Well Done Howler

by bedfordwelsh Wed 06 Mar 2013, 8:52 am

Thats right I am congratulating Howley on the team picked for the weekend, I have slated his selection policy in the past and still not totally convinced by him as the right man for the job but credit where credit is due I think he's got it right this time.

For me:

James should have always started and will strengthen our scrum.

Harsh on Coombs I know but AWJ is a world class player

Warburton over Tipuric is the closest of all calls but I never thought Howley had the minerals to make the big calls. I honestly thought he would have recalled him for the Italy game and give him the captaincy back but fair play he didn't and to pick him this weekend but leave captaincy with Ryan is another big (and correct) call.

Few seasons back we seen Ryan himself in the same boat being picked whilst out of form becasue he was captain and thats what was happening to Sam, now he has been picked and can just concentrate on his game and not worry about the captaincy.

by Jimpy Wed 06 Mar 2013, 8:56 am

bedfordwelsh wrote:Thats right I am congratulating Howley on the team picked for the weekend, I have slated his selection policy in the past and still not totally convinced by him as the right man for the job but credit where credit is due I think he's got it right this time.

For me:

James should have always started and will strengthen our scrum.

Harsh on Coombs I know but AWJ is a world class player
Warburton over Tipuric is the closest of all calls but I never thought Howley had the minerals to make the big calls. I honestly thought he would have recalled him for the Italy game and give him the captaincy back but fair play he didn't and to pick him this weekend but leave captaincy with Ryan is another big (and correct) call.

Few seasons back we seen Ryan himself in the same boat being picked whilst out of form becasue he was captain and thats what was happening to Sam, now he has been picked and can just concentrate on his game and not worry about the captaincy.

Erm sorry, no he isn't.

by Guest Wed 06 Mar 2013, 12:18 pm

Care to explain why he isn't?

His work rate is phenomenal, hes athletic in the loose and has good technical skills. He has been key to a lot of good Welsh performances in the past.

by munkian Wed 06 Mar 2013, 12:27 pm

Because he's not English I'm guessing.....

by lostinwales Wed 06 Mar 2013, 12:31 pm

He isnt - which is strange to say about a Lions and multiple grand slam wining player. He could have been, based on his early performances.

He is a good player but not world class. Its a phrase which is used much much too often anyways, (particularly by the Welsh).

by Morgannwg Wed 06 Mar 2013, 12:34 pm

lostinwales wrote:He isnt - which is strange to say about a Lions and multiple grand slam wining player. He could have been, based on his early performances.

He is a good player but not world class. Its a phrase which is used much much too often anyways, (particularly by the Welsh).

I agree. He had a season or two of looking world class but didn't really kick on, in fact he seemed to go backward from there.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 06 Mar 2013, 12:39 pm

If everyone was fit would AWJ be good enough to start for Wales?

If he is not amongst a countires two best players in his position it becomes hard to argue his case as World Class.

by hjumpshoe Wed 06 Mar 2013, 12:54 pm

LondonTiger wrote:If everyone was fit would AWJ be good enough to start for Wales?

If he is not amongst a countires two best players in his position it becomes hard to argue his case as World Class.

For me yes! AWJ and Ianto are my favoured pairing, Charteris pushes them close when fit. Bradley's size makes him a good back up even though he's a bit dumb and Coombes is a very welcome new addition to the squad but never 1st choice IMO.
Is AWJ world class though? no. Ask me again after the Lions tour, if he's selected, and i think it might be a different answer. Just got a feeling he's gonna have a big summer.

by Jimpy Wed 06 Mar 2013, 1:23 pm

IronMike wrote:Care to explain why he isn't?
His work rate is phenomenal, hes athletic in the loose and has good technical skills. He has been key to a lot of good Welsh performances in the past.

I can't be bothered, just read the rest of the posts in this article.

by Casartelli Wed 06 Mar 2013, 1:31 pm

Morgannwg wrote:
lostinwales wrote:He isnt - which is strange to say about a Lions and multiple grand slam wining player. He could have been, based on his early performances.

He is a good player but not world class. Its a phrase which is used much much too often anyways, (particularly by the Welsh).

I agree. He had a season or two of looking world class but didn't really kick on, in fact he seemed to go backward from there.

When you're 'world class' I guess there are a limited number of places you can 'kick on' to. The only place you can go is backwards, or downwards, depending on how you look at it. Maybe you just have to try and stay 'world class' as long as possible.

What is the accepted definition of 'world class' these days?

by **LondonTiger** Wed 06 Mar 2013, 1:46 pm

For me, to be world class you would have to be good enough to play in the World's Final Trial game before the team to face Venus was selected.

ie as good as the two best players in the world in your position (or 4 for a lock)

by bedfordwelsh Wed 06 Mar 2013, 1:52 pm

Out of curiosity who do people are the 4 best locks in the world at the moment?

by Casartelli Wed 06 Mar 2013, 1:54 pm

LondonTiger wrote:For me, to be world class you would have to be good enough to play in the World's Final Trial game before the team to face Venus was selected.

ie as good as the two best players in the world in your position (or 4 for a lock)

On current form? Or, say, recently? How does 'world class' compare to 'great' or 'legend', or ... I might do a separate thread on this, actually.

by Scrumpy Wed 06 Mar 2013, 1:54 pm

AWJ could have been world class if he joined a big club.

Very few players are world class in my opinion.

by Jimpy Wed 06 Mar 2013, 2:03 pm

munkian wrote:Because he's not English I'm guessing.....

No, its because he's not world class. Okay?

picard

by munkian Wed 06 Mar 2013, 2:57 pm

Why not and who is then ?

by **LondonTiger** Wed 06 Mar 2013, 3:00 pm

On this season's performances (Domestic, European and Ints) i would put Evans, Gray, hamilton, Launchbury, Parling and Ryan all ahead of him.

Not sure I would class any of those as world class.

by Jimpy Wed 06 Mar 2013, 3:12 pm

munkian wrote:Why not and who is then ?

What LT said... you honestly think AWJ is world class?

by BigTrevsbigmac Wed 06 Mar 2013, 3:26 pm

Picking James wasn't a conscious decision by Howley it was forced on him due to Jenkins' injury.
If Gethin was fit he would have started.

Warburton in for Tipuric gives Sam a chance to impress for Lions selection as the Blues are out of Europe. Maybe Howley is giving him a chance?

by Sugarlump Wed 06 Mar 2013, 3:35 pm

It's all so subjective...

AWJ probably was 'world class' (btw what is the definition of world class? Stand out player for one's country or in top 1-5 players of their position or is it having the even more subjective X factor???) when he was at the top of his game. The bloke is coming back from injury and he has more experience than time on his side so it's a hard thing to gauge.

I also think us England fans should be carefull what we say just in case he plays a fookin blinder in Cardiff leaving us all feeling very sorry for ourselves!

by Jimpy Wed 06 Mar 2013, 3:42 pm

Sugarlump wrote:It's all so subjective...

AWJ probably was 'world class' (btw what is the definition of world class? Stand out player for one's country or in top 1-5 players of their position or is it having the even more subjective X factor???) when he was at the top of his game. The bloke is coming back from injury and he has more experience than time on his side so it's a hard thing to gauge.

I also think us England fans should be carefull what we say just in case he plays a fookin blinder in Cardiff leaving us all feeling very sorry for ourselves!

Yes, he may even decide not to trip an English player running past this time...

World class my ass.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 06 Mar 2013, 3:44 pm

Howler didn't really do anything special selecting this team. Jenkins was out, so his bench replacement stepped into the full team. AWJ would have been first choice if not injured, and is now back in his shirt, ousting someone who has not let the side down at all. Warburton is back in the team, even though he has not really proven he deserves to be, where as Tipuric has.

Oh and my definations are as follows -:

World Class - amongst the top two or three players in your position (unless a lock in which case four to six)

Great - to have been capped 75+ times (40+ time from the old days), or to have been one of the best your nation had in their team through out your career.

Legend - to have set some sort of record for your nation, or achieved something out of the ordinary.

Clown - to constantly call players world class when they are arguably not even Lions class.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 06 Mar 2013, 3:50 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Clown - to constantly call players world class when they are arguably not even Lions class.

Agreed - but I suspect that makes all pundits and most fowns clowns. Now where is that red nose?

by Guest Wed 06 Mar 2013, 3:58 pm

If you can compete comfortably with the best in the world in your position, I think you're world class. If you are continuously destroyed as test level then you are not.

Maybe some people want to reserve the term "world class" for only the most special players but thats not how it works. Jonny Wilkinson was a world class player but he would have never played for the All Blacks.

Or we could argue semantics some more.

by maestegmafia Wed 06 Mar 2013, 4:00 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:Thats right I am congratulating Howley on the team picked for the weekend, I have slated his selection policy in the past and still not totally convinced by him as the right man for the job but credit where credit is due I think he's got it right this time.

For me:

James should have always started and will strengthen our scrum.

Harsh on Coombs I know but AWJ is a world class player

Warburton over Tipuric is the closest of all calls but I never thought Howley had the minerals to make the big calls. I honestly thought he would have recalled him for the Italy game and give him the captaincy back but fair play he didn't and to pick him this weekend but leave captaincy with Ryan is another big (and correct) call.

Few seasons back we seen Ryan himself in the same boat being picked whilst out of form becasue he was captain and thats what was happening to Sam, now he has been picked and can just concentrate on his game and not worry about the captaincy.

Interesting to see how things look so much better when a team isn't losing. Decisions bare far more apparent positive evidence.

by mckay1402 Wed 06 Mar 2013, 4:14 pm

I think AWJ is a bit over rated. I don't think he does enough in a game to be considered world class.

by maestegmafia Wed 06 Mar 2013, 4:31 pm

I think AWJ has certainly improved with age, despite luckily having some decent back up for him at both Wales and the Ospreys, when absent it is noticed. When he entered the game from the bench he really makes a difference.

by Sugarlump Wed 06 Mar 2013, 5:19 pm

Jimpy wrote:
Sugarlump wrote:It's all so subjective...

AWJ probably was 'world class' (btw what is the definition of world class? Stand out player for one's country or in top 1-5 players of their position or is it having the even more subjective X factor???) when he was at the top of his game. The bloke is coming back from injury and he has more experience than time on his side so it's a hard thing to gauge.

I also think us England fans should be carefull what we say just in case he plays a fookin blinder in Cardiff leaving us all feeling very sorry for ourselves!

Yes, he may even decide not to trip an English player running past this time...

World class my ass.

Not his finest moment agreed

by maestegmafia Wed 06 Mar 2013, 5:27 pm

Sugarlump wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
Sugarlump wrote:It's all so subjective...

AWJ probably was 'world class' (btw what is the definition of world class? Stand out player for one's country or in top 1-5 players of their position or is it having the even more subjective X factor???) when he was at the top of his game. The bloke is coming back from injury and he has more experience than time on his side so it's a hard thing to gauge.

I also think us England fans should be carefull what we say just in case he plays a fookin blinder in Cardiff leaving us all feeling very sorry for ourselves!

Yes, he may even decide not to trip an English player running past this time...

World class my ass.

Not his finest moment agreed

Certainly something that plenty of World Class players have done before.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 06 Mar 2013, 7:36 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:Thats right I am congratulating Howley on the team picked for the weekend, I have slated his selection policy in the past and still not totally convinced by him as the right man for the job but credit where credit is due I think he's got it right this time.

For me:

James should have always started and will strengthen our scrum.

Harsh on Coombs I know but AWJ is a world class player

Warburton over Tipuric is the closest of all calls but I never thought Howley had the minerals to make the big calls. I honestly thought he would have recalled him for the Italy game and give him the captaincy back but fair play he didn't and to pick him this weekend but leave captaincy with Ryan is another big (and correct) call.

Few seasons back we seen Ryan himself in the same boat being picked whilst out of form becasue he was captain and thats what was happening to Sam, now he has been picked and can just concentrate on his game and not worry about the captaincy.

Interesting to see how things look so much better when a team isn't losing. Decisions bare far more apparent positive evidence.

Maes,

Like I said,still not convinced by Howley overall and think we are where we are despite of him not because of him. For me James should have started from the first game and hopefully will do enough because we will need him against Cole next week.

by welshboii15 Wed 06 Mar 2013, 8:50 pm

A world class second row is your Paul O'Connell in his prime martin Johnson a
and is AWJ in their league hell no, does he have time on his side to become a class second row yes. Is there a second row in their league at the moment no, so AWJ comes in the group of players that are just good players along with Ian Evans, launchbury, Richie grey, DOC etc just average players

by maestegmafia Wed 06 Mar 2013, 8:59 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:Thats right I am congratulating Howley on the team picked for the weekend, I have slated his selection policy in the past and still not totally convinced by him as the right man for the job but credit where credit is due I think he's got it right this time.

For me:

James should have always started and will strengthen our scrum.

Harsh on Coombs I know but AWJ is a world class player

Warburton over Tipuric is the closest of all calls but I never thought Howley had the minerals to make the big calls. I honestly thought he would have recalled him for the Italy game and give him the captaincy back but fair play he didn't and to pick him this weekend but leave captaincy with Ryan is another big (and correct) call.

Few seasons back we seen Ryan himself in the same boat being picked whilst out of form becasue he was captain and thats what was happening to Sam, now he has been picked and can just concentrate on his game and not worry about the captaincy.

Interesting to see how things look so much better when a team isn't losing. Decisions bare far more apparent positive evidence.

Maes,

Like I said,still not convinced by Howley overall and think we are where we are despite of him not because of him. For me James should have started from the first game and hopefully will do enough because we will need him against Cole next week.

I think it is a positive step to see the situation as despite rather than because. I reinforce my constant thought on the matter that results are decided far more by players than coaches.

If the coaches had that much influence we would all need better players.

by doddieman Wed 06 Mar 2013, 9:49 pm

The tips/warbs change is the 1st non injury related change he's made I think. Could.be a brave, clever move. But nothing will really change until they change tactics, and that wont happen will it.

by rainbow-warrior Thu 07 Mar 2013, 5:38 am

Tedious petty insult to another poster removed

by maestegmafia Thu 07 Mar 2013, 8:20 am

doddieman wrote:The tips/warbs change is the 1st non injury related change he's made I think. Could.be a brave, clever move. But nothing will really change until they change tactics, and that wont happen will it.

Good point, i think you are right.

The much vaunted tactics have earned us some pretty decent results. The more confident the players are the more effective the tactics, the more effective the more open we play.

by doddieman Thu 07 Mar 2013, 8:30 am

Our tactics seem to be to take the ball into contact then recycle rather than keep the ball alive and pass out.of the tackle. Unfortunately I feel.unless we can secure quick ball it doesn't work as it should.

by Jimpy Thu 07 Mar 2013, 8:32 am

rainbow-warrior wrote:
Tedious petty insult to another poster removed

Retalitatory childish insult to another poster removed

by doddieman Thu 07 Mar 2013, 8:34 am

Our tactics seem to be to take the ball into contact then recycle rather than keep the ball alive and pass out.of the tackle. Unfortunately I feel.unless we can secure quick ball it doesn't work as it should.

by Jimpy Thu 07 Mar 2013, 8:35 am

IronMike wrote:If you can compete comfortably with the best in the world in your position, I think you're world class. If you are continuously destroyed as test level then you are not.

Maybe some people want to reserve the term "world class" for only the most special players but thats not how it works. Jonny Wilkinson was a world class player but he would have never played for the All Blacks.Or we could argue semantics some more.

Clever boy, since he's English that was never likely now was it?

We don't have to talk semantics. In 2003, Jonny Wilkinson was the best number 10 in the world, playing in the team ranked number one in the world. Every coach from every nation that mattered acknowleged this simple fact. Therefore, he was World Class.

If you are in the top 4 or 5 (as a second row) in the world, you're World class. Its a relatively simple equation, and what is even more easy to do is categorise AWJ. He is not world class.

by maestegmafia Thu 07 Mar 2013, 8:38 am

Hey Jimpy...!

Its probably a great time for you to bugger off and start your own thread on who is and isn't world class somewhere else.

Its kinda getting in the way of this thread.

Cheers

by doddieman Thu 07 Mar 2013, 8:41 am

Our tactics seem to be to take the ball into contact then recycle rather than keep the ball alive and pass out.of the tackle. Unfortunately I feel.unless we can secure quick ball it doesn't work as it should.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Thu 07 Mar 2013, 8:41 am

Jimpy wrote:
rainbow-warrior wrote:
Tedious petty insult to another poster removed

Retaliatory childish insult to another poster removed

Grow up the pair of you

by BigTrevsbigmac Thu 07 Mar 2013, 8:45 am

doddieman wrote:Our tactics seem to be to take the ball into contact then recycle rather than keep the ball alive and pass out.of the tackle. Unfortunately I feel.unless we can secure quick ball it doesn't work as it should.

I agree. When was the last time Wales really 'played more openly'? Seems like a long time ago.

by Jimpy Thu 07 Mar 2013, 8:51 am

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
rainbow-warrior wrote:
Tedious petty insult to another poster removed

Retaliatory childish insult to another poster removed

Grow up the pair of you

Surely, if there weren't tedious petty insults to other posters in the first place, there would be no need for retaliatory childish insults to that poster required....?

Just saying.

angel

by maestegmafia Thu 07 Mar 2013, 8:51 am

doddieman wrote:Our tactics seem to be to take the ball into contact then recycle rather than keep the ball alive and pass out.of the tackle. Unfortunately I feel.unless we can secure quick ball it doesn't work as it should.

The halfbacks need to have more patience than they invariably do. We maintain a great deal of pressure on sides playing the way we do. It tires them defensively, gaps open and the game loosens. To be fair we haven't played a poor team in two years. There is little between any team in the top 10 of the IRB rankings after NZ.

The opportunity for a game to open up is less, if it does it is more a reflection on one side under performing due to an spate of injuries or illness rather than the ability of the team in relation to tactics.

by Jimpy Thu 07 Mar 2013, 8:54 am

maestegmafia wrote:Hey Jimpy...!

Its probably a great time for you to off and start your own thread on who is and isn't world class somewhere else.

Its kinda getting in the way of this thread.

Cheers

No, I think i'll stay, I was, after all, debating the accuracy of the original poster's claims. On an open forum, with a valid argument.

by maestegmafia Thu 07 Mar 2013, 9:01 am

Jimpy wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:Hey Jimpy...!

Its probably a great time for you to off and start your own thread on who is and isn't world class somewhere else.

Its kinda getting in the way of this thread.

Cheers

No, I think i'll stay, I was, after all, debating the accuracy of the original poster's claims. On an open forum, with a valid argument.

You would rather try to further derail this thread than start your own on your theory's on who is and isn't World Class topic?

by Jimpy Thu 07 Mar 2013, 9:10 am

maestegmafia wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:Hey Jimpy...!

Its probably a great time for you to off and start your own thread on who is and isn't world class somewhere else.

Its kinda getting in the way of this thread.

Cheers

No, I think i'll stay, I was, after all, debating the accuracy of the original poster's claims. On an open forum, with a valid argument.

You would rather try to further derail this thread than start your own on your theory's on who is and isn't World Class topic?

Was i the only one disputing the original poster's claims? Do you have a problem with them? It doesn't look like it. Of course, I suppose you've never visited an article regarding English team selection and made comments that you hoped would derail it?

Please! My opinion is as valid regarding the poster's claims.

by maestegmafia Thu 07 Mar 2013, 9:13 am

What a waste of a good thread...!

by rainbow-warrior Thu 07 Mar 2013, 9:15 am

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
rainbow-warrior wrote:
Tedious petty insult to another poster removed

Retaliatory childish insult to another poster removed

Grow up the pair of you

Aw bless seems as if Pete is focused on just a few petty posters but leaves his mates alone ...good for you pete.

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