla in Manila” took place, funnily enough, in the Filipino capital in front of crowd of 28,000. What followed was fourteen rounds of unsheathed brutality before Frazier was retired on his stool. Frazier’s eyes were so badly swollen that he claimed he couldn't see the punches coming, yet still protested when Eddie Futch withdrew him from the contest. Ali led from the front punishing Frazier with hooks, jabs and uppercuts wobbling Frazier frequently. Frazier gamely fought back every time and in the mid rounds unleashed one of his trademark left hooks right to Ali’s jaw. This punch looked like it could have felled a tree, yet Ali took it and stayed on his feet. By the end of the fight Frazier was taking continuous punishment. In the fourteenth, Ali landed punch after punch on a more and a more helpless Frazier. It was a mercy when the fight was stopped. Ali described the contest as the closest thing to dying he had experienced, whilst showing humility, describing Frazier as the toughest man alive. A further six defenses of the title followed before he lost the title to “Neon” Leon Spinks. He won the title back in the return before retiring. A brief comeback last two fights, both defeats, though Ali was a shell of his former self by this stage.

When people talk of athletes transcending sport, Ali is the one who first comes to mind. When you ask the common man or women on the street who they most associate with the sport of Boxing, Ali’s name will be said most frequently. As big a fan as I am of the Klitschkos, the average person on the street would struggle to name either of them as Heavyweight Champion of the world. When Ali was Champion, it was the exact opposite. He was one of the most recognized faces in the world, never mind sportsmen. This was the reason Sports Illustrated named him Sportsman of the Century, as did the BBC. The Heavyweight Championship of the World was once talked of as the greatest prize in sport and it was fighters like Muhammad Ali that made it so. This is a sport that has so little margin for error. Moving your head even fractionally may have devastating results. As former Heavyweight title challenger Tex Cobb once said ""If you screw things up in tennis, it's 15-love. If you screw up in boxing, it's your ass."" Ali excelled at this sport even when he had returned a faded fighter physically from his imposed exile. However like all greats at any sport he found other ways to win. His in ring intelligence set him apart from his contemporaries when he had lost the bounce in his step and his reflexes had dulled. It must not be forgotten that he displayed all these skills and attributes in what was the golden period of Heavyweight boxing. While he is remembered for his talents by some, others will recall him for his mouth. Ali was the ultimate showman. The press loved him and although he could be vulgar and downright disrespectful to his opponents at times, it could be said that this hyped fights and helped him to get that mental edge on his opponent. As I alluded to in my opening paragraph, I had my doubts when I was asked to champion another fighter due to his record, I find Ali to be the complete package. His record stands alone as far as Heavyweights go, while he had the showmanship and charisma that contributed to his everlasting legacy on sport. Long after we are all gone people will still talk of Ali. The Ali of today has been ravaged by Parkinsonism, an unwanted souvenir of a career spanning twenty one years inside the ring. Yet to see him light the Olympic flame at the Atlanta games was a one of the most iconic moments of the 20th Century. To this day he continues to battle his condition with just as much courage as he exhibited throughout his career in the ring. It takes a brave man to step through those ropes and Ali has shown both through his career and the aftermath, that he is right up there with the bravest of them all.

Has to be Ali.

Bubka almost as unlucky as Sobers being drawn against Pele!

A serious question to the boxing brains of this board. Do you consider that Ali's reputation and ultimate greatness were tarnished by fighting on too long?

The answer doesn't matter as regards my vote today but it may become an issue as this GOAT contest progresses further. The case for Ali has massive strengths but my question relates to one perceived flaw upon which I would appreciate guidance.

If Ali loses this one to a run of late votes and amongst complaints that pole vault is a higher participation sport than boxing, I'm going to take my ball and go home.

I think Bubka is going to have to take a running jump here - with the aid of a long stick.

A serious question to the boxing brains of this board. Do you consider that Ali's reputation and ultimate greatness were tarnished by fighting on too long?

Yes and no, GB. In an ideal world, Ali would have quit after Manilla (although I can see a poetic argument for him retiring after the Rumble beating the unbeatable monster (Foreman) at the end of his career to mirror the defeat of another unbeatable moster (Liston) at the start of his championship career). However, he did carry on for too long and he suffered defeats against men like Spinks and Berbick who he would have made look stupid in his prime. What saves his legacy is that a blind man could see he was well past it and that there were signs that Parkinson's was already starting to affect him.

Is ali anything other than a media invention?

McLaren wrote:Is ali anything other than a media invention?

Are you the product of a donkey and a monkey?

Yep, a media invention beats Liston (twice), Foreman, and Frazier (twice).

Im sure we will have a clear win here for Ali, Bubka easily the best ever vaulter but its probably the most niche of all athletic events.

McLaren may just be the only person to have ever lived who believes that both Ali and Pele weren't actually up to all that much.

You stick with your domestic football, old son.

I didn't say pele wasn't great I said there was a lack of evidence for him being the greatest ever. Quite a different argument, old son.

easy one this ali, by a landslide

compelling and rich wrote:easy one this ali, by a landslide

Until a couple of dozen mysterious, nocturnal pole vault fans start voting.

superflyweight wrote:

compelling and rich wrote:easy one this ali, by a landslide

Until a couple of dozen mysterious, nocturnal pole vault fans start voting.

im already surprised there's four against ali, probably more anti boxing than pro pole vault me thinks

Putting aside the obvious problem that Tyson would vanquish him inside four rounds this is an easy one for me. Ali by some distance, the greatest heavyweight ever for me and probably the most famous sportsman that has ever lived.

"PS I voted for the cricketer as I could not stand it if the over rated pele got any further. He seems a real arse hole to boot."

Your own eloquent words, I think, McLaren. Revisionism doesn't make your judgement there, or indeed your coruscatingly pithy verdict on Ali, any less simple-minded.

Rowley wrote:Putting aside the obvious problem that Tyson would vanquish him inside four rounds this is an easy one for me. Ali by some distance, the greatest heavyweight ever for me and probably the most famous sportsman that has ever lived.

tyson would put bubka away in four rounds? i dont know jeff thats a pretty long stick bubka has and we all know tyson didnt like anyone with a decent jab

All reasonable points CnR but you're overlooking the point I should have made clearer that I was talking about PRIME Mike Tyson, who as we all know was the greatest ever FACT!!!!!!!!!!

It is a difficult one this as Bubka was superbly dominant in his era. Have to go for Ali as simply "the greatest". Fame goes a long way in this decision.

Prime Tyson would have vaulted 10 metres easy. Without the big stick.

A prime Mike Tyson could understand women.

Guildford with regard to Ali fighting on too long I personally don’t hold it against him because if we are to do that we have to hold it against nigh on every great boxer since time began, off the top of my head there would be similar asterixes against Ezzard Charles, Joe Louis, Roberto Duran, Benny Leonard, Sugar Ray Leonard, Jack Johnson, Sam Langford and many, many more. Plenty of these guys picked up losses against guys who would have struggled to get hired as their sparring partners during their peak years.

I am an Ali fan but as I said when he first came up for nomination I find the walks on water deification that goes on with the man little short of puke inducing and find it frequently verges on a complete airbrushing of the actualities of the situation, however none of that changes the fact that the likes of Frazier, Foreman, Liston and Norton were all fine fighters in their own right and Ali boasts winning records against them all, that he achieved this over a span of ten years with a three year gap in the middle that would spell the death knell for most fighters is enough to tell me that the guy is a serious talent and great in the truest sense of the word.

Very easy choice this time - while Bubka was a fantastic vaulter, it is an incredibly niche sport, and his Olympic record is a major black mark against him.

Ali may not have had the greatest record over his career, mainly by fighting for too long (and sadly the effects of that are now all too obvious), but clearly from the mid 60s to early-mid 70s he was both the best heavyweight boxer and the most charismatic, commercial, controversial and striking sporting superstar of all.
In later rounds, it's going to get more interesting in trying to separate Ali the boxer and Ali the personality, and wiegh the sporting merits of Ali against that of other, perhaps less charismatic, sportsmen. However, this round he is clearly the easy winner.

Jeff - thanks for your response to my query on Ali. And to you as well earlier, Superfly.

It's clear many great boxers went on too long. I just feel it would have distinguished Ali even further if he had not been amongst them.

Following on from Superfly's post, Ali's decision to box on may have been impaired by the onset of Parkinson's disease. We almost certainly need to criticise Ali's advisers here. It may be overly harsh but should we also criticie Ali for not ensuring earlier in his career that he had the best advice available to him at all times? No one could have reasonably foreseen the onset of Parkinson's but is there a case for saying the boxing GOAT should have recognised that not all his battles would be in the ring and needed to prepare accordingly?

I hope I don't come across like Maclaren as the offspring of a monkey and a donkey. That's not my intention. The reason I'm probing and perhaps placing unreasonable expectations is that there are three people left in this contest who for me could deservedly win it. Ali is one of those three. I need to ascertain whether he is ahead of the other two.

I was watching '10 greatest heavyweights if all time' at the weekend, where a boxing expert (his name has gone) picked Larry Holmes at 10. Larry disagreed, as he said he stopped Ali, forgetting that this was a past his best Ali.

Bert Sugar was the expert

Stella wrote:I was watching '10 greatest heavyweights if all time' at the weekend, where a boxing expert (his name has gone) picked Larry Holmes at 10. Larry disagreed, as he said he stopped Ali, forgetting that this was a past his best Ali.

You may not be aware of Larry Holmes' (affectionately known as Larry Big Pants / Big Pants Lar / Old Man Lar by us boxing board users!) tried and tested interviewee technique, Stella, so in case you're not I'll fill you in. Basically, it consists of Larry continually telling whoever the interviewer is that he is the greatest Heavyweight of all time and that he's never got the credit he deserves, and that prime for prime he'd easily beat any other Heavyweight champion who ever lived and only a fool could argue against any of this.

88Chris05 wrote:

Stella wrote:I was watching '10 greatest heavyweights if all time' at the weekend, where a boxing expert (his name has gone) picked Larry Holmes at 10. Larry disagreed, as he said he stopped Ali, forgetting that this was a past his best Ali.

You may not be aware of Larry Holmes' (affectionately known as Larry Big Pants / Big Pants Lar / Old Man Lar by us boxing board users!) tried and tested interviewee technique, Stella, so in case you're not I'll fill you in. Basically, it consists of Larry continually telling whoever the interviewer is that he is the greatest Heavyweight of all time and that he's never got the credit he deserves, and that prime for prime he'd easily beat any other Heavyweight champion who ever lived and only a fool could argue against any of this.

He did mention not getting the credit he desreved

I remember watching Larry on ITV in the 80's. Not sure how good his opponents were in what was a weak era for heavyweights, IMO.

McLaren wrote:Is ali anything other than a media invention?

Are you anything other than an attention seeking WUM?

As someone once said of Holmes "he is a well balanced guy, he has a chip on both shoulders"

With regard to carrying on too long I suspect the same is true of many of the guys in our list. Think the issue is in boxing as you’re getting punched in the face and potentially knocked out your regression and slowing down is more visually apparent. Only have to look at Tendulkar now to see he is not the force he once was and am sure the same is true of many of the guys on the list for consideration.

To be honest you can understand why anyone from the, shall I say, younger generation might not get the Ali thing.
The heavyweight crown used to be one of the biggest prizes in sport, arguably the biggest. Those days are long, long gone. To be honest its all something of a joke now and has been for years.
So I guess its difficult to understand what a big deal Ali was and how massive his iconic fights were when the world stopped to watch and listen when he fought.

ALi knocks Bubka with a trademark upper right punch in the 2nd round.

"His mamma call him Clay, imma call him Clay."

Floats like a butterfly, stings like a bee.

Just hope Ali and Pele can be on opposite sides of the draw.