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Minor Changes for the Team v Italy?

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Barney McGrew did it
Alex_Germany
damage_13
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Luckless Pedestrian
Cumbrian
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beshocked
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Post by yappysnap Mon 25 Feb 2013, 9:06 am

So after the trench warfare against Italy and France and in particular a few players having poor games against the French, should Lancaster be looking to experiment a little against Italy to find that cutting edge?

If he is going to make changes and use more of the squad then this is the team that i'd like to see start:

Team to face Italy:
1. Marler
2. Youngs - Just adds a tonne more agression to the Eng pack, gets through a heck of a lot of work too
3. Cole
4. Parling
5. Launchberry
6. Wood - Probably one of our best players but must be at 6!
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan - Like Wood but must be in at 8, we miss his power and line breaking massively
9. Care - Has been one of the stand out players of the Prem, needs to get a start to reward all of his work
10. Farrel
11. Brown
12. Twelvetrees - Needs to show that he can take over BB's tackling duties AND add a wider game to Englands attack, I think he'll be great TBH
13. Tuilangi
14. Wade - If we're going to have a distributer like 36 in there then we need to have some real danger out wide, Wade has a lot of hype so a lot to prove but he's in great form at the moment
15. Foden - England's lack of pace in the backs has been highlighted this tournament, Foden adds heaps of that along with experience and very good defence, he loves scoring for Eng too

16, Vunipola 17, Hartley 18, Wilson 19, Lawes 20, Haskell 21, Youngs 22, Flood 23, Goode

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 25 Feb 2013, 9:13 am

I have made my thoughts clear on why Tom Youngs shoudl not come back on another thread.

Agree wood should be 6 and the best fit No8 (under 30 sorry Nick) selected.

Have no real concern who starts at 9 but disagree completely with your logic. I felt Lancaster was wrong to switch them half way through the AIs as Care was playing well, but it seemed to work. I think he should play whichever 9 he wants to play aginst Wales against Italy. So if we get another mide torunament tactical switch fine, but not to reward a player with a cap then to move him back to the bench for the next game.

Barritt will be playing against Wales and right now should be the second name on the teamsheet (behind the captain). That will probably be with Tuilagi so as they have so little game time together I would like them to continue. I would rather give 36 a good run of the bench.

Wade - would love to see him play. Cannot see it happen.

Foden - is he fully fit yet? Is he in form? If so I would draft him in (but probably play Brown at FB and Foden on wing)


Last edited by LondonTiger on Mon 25 Feb 2013, 9:22 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by beshocked Mon 25 Feb 2013, 9:17 am

Changing 7 players is not minor.

I feel like a lot of England fans are being a bit foolish to be honest. We beat France by 10 points yet the panic button has been hit - wholesale changes are needed because in some people's eyes after one game player's instantly become rubbish don't they?

So much criticism being thrown around. Why is it that certain players seem to be given the benefit of the doubt when they have a rubbish game or two yet others don't?

I don't see you wanting to drop Marler even though he struggled against France. Quins bias perhaps?

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Post by dummy_half Mon 25 Feb 2013, 9:54 am

A few fans thinking Italy will be easy and so an opportunity to try a few things out (like a 12trees-Manu centre partnership). While I think we should win and win reasonably well, the changes are a bit too much.

Unarguable - Lawes must not start at 6. If Morgan is back it becomes easy, with Wood-Robshaw-Morgan starting and Haskell on the bench. If Morgan is not fit though, it becomes a bit more questionable whether Wood or Haskell should start at 8, or whether we should pick a specialist 8 (Waldrom presumably next in line) to have the better balance.

Arguable - Hartley v T Youngs. Youngs has had a couple of spells where his throwing has gone to pot (SA and Ireland), and Hartley did well at the Aviva to come on and settle things down, doing well enough to justify his start this week. However, Youngs had real impact off the bench and is such a dynamic player in open play that you can maybe forgive some set piece weaknesses. A bit of a coin toss for me.

Barritt v 12trees: You know what you will get from Barritt; defensive solidity and a guy who doesn't make mistakes (and who plays like another flanker when first or second to the breakdown). What you don't often get is a real threat ball in hand or great distribution. 12trees offers more with the ball but less without it. Yuo can make a case for a 'horses for courses' pick, but I'm not sure Lancaster is really thinking along those lines. My inclination would be to start Barritt with 36 on the bench (probably as cover for 10-12-13, I'd like to at least get Foden back to the bench).

Someone else for Ashton - I think some criticism has been unduly harsh, in that Ashton has looked for work and put in a shift chasing kicks. The problem is that although he's putting in good kick chases he isn't then able to bring down the ball carrier - Picamoles and SOB have both been able to evade relatively weak tackle attempts. The miss on Fofana was more because Lawes shouldn't have let him arc round to the gap, and if Ashton had committed inside earlier Fofana would just have put his winger away. My question though is would anyone else really have done more? Neither Wade nor Varndell are noted for great defence while Strettle is probably an even weaker tackler.

Unnecessary changes - Foden for Goode: Goode does what he does and has been solid for the last couple of matches. I would like Foden to be available off the bench as back 3 cover, but my understanding is that his form since coming back from injury is nothing to write home about.

Care for Youngs - Youngs was fantastic against Scotland, controlled the game v Ireland and did pretty well behind a retreating pack for the first half on Saturday. Care is playing well, but is being helped to shine by coming on against tiring opponents. I'm quite happy to keep things going the same way.

Don't think Marler had a particularly good game on Saturday, and Mako V did at least offer more energy and dynamism around the field (and have a fortuitously placed shin in the run-up to Manu's try), but I don't think it was enough to justify switching them round. OK, Corbs is better than both when fit, but Marler's done a pretty good job as his stand-in.

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Post by yappysnap Mon 25 Feb 2013, 9:57 am

I don't think any one is panicking Beshocked.

And it's in the backs that we have the problems really, so far we've overcome them but you can't just ignore the fact that we lack penetration or pace out wide. Barritt could be dropped as he has a replacement who's in and around the team already. Goode could be dropped as he's frankly been average so far and we have a better option if he's fit. Remember Goode was third choice and has done well to retain the shirt but for me is still the third best FB around.

As to Quins bias that's a little silly, Marler stays in there as he went fine against France, it was Cole that was in trouble. Robshaw is doing well and Care is as stated on fire at the moment, hardly Quins bias now is it?

LT, just read your other thread and it's an interesting point. I think SL will do as you say and carry on with Hartley but drop Lawes.

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Post by pbuk0 Mon 25 Feb 2013, 10:03 am

yappysnap wrote:So after the trench warfare against Italy and France and in particular a few players having poor games against the French, should Lancaster be looking to experiment a little against Italy to find that cutting edge?

If he is going to make changes and use more of the squad then this is the team that i'd like to see start:

Team to face Italy:
1. Marler
2. Youngs - Just adds a tonne more agression to the Eng pack, gets through a heck of a lot of work too
3. Cole
4. Parling
5. Launchberry
6. Wood - Probably one of our best players but must be at 6!
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan - Like Wood but must be in at 8, we miss his power and line breaking massively
9. Care - Has been one of the stand out players of the Prem, needs to get a start to reward all of his work
10. Farrel
11. Brown
12. Twelvetrees - Needs to show that he can take over BB's tackling duties AND add a wider game to Englands attack, I think he'll be great TBH
13. Tuilangi
14. Wade - If we're going to have a distributer like 36 in there then we need to have some real danger out wide, Wade has a lot of hype so a lot to prove but he's in great form at the moment
15. Foden - England's lack of pace in the backs has been highlighted this tournament, Foden adds heaps of that along with experience and very good defence, he loves scoring for Eng too

16, Vunipola 17, Hartley 18, Wilson 19, Lawes 20, Haskell 21, Youngs 22, Flood 23, Goode

thumbsup thumbsup

I agree .. However I would put Brown at FB and Foden on the wing..and maybe start Vunipola instead of Marler..

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Post by beshocked Mon 25 Feb 2013, 12:25 pm

Yappysnap Marler was not fine vs France. The scrum struggled vs France. Just a coincidence that when Vunipola came on the scrum dramatically improved?

It just seems like double standards that you want to drop B.Youngs yet retain Marler.

If you go for form then you pick Vunipola and Care, if you want more continuity then you go for Marler and B.Youngs.

Vunipola made a big difference when he came on. Most of the bench did actually.

Personally I wouldn't make wholesale changes like you suggest. Just a few tweaks.

Give Ashton another chance. Controversial I know. He had a poor game agreed but dropping him will just cripple his confidence. Maybe that's what most of you want!

Possibly try Twelvetrees but don't change the team too much.

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Post by nathan Mon 25 Feb 2013, 12:34 pm

beshocked wrote:Yappysnap Marler was not fine vs France. The scrum struggled vs France. Just a coincidence that when Vunipola came on the scrum dramatically improved?

It just seems like double standards that you want to drop B.Youngs yet retain Marler.

If you go for form then you pick Vunipola and Care, if you want more continuity then you go for Marler and B.Youngs.

Vunipola made a big difference when he came on. Most of the bench did actually.

Personally I wouldn't make wholesale changes like you suggest. Just a few tweaks.

Give Ashton another chance. Controversial I know. He had a poor game agreed but dropping him will just cripple his confidence. Maybe that's what most of you want!

Possibly try Twelvetrees but don't change the team too much.

Wasn't that at the same time as the French front row changed?

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Post by killer938 Mon 25 Feb 2013, 12:35 pm

I would take this opportunity to start 36 and Manu together, it is going to happen sooner or later and this seems like as a good a place to start as any. The good thing about what Lancaster is doing is that he is building a squad with depth that is capable of competing at the highest level, not just a starting 15 or even 22 and he is going about it in the right manner in my opinion. The only thing i heard which slightly worries me is the possibility of moving Manu to the wing. I really hope this doesn't happen and I hope he has learned from the French that putting your best attacking player from centre to wing to try and accommodate other players doesn't work.

Other than that, I wouldn't change too much, Vunipola starting and then if Morgan is fit bring him in and Wood back to 6, if not someone else at 6 to replace Lawes. I think 2 or 3 changes at a time to build the squad is the right way to do it, like he did for the France game.

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Post by propdavid_london Mon 25 Feb 2013, 12:37 pm

I thought that Vaunipola looks to be a bit of a liability!
He was binned against the AB's, and last Saturday he could have easily been binned for his hand in the ruck when France were starting to roll.
They are just silly mistakes at the moment - but they aslo counter the impact that he makes.

We should also consider that a number of changes were also made to the French front row about the same time that Mako came on.
DeBatty and Ducalcaon both came on for Mas and Domingo.


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Post by beshocked Mon 25 Feb 2013, 12:42 pm

propdavid london I thought Vunipola was unlucky vs the ABs. YC was harsh.

You say he could have got easily binned yet he didn't - his intervention actually led to the Manu try.

Nathan I can't say I have seen the substitute timings but I am pretty sure Vunipola came on before the props subs were made for France.

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 25 Feb 2013, 12:45 pm

beshocked wrote:Give Ashton another chance. Controversial I know. He had a poor game agreed but dropping him will just cripple his confidence. Maybe that's what most of you want!

I want a confident Ashton as I feel he can offer a lot. However he has been poor for England for about 12 months now.

On a side note if 36 plays it should be at the expense of Manu. no way should Barritt be left out right now.

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Post by killer938 Mon 25 Feb 2013, 12:53 pm

LT

After that game I don't think there is any way you can leave Manu out either. We know what Manu and Barritt bring together, we have seen Barritt and 36 so I would to see 36 and Manu together as well. As I said before, what I like about what Lancaster is doing is he is building a squad and although the 6 nations is very important, it is also important that we continue to develop this squad and, with no disrespect to Italy, I see this as the perfect opportunity to try them together. When we play Wales, Barritt will be one of the first names on the team sheet.

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Post by propdavid_london Mon 25 Feb 2013, 12:53 pm

beshocked - I wasnt referring to the Manu try breakdown. It was later in the half. Back on the England 22m line - Para is going for quick ball and Mako reaches through and knocks the ball out of his hands. Thats a definate yellow and penalty.

Its the incident which was seen by the touch judge but the ref couldnt hear him over the radio - luckilly.

But, still - he got away with it and England won. Happy days.

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Post by Cumbrian Mon 25 Feb 2013, 1:03 pm

I feel we need a big points cushion going into the Wales game (just in case, 30-40 points+ should do it) so I would put out the strongest team out i.e. the one that will be picked to face Wales. Just return the back-row to the usual suspects Wood, Robshaw and Morgan (if Morgan is fit) and leave the rest alone. There will be time to reassess players like Ashton in the summer; right now I wouldn’t like to break up a winning team.
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 25 Feb 2013, 1:40 pm

Cumbrian, that would be my thinking too (if I was English). The priority has to be to win the game against Italy and by as many points as possible, so that the championship is all but assured going in to the game in Cardiff. Making too many changes could make the margin of victory narrower, or put the result in doubt (stranger things have happened).

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Post by Bathman_in_London Mon 25 Feb 2013, 2:54 pm

Cumbrian wrote:I feel we need a big points cushion going into the Wales game (just in case, 30-40 points+ should do it) so I would put out the strongest team out i.e. the one that will be picked to face Wales. Just return the back-row to the usual suspects Wood, Robshaw and Morgan (if Morgan is fit) and leave the rest alone. There will be time to reassess players like Ashton in the summer; right now I wouldn’t like to break up a winning team.

Agree totally, rather than get cocky and look ahead to the Wales team I want to see the best team put out. If Morgan is fit bring him back in, otherwise the only change I could see happening is Youngs coming in at hooker.

From a personal point of view, I'm not happy with the Goode/Brown combo and would remove Goode to bring in a more exciting winger. However I can see what Lancaster is trying to do and I don't think chopping/changing is part of it.

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Post by bluestonevedder Mon 25 Feb 2013, 3:03 pm

I really feel that Brown deserves a run out at fullback. He's such an exciting and electric player. I'd move him to FB, bring Strettle or Foden onto the wing (since let's face it, Wade won't be near the squad).

Wood to move back to 6 because that's his natural position, and he's utterly brilliant at it.

Morgan back to 8, Haskell on the bench covering backrow.

Lawes on the bench to cover second row, and second row only. Let us never, ever talk of his outting against France agan.

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Post by dummy_half Mon 25 Feb 2013, 3:08 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:I really feel that Brown deserves a run out at fullback. He's such an exciting and electric player. I'd move him to FB, bring Strettle or Foden onto the wing (since let's face it, Wade won't be near the squad).

Wood to move back to 6 because that's his natural position, and he's utterly brilliant at it.

Morgan back to 8, Haskell on the bench covering backrow.

Lawes on the bench to cover second row, and second row only. Let us never, ever talk of his outting against France agan.

Wouldn't be unhappy with this - more pace at the back and Foden in particular offers another playmaking option if needed. Morgan has been a big miss, as he offers so much go forward ball in hand.

Lawes at blindside? Well, not as bad as Bergomasco at scrum half, but not his finest performance. Surely proof to Lawes that his future is in the second row at international level.

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Post by Bathman_in_London Mon 25 Feb 2013, 3:19 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:I really feel that Brown deserves a run out at fullback. He's such an exciting and electric player. I'd move him to FB, bring Strettle or Foden onto the wing (since let's face it, Wade won't be near the squad).

Wood to move back to 6 because that's his natural position, and he's utterly brilliant at it.

Morgan back to 8, Haskell on the bench covering backrow.

Lawes on the bench to cover second row, and second row only. Let us never, ever talk of his outting against France agan.

I attempted to erase the offending memory after the game through the application of Doom Bar. Sadly it hasn't worked. Currently I don't see Lawes as anything other than a second row impact player, I'm not entirely convinced by him starting at lock either.

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Post by yappysnap Mon 25 Feb 2013, 3:20 pm

Is Barritt as good as we're all building him up to be.

Against France he got the ball 17 times kicked once, passed 8 and ran 8, of those 8 runs he made 6m's.

He then made 13 tackles and missed one.

So he's there for defence primarily, but honestly is that enough? It's like having a lock who can only do lineout work, or a prop who can only scrummage, in the modern game players need to do more. He has Englands most effective centre in a decade outside him and Tuilangi's hardly ever getting the ball, and when he is there's little space as the defence know they don't need to track Barrit.

Yes Barrit is like having a flanker in the backline, but why do we all suddenly think thats great? Do we not remember Tindall and Noon? Centres need to threaten the opposition just as much as defend well.

Sorry for the long post.

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Post by sickofwendy Mon 25 Feb 2013, 3:35 pm

Swapping the looseheads for the Italy game would be a good idea.marler has performed ok but I think vunipola deserves a chance to start,lancs makes the change around the 50 minute mark and I for one would like to see marler charging around as the game opens up.might do wonders for his confidence.

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Post by dummy_half Mon 25 Feb 2013, 3:36 pm

Yappy

Barritt is definitely being picked to do a job, which is mainly about defence and work at the breakdown, but he was also the guy being given the slow ball to deal with, which is a job he carried out pretty well in the first half when we were under pressure.

He does offer a bit more in attack than he has shown in the last two games, but he is not our answer to Fofana.

As for the missed tackle, given than he was up against Basteraud all day, making 92% of your tackles is pretty good.

I'm quite happy for him to start againt Italy, but if we gain the acendency that most of us are hoping for, I think it would be disappointing to not see 12trees get a good half hour.

Oh, and as for the defence not tracking him, Manu found enough holes in the French defence regardless of whether they were drifting off BB.

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Post by bluestonevedder Mon 25 Feb 2013, 3:37 pm

Bathman_in_London wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:I really feel that Brown deserves a run out at fullback. He's such an exciting and electric player. I'd move him to FB, bring Strettle or Foden onto the wing (since let's face it, Wade won't be near the squad).

Wood to move back to 6 because that's his natural position, and he's utterly brilliant at it.

Morgan back to 8, Haskell on the bench covering backrow.

Lawes on the bench to cover second row, and second row only. Let us never, ever talk of his outting against France agan.

I attempted to erase the offending memory after the game through the application of Doom Bar. Sadly it hasn't worked. Currently I don't see Lawes as anything other than a second row impact player, I'm not entirely convinced by him starting at lock either.

I too tried to erase the memory, unsuccessfully, although my potion was hobgoblin, which prooved to be too weak!

I think at current, Lawes is best left as the impact sub, though as you say bathman, he's not entirely convincing there either at the moment. His performance off the bench against Ireland was good, I just hope he can keep offering that from the bench.

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Post by Bathman_in_London Mon 25 Feb 2013, 3:40 pm

Yappy, my perception of Barritt was that be played well on saturday and I actually noticed him with his hands on the ball passing it, whereas in the past there have been times when he only seems to tackle.

I would prefer a 12 who can distribute better than he can, especially with Tuliagi there at 13. But it seems to me as if the whole backline is built around having him in the side and a key part of Lancasters plan seems to be a solid defence first and foremost.

It would be good to see twelvetrees get a decent run in the side but thats seemingly unlikely until the Argie tour, baring an injury.

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Post by bluestonevedder Mon 25 Feb 2013, 3:42 pm

dummy_half wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:I really feel that Brown deserves a run out at fullback. He's such an exciting and electric player. I'd move him to FB, bring Strettle or Foden onto the wing (since let's face it, Wade won't be near the squad).

Wood to move back to 6 because that's his natural position, and he's utterly brilliant at it.

Morgan back to 8, Haskell on the bench covering backrow.

Lawes on the bench to cover second row, and second row only. Let us never, ever talk of his outting against France agan.

Wouldn't be unhappy with this - more pace at the back and Foden in particular offers another playmaking option if needed. Morgan has been a big miss, as he offers so much go forward ball in hand.

Lawes at blindside? Well, not as bad as Bergomasco at scrum half, but not his finest performance. Surely proof to Lawes that his future is in the second row at international level.

Yeh we really missed Morgan. We had no answer to Picamoles, who was bashing away at will. I can't remember the last time I was that impressed with a ball-carrier (maybe Denton last year). Fingers crossed that Morgan's back for this weekend, otherwise, I'd look at Vunipola starting for 50 mins or so.

England contained all the other running threats seriously well (Fofana's try excluded), but Picamoles was a different kind of beast.

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Post by propdavid_london Mon 25 Feb 2013, 4:18 pm

Italy missing Parisse is a good bonus to England.
They are a a differnet animal when he isnt punching holes for them.

Hopefully Morgan is back for England. Forget Lawes and Hartley, drop them to the bench for Youngs and Haskell.

I think that SL will start Care. I remember reading somewhere that he said DC would get his chance and Italy could be that chance. Ben Youngs to offer the 60mins impact sub.

I agree with an earlier poster - if Morgan isnt fit I would love to see Billy Vaunipola drafted in.

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Post by Sugarlump Mon 25 Feb 2013, 4:36 pm

When I think about Lawes and his performance on Saturday I picture a large, dopey, over-exuberant dog that's trying really hard to please but is breaking everthing in site before taking a turd on the kitchen floor. Nothing went right for him. Sad

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Post by damage_13 Mon 25 Feb 2013, 5:06 pm

pbuk0 wrote:
yappysnap wrote:So after the trench warfare against Italy and France and in particular a few players having poor games against the French, should Lancaster be looking to experiment a little against Italy to find that cutting edge?

If he is going to make changes and use more of the squad then this is the team that i'd like to see start:

Team to face Italy:
1. Marler
2. Youngs - Just adds a tonne more agression to the Eng pack, gets through a heck of a lot of work too
3. Cole
4. Parling
5. Launchberry
6. Wood - Probably one of our best players but must be at 6!
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan - Like Wood but must be in at 8, we miss his power and line breaking massively
9. Care - Has been one of the stand out players of the Prem, needs to get a start to reward all of his work
10. Farrel
11. Brown
12. Twelvetrees - Needs to show that he can take over BB's tackling duties AND add a wider game to Englands attack, I think he'll be great TBH
13. Tuilangi
14. Wade - If we're going to have a distributer like 36 in there then we need to have some real danger out wide, Wade has a lot of hype so a lot to prove but he's in great form at the moment
15. Foden - England's lack of pace in the backs has been highlighted this tournament, Foden adds heaps of that along with experience and very good defence, he loves scoring for Eng too

16, Vunipola 17, Hartley 18, Wilson 19, Lawes 20, Haskell 21, Youngs 22, Flood 23, Goode

thumbsup thumbsup

I agree .. However I would put Brown at FB and Foden on the wing..and maybe start Vunipola instead of Marler..

yep, why drop Brown, he's one of our best players ball in hand. Put him at FB, this was the guy who just doesn't know when he's tackled and just keeps going. A massive threat and far better than one-foot-hopping goode

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Post by Sugarlump Mon 25 Feb 2013, 5:09 pm

damage_13 wrote:
pbuk0 wrote:
yappysnap wrote:So after the trench warfare against Italy and France and in particular a few players having poor games against the French, should Lancaster be looking to experiment a little against Italy to find that cutting edge?

If he is going to make changes and use more of the squad then this is the team that i'd like to see start:

Team to face Italy:
1. Marler
2. Youngs - Just adds a tonne more agression to the Eng pack, gets through a heck of a lot of work too
3. Cole
4. Parling
5. Launchberry
6. Wood - Probably one of our best players but must be at 6!
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan - Like Wood but must be in at 8, we miss his power and line breaking massively
9. Care - Has been one of the stand out players of the Prem, needs to get a start to reward all of his work
10. Farrel
11. Brown
12. Twelvetrees - Needs to show that he can take over BB's tackling duties AND add a wider game to Englands attack, I think he'll be great TBH
13. Tuilangi
14. Wade - If we're going to have a distributer like 36 in there then we need to have some real danger out wide, Wade has a lot of hype so a lot to prove but he's in great form at the moment
15. Foden - England's lack of pace in the backs has been highlighted this tournament, Foden adds heaps of that along with experience and very good defence, he loves scoring for Eng too

16, Vunipola 17, Hartley 18, Wilson 19, Lawes 20, Haskell 21, Youngs 22, Flood 23, Goode

thumbsup thumbsup

I agree .. However I would put Brown at FB and Foden on the wing..and maybe start Vunipola instead of Marler..

yep, why drop Brown, he's one of our best players ball in hand. Put him at FB, this was the guy who just doesn't know when he's tackled and just keeps going. A massive threat and far better than one-foot-hopping goode

Like it! He makes my retired ma look dynamic!

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Post by Alex_Germany Mon 25 Feb 2013, 6:44 pm

sickofwendy wrote:Swapping the looseheads for the Italy game would be a good idea.marler has performed ok but I think vunipola deserves a chance to start,lancs makes the change around the 50 minute mark and I for one would like to see marler charging around as the game opens up.might do wonders for his confidence.

The answer is both looseheads will play. Just which one plays 50 minutes and which one plays 30 minutes.

Generally you'd want your better scrummager on for 50 and your better runner on for 30.

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Post by Barney McGrew did it Mon 25 Feb 2013, 7:00 pm

1. Marler (Vunipola for last 15 – hopefully not enough time to get YC)
2. Hartley – must be given a bit of a run (Youngs for impact off bench)
3. Cole (Wilson for last 20, even Cole needs a rest)
4. Parling
5. Launchbury (Lawes for impact off bench)
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan/Haskell (if only Morgan could string together a run of games without injury, needs to be put on diet of 3 weetabix)
9. Care – deserves his 15mins of fame (well 60, then Youngs on)
10. Flood – thought he looked better than Farrell on Sat (Farrell for a 15min run out)
11. Ashton – he is class, just needs to remember it
12. Twelvetrees – deserves another go
13. Tuilagi (with or without ear)
14. Strettle (Foden for last 20) - at some stage of our ‘journey’ we have to have pace
15. Brown – why not play the best FB in England at FB


Last edited by Barney McGrew did it on Mon 25 Feb 2013, 8:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by nathan Mon 25 Feb 2013, 7:53 pm

yappysnap wrote:Is Barritt as good as we're all building him up to be.

Against France he got the ball 17 times kicked once, passed 8 and ran 8, of those 8 runs he made 6m's.

He then made 13 tackles and missed one.

So he's there for defence primarily, but honestly is that enough? It's like having a lock who can only do lineout work, or a prop who can only scrummage, in the modern game players need to do more. He has Englands most effective centre in a decade outside him and Tuilangi's hardly ever getting the ball, and when he is there's little space as the defence know they don't need to track Barrit.

Yes Barrit is like having a flanker in the backline, but why do we all suddenly think thats great? Do we not remember Tindall and Noon? Centres need to threaten the opposition just as much as defend well.

Sorry for the long post.

yappy, don't mean to be mean but it's TUILAGI, no G!

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Post by yappysnap Mon 25 Feb 2013, 11:29 pm

No worries, I think I've always spelt it with the N though...

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Post by yappysnap Mon 25 Feb 2013, 11:30 pm

damage_13 wrote:
pbuk0 wrote:
yappysnap wrote:So after the trench warfare against Italy and France and in particular a few players having poor games against the French, should Lancaster be looking to experiment a little against Italy to find that cutting edge?

If he is going to make changes and use more of the squad then this is the team that i'd like to see start:

Team to face Italy:
1. Marler
2. Youngs - Just adds a tonne more agression to the Eng pack, gets through a heck of a lot of work too
3. Cole
4. Parling
5. Launchberry
6. Wood - Probably one of our best players but must be at 6!
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan - Like Wood but must be in at 8, we miss his power and line breaking massively
9. Care - Has been one of the stand out players of the Prem, needs to get a start to reward all of his work
10. Farrel
11. Brown
12. Twelvetrees - Needs to show that he can take over BB's tackling duties AND add a wider game to Englands attack, I think he'll be great TBH
13. Tuilangi
14. Wade - If we're going to have a distributer like 36 in there then we need to have some real danger out wide, Wade has a lot of hype so a lot to prove but he's in great form at the moment
15. Foden - England's lack of pace in the backs has been highlighted this tournament, Foden adds heaps of that along with experience and very good defence, he loves scoring for Eng too

16, Vunipola 17, Hartley 18, Wilson 19, Lawes 20, Haskell 21, Youngs 22, Flood 23, Goode

thumbsup thumbsup

I agree .. However I would put Brown at FB and Foden on the wing..and maybe start Vunipola instead of Marler..

yep, why drop Brown, he's one of our best players ball in hand. Put him at FB, this was the guy who just doesn't know when he's tackled and just keeps going. A massive threat and far better than one-foot-hopping goode

Brown's still there at 11...

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Post by yappysnap Mon 25 Feb 2013, 11:33 pm

Bathman_in_London wrote:Yappy, my perception of Barritt was that be played well on saturday and I actually noticed him with his hands on the ball passing it, whereas in the past there have been times when he only seems to tackle.

I would prefer a 12 who can distribute better than he can, especially with Tuliagi there at 13. But it seems to me as if the whole backline is built around having him in the side and a key part of Lancasters plan seems to be a solid defence first and foremost.

It would be good to see twelvetrees get a decent run in the side but thats seemingly unlikely until the Argie tour, baring an injury.

Agree with that, but I just don't think he's as undroppable as people are making out. He must show better handling or else Twelvetrees should come in, who incidentally has better stats in defense this season then Barritt.

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Post by mbernz Tue 26 Feb 2013, 3:52 am

yappysnap wrote:
Bathman_in_London wrote:Yappy, my perception of Barritt was that be played well on saturday and I actually noticed him with his hands on the ball passing it, whereas in the past there have been times when he only seems to tackle.

I would prefer a 12 who can distribute better than he can, especially with Tuliagi there at 13. But it seems to me as if the whole backline is built around having him in the side and a key part of Lancasters plan seems to be a solid defence first and foremost.

It would be good to see twelvetrees get a decent run in the side but thats seemingly unlikely until the Argie tour, baring an injury.

Agree with that, but I just don't think he's as undroppable as people are making out. He must show better handling or else Twelvetrees should come in, who incidentally has better stats in defense this season then Barritt.


Barritt certainly isn't undroppable, and personally I'm more than happy for Twelvetrees to get more game time and starts, I think he is ready and the long term first choice. That said I think people have been slow to appreciate all of Barritt's abilities (yes that includes his handling) and how he is being asked to play. He's not as good a distributor as Twelvetrees (few are), but there's nothing wrong with his passing game when he employs it.

I don't know what stats you are using, but the Telegraph ones have Barritt down for 69 tackles made and 3 missed in 8 Premiership games, Twelvetrees 98 made and 15 missed in 13 games.

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Post by robbo277 Tue 26 Feb 2013, 7:14 am

This tournament is all about momentum, and if we're to go all the way to a Championship and a Grand Slam then we need to keep that momentum up against Italy, which we can do by beating Italy and beating them well.

I would pick the strongest team. There's plenty of time to experiment in the summer when some of these players will be off with the Lions, now winning the next two games is the only thing that should be on the radar.

I'm not a big fan of chopping and changing, so I wouldn't bring in M Vunipola, T Youngs, Care, Flood or Twelvetrees if I thought they would just be back on the bench for the Wales game. It's disruptive to the team.

For me the only changes are Lawes out and Morgan (if fit) or Haskell in, and potentially Goode out and Foden in. I don't think anyone is arguing that Lawes deserves reselection at 6, while I think Foden at 11 and Brown moving to 15 offers us a much better balance.

I don't think Ashton had a great game or has had a great time, so I'd definitely be looking at trying out some new wingers in Argentina to put him under pressure, but right now there's no-one that can come in for him and do a better job (in my opinion).

We must be doing something right because we've won our last 4 games. I don't think now is the time to take the foot off the gas.

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Post by Alex_Germany Tue 26 Feb 2013, 7:40 am

robbo277 wrote:This tournament is all about momentum, and if we're to go all the way to a Championship and a Grand Slam then we need to keep that momentum up against Italy, which we can do by beating Italy and beating them well.

I'd agree - the summer tour is the time to experiment. That means that any changes should make the team stronger. But that still allows some change in the backs, but it needs to be limited.

So, for all posters who have made seven or so changes, if you can make one change in the backs, which is it:
1) AN Other (the preferred is Wade) in place of Ashton.
2) Brown to FB, Goode to the bench, and a winger to Wing (Wade plays right wing)
3) 36 in for Barritt

It's been mentioned before that you don't need 36 and Goode in the team. But likewise, we probably need one of them. So really, changes 2 and 3 are complimentary, but together too much of a change.

So I would do (1) Bring in Wade for Ashton.

Then, if injuries allow, on about 50-70 minutes, depending on the score, I'd move Tuilagi to the left wing, Brown to FB, Barrit to OC, and 36 to IC.




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Post by damage_13 Tue 26 Feb 2013, 10:26 am

No.2 Our best FB should play FB and he is likely to get Ashton firing too

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Post by Bathman_in_London Tue 26 Feb 2013, 1:50 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9894698/Six-Nations-2013-England-coach-Stuart-Lancaster-warns-Chris-Ashton-he-could-be-dropped-against-Italy.html


Will be interesting to see if he does drop Ashton or this is just a public kick up the backside.

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Post by mbernz Tue 26 Feb 2013, 3:37 pm

Alex_Germany wrote:
So, for all posters who have made seven or so changes, if you can make one change in the backs, which is it:
1) AN Other (the preferred is Wade) in place of Ashton.
2) Brown to FB, Goode to the bench, and a winger to Wing (Wade plays right wing)
3) 36 in for Barritt


Wade does play right wing despite usually wearing the 11 shirt for Wasps, but for England U18s, U20s, the senior side against the Barbarians and midweek teams on tour last year he wore 11 and played on the left. I think he's pretty at home on either side and adapts to his wing partner's preferences, but maybe has a superstition about the 11 shirt because that's where he played coming up through the ranks.

In the context of possible changes Lancaster isn't considering Wade at the moment though, Strettle is the only other wing training this week, or as the above Telegraph article quotes, Lancaster is even considering playing Tuilagi there.

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Post by Hood83 Tue 26 Feb 2013, 6:48 pm

Alex_Germany wrote:
robbo277 wrote:This tournament is all about momentum, and if we're to go all the way to a Championship and a Grand Slam then we need to keep that momentum up against Italy, which we can do by beating Italy and beating them well.

I'd agree - the summer tour is the time to experiment. That means that any changes should make the team stronger. But that still allows some change in the backs, but it needs to be limited.

So, for all posters who have made seven or so changes, if you can make one change in the backs, which is it:
1) AN Other (the preferred is Wade) in place of Ashton.
2) Brown to FB, Goode to the bench, and a winger to Wing (Wade plays right wing)
3) 36 in for Barritt

It's been mentioned before that you don't need 36 and Goode in the team. But likewise, we probably need one of them. So really, changes 2 and 3 are complimentary, but together too much of a change.

So I would do (1) Bring in Wade for Ashton.

Then, if injuries allow, on about 50-70 minutes, depending on the score, I'd move Tuilagi to the left wing, Brown to FB, Barrit to OC, and 36 to IC.




I'm really undecided about our back 3 at the moment. The pros for me are that with Brown and Goode you get excellent defence (Brown head on, Goode positionally superb) and good defensive kicking. In theory you also get a very active finisher in Ashton, a 'hard-yards' carrier in Brown and a second play-maker coming into the line with Goode.

So far, we haven't seen the second set of pros much. Not sure what Foden's form is like but he can't be far away form the bench given he covers a number of positions.

Unfortunately while we're blessed with 3 excellent FBs, we have too few top notch wingers. I understand they are underrated - but I don't see Brown at wing, Goode at FB and Barrit at IC as long-term solutions. Question is do we try people out now, when we're winning, or really force them to win the shirt? Putting a few newbies with obvious potential into a winning environment seems a good way to develop them to me. But maybe it's just getting Wade et al into camp at this point?

I know we don't want to chop and change or tamper with a winning team - but do people really see out current back-line pulling up trees at a WC? I don't. Solid, very decent defensively and with a dominant pack but too little pace, intelligent running, distribution skills etc etc.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 26 Feb 2013, 8:14 pm

mbernz wrote:
Alex_Germany wrote:
So, for all posters who have made seven or so changes, if you can make one change in the backs, which is it:
1) AN Other (the preferred is Wade) in place of Ashton.
2) Brown to FB, Goode to the bench, and a winger to Wing (Wade plays right wing)
3) 36 in for Barritt


Wade does play right wing despite usually wearing the 11 shirt for Wasps, but for England U18s, U20s, the senior side against the Barbarians and midweek teams on tour last year he wore 11 and played on the left. I think he's pretty at home on either side and adapts to his wing partner's preferences, but maybe has a superstition about the 11 shirt because that's where he played coming up through the ranks.

In the context of possible changes Lancaster isn't considering Wade at the moment though, Strettle is the only other wing training this week, or as the above Telegraph article quotes, Lancaster is even considering playing Tuilagi there.


They chucked the Tuilagi rumour out earlier in the year too ... I just assumed it was smoke and mirrors then but it really would fit Lancasters obsession with picking 15 players then working out whos going where. Edit: just read the actual quote and it doesnt sound serious at all. They arent going to replace him....yet.

In terms of proper back 3 players though it doesnt matter how often you tell people any change will involve Strettle coming into the side.They just dont want to believe it, or notice that hes the form winger in the premiership currently and solves the chief moan re: Ashton ...he can defend.

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Post by mbernz Tue 26 Feb 2013, 8:48 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
mbernz wrote:
Alex_Germany wrote:
So, for all posters who have made seven or so changes, if you can make one change in the backs, which is it:
1) AN Other (the preferred is Wade) in place of Ashton.
2) Brown to FB, Goode to the bench, and a winger to Wing (Wade plays right wing)
3) 36 in for Barritt


Wade does play right wing despite usually wearing the 11 shirt for Wasps, but for England U18s, U20s, the senior side against the Barbarians and midweek teams on tour last year he wore 11 and played on the left. I think he's pretty at home on either side and adapts to his wing partner's preferences, but maybe has a superstition about the 11 shirt because that's where he played coming up through the ranks.

In the context of possible changes Lancaster isn't considering Wade at the moment though, Strettle is the only other wing training this week, or as the above Telegraph article quotes, Lancaster is even considering playing Tuilagi there.


They chucked the Tuilagi rumour out earlier in the year too ... I just assumed it was smoke and mirrors then but it really would fit Lancasters obsession with picking 15 players then working out whos going where. Edit: just read the actual quote and it doesnt sound serious at all. They arent going to replace him....yet.

In terms of proper back 3 players though it doesnt matter how often you tell people any change will involve Strettle coming into the side.They just dont want to believe it, or notice that hes the form winger in the premiership currently and solves the chief moan re: Ashton ...he can defend.

The stats aren't convincing in that regard, Strettle has made 44 tackles and missed 10 in 12 Premiership games, Ashton has made 22 and missed 5 in 8 games. With Biggs making 40 tackles and missing 11, Monye making 44 and missing 7, it seems missing around 1 in 5 tackles is pretty standard for our EPS & Saxons wingers. Wade is actually the best of the bunch, 52 made and 7 missed.

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Post by Hood83 Tue 26 Feb 2013, 9:26 pm

mbernz wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
mbernz wrote:
Alex_Germany wrote:
So, for all posters who have made seven or so changes, if you can make one change in the backs, which is it:
1) AN Other (the preferred is Wade) in place of Ashton.
2) Brown to FB, Goode to the bench, and a winger to Wing (Wade plays right wing)
3) 36 in for Barritt


Wade does play right wing despite usually wearing the 11 shirt for Wasps, but for England U18s, U20s, the senior side against the Barbarians and midweek teams on tour last year he wore 11 and played on the left. I think he's pretty at home on either side and adapts to his wing partner's preferences, but maybe has a superstition about the 11 shirt because that's where he played coming up through the ranks.

In the context of possible changes Lancaster isn't considering Wade at the moment though, Strettle is the only other wing training this week, or as the above Telegraph article quotes, Lancaster is even considering playing Tuilagi there.


They chucked the Tuilagi rumour out earlier in the year too ... I just assumed it was smoke and mirrors then but it really would fit Lancasters obsession with picking 15 players then working out whos going where. Edit: just read the actual quote and it doesnt sound serious at all. They arent going to replace him....yet.

In terms of proper back 3 players though it doesnt matter how often you tell people any change will involve Strettle coming into the side.They just dont want to believe it, or notice that hes the form winger in the premiership currently and solves the chief moan re: Ashton ...he can defend.

The stats aren't convincing in that regard, Strettle has made 44 tackles and missed 10 in 12 Premiership games, Ashton has made 22 and missed 5 in 8 games. With Biggs making 40 tackles and missing 11, Monye making 44 and missing 7, it seems missing around 1 in 5 tackles is pretty standard for our EPS & Saxons wingers. Wade is actually the best of the bunch, 52 made and 7 missed.

Sadly the 'he's small so he musn't be able to defend' concept has already stuck with Wade. Wade should be the next cab off the rank if anyone.

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Post by Barney McGrew did it Tue 26 Feb 2013, 9:33 pm

Hartley, Lawes, Foden, Haskell, Strettle and Waldrom (amongst others) returned to their clubs this weekend. I guess they need a bit of game time, surprised about Haskell.
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Post by mbernz Tue 26 Feb 2013, 10:29 pm

Hood83 wrote:
mbernz wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
mbernz wrote:
Alex_Germany wrote:
So, for all posters who have made seven or so changes, if you can make one change in the backs, which is it:
1) AN Other (the preferred is Wade) in place of Ashton.
2) Brown to FB, Goode to the bench, and a winger to Wing (Wade plays right wing)
3) 36 in for Barritt


Wade does play right wing despite usually wearing the 11 shirt for Wasps, but for England U18s, U20s, the senior side against the Barbarians and midweek teams on tour last year he wore 11 and played on the left. I think he's pretty at home on either side and adapts to his wing partner's preferences, but maybe has a superstition about the 11 shirt because that's where he played coming up through the ranks.

In the context of possible changes Lancaster isn't considering Wade at the moment though, Strettle is the only other wing training this week, or as the above Telegraph article quotes, Lancaster is even considering playing Tuilagi there.


They chucked the Tuilagi rumour out earlier in the year too ... I just assumed it was smoke and mirrors then but it really would fit Lancasters obsession with picking 15 players then working out whos going where. Edit: just read the actual quote and it doesnt sound serious at all. They arent going to replace him....yet.

In terms of proper back 3 players though it doesnt matter how often you tell people any change will involve Strettle coming into the side.They just dont want to believe it, or notice that hes the form winger in the premiership currently and solves the chief moan re: Ashton ...he can defend.

The stats aren't convincing in that regard, Strettle has made 44 tackles and missed 10 in 12 Premiership games, Ashton has made 22 and missed 5 in 8 games. With Biggs making 40 tackles and missing 11, Monye making 44 and missing 7, it seems missing around 1 in 5 tackles is pretty standard for our EPS & Saxons wingers. Wade is actually the best of the bunch, 52 made and 7 missed.

Sadly the 'he's small so he musn't be able to defend' concept has already stuck with Wade. Wade should be the next cab off the rank if anyone.

To be fair there have been issues with Wade's defence, but not to the degree that people have alluded to and they've involved the comparitively easy to fix positional errors covering larger spaces rather than problems with his commitment, strength or technique.

As I've said on the Wade thread I don't think it's right for him to be in the EPS at this stage in the tournament, but it is essential that he and other specialist wingers go on tour this summer and are focused on over the FB to wing stopgaps.

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Post by sickofwendy Tue 26 Feb 2013, 10:58 pm

Wade,may and yarde would be 3 to develop in the summer,serious potential in all of them.

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Post by dummy_half Tue 26 Feb 2013, 11:18 pm

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Hartley, Lawes, Foden, Haskell, Strettle and Waldrom (amongst others) returned to their clubs this weekend. I guess they need a bit of game time, surprised about Haskell.

Haskell being on the list suggests that at least one of Morgan and Vunipola (B) are going to be fit to start next week.

Equally surprising the other way is that 12trees hasn't been released. Indicator he could be starting (or at least get a good run out) against Italy? I guess the alternative is that there is some doubt over one of the other centres (presumably Manu after he nearly lost his ear).

Suggests the lineup for Italy could be:

1 - Marler or M Vunipola
2 - T Youngs
3 - Cole
4 - Launchbury
5 - Parling
6 - Wood
7 - Robshaw
8 - Morgan

9 - B Youngs
10 - Flood (Farrell injury doubt - not trained this week)
11 - Brown
12 - 12Trees
13 - Tuillagi
14 - Ashton
15 - Goode

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