Third Tier Nation wins 6Nations .... Again!!

I know there will be those who quite rightly state that it is the same for every team but there is still something not right in the following.

The 2011 RWC semi finalists who subsequently showed that they are unquestionably the strongest team in the northern hemisphere by scoring back to back 6nations Championships in 2012 and 2013, have ended up ranked a third tier seed for the 2015 RWC and have the unenviable task of playing Australia and England at HQ. It is true that Wales suffered a temporary deterioration in results for a short period of time which saw them drop from 5th to 9th but have subsequently climbed back up to 5th.
Is it sheer bad luck that this happened at the precise time when the draw was made THREE years before the tournament or is the ranking system flawed?

You lose 8 matches in a row and you ranking drops - surely that is right.

Doing the draw so far ahead of the tournament is what creates the mess.

Yeah bad timing for Wales. England and Australia will not be overly excited either.

Italy beat France and Ireland who are both in their group at the world cup!

I'm not worried about the rankings or the world cup, there is a long, long way to go yet and a lot of things will change in the next few years.

Worry about the World Cup when it happens.

as i said on another thread the format of the six nations might be to blame.

the top three teams should play a home and away series. the top two should play off in a grand final. the third team should be demoted to the lower tier.

the bottom three teams should play off in a parallel home and away series with the winner promoted for next year.

im sorry but wales inconsistency means there is no way they would win should they play england home and away this year. its merely the draw that dictates the six nations winner.

might sound like sour grapes but i firmly believe it is true.

You can't blame the ranking system for our inability to play well consistently. We have no one but ourselves to blame for the World Cup draw. We were terrible in the Autumn. It's very frustrating being a Welsh fan knowing how well we can play - but sitting through a lot of poor performances. Great teams play well consistently and learn to win when not playing well.

It's our fault where we were and we'll just have to deal with it with no chips on our shoulders.

It would be bad luck if you didnt know the years results counted towards the seeding...but you did! Solutions simple...dont play badly in the seedings year. Its almost akin to...choking...

Rankings and who's in your world cup group DON'T matter.

We want a strong group. If you can't qualify from a strong group then you don't deserve the world cup anyway.

GloriousEmpire wrote:as i said on another thread the format of the six nations might be to blame.

the top three teams should play a home and away series. the top two should play off in a grand final. the third team should be demoted to the lower tier.

the bottom three teams should play off in a parallel home and away series with the winner promoted for next year.

im sorry but wales inconsistency means there is no way they would win should they play england home and away this year. its merely the draw that dictates the six nations winner.

might sound like sour grapes but i firmly believe it is true.

You get as much as you can from whatever you can even if it includes fantasy. What have England done in the last 10 years? Not 12 months ago we beat you away, we beat you on a regular basis and it's 3-0 now. We have gone 360 mins without giving away a try, you have gone 160 without scoring one! Where exactly should anyone fear England? England very inconsistant, unless you can argue otherwise for the last 10 yeras??

Last 3 wales England matches, no tries for England
Last 3 wales France matches, no tries for France

GloriousEmpire wrote:as i said on another thread the format of the six nations might be to blame.

im sorry but wales inconsistency means there is no way they would win should they play england home and away this year. its merely the draw that dictates the six nations winner.

might sound like sour grapes but i firmly believe it is true.

"No way" is a bit strong considering we beat you at Twickers last season and we have won 3 away games this season.

Re the rankings, WRU have to accept some blame for arranging the 4th Autumn International although I suppose they weren't to know we were going to have such a bad run of results.

You seem to have ruled out the possibility that this was all part of Wales' master plan. Lose twelfty matches to Australia in a row, see England surge up the rankings and then end up in the same group as them. Both teams go in thinking Wales are easy beats and hey presto Wales go through to the quarter finals top of their pool.

The only foot you put wrong was winning by so many. You just needed to win by 7 and then England would've thought they were robbed by the ref.

t1000advancedprototype wrote:Last 3 wales England matches, no tries for England
Last 3 wales France matches, no tries for France

brilliant stuff by wales.

Now do yourself and the rest of the NH a favour and get some scalps in the SH. your not bringing enough ranking points back here..

Stop bottling against them..

mystiroakey wrote:

t1000advancedprototype wrote:Last 3 wales England matches, no tries for England
Last 3 wales France matches, no tries for France

brilliant stuff by wales.

Now do yourself and the rest of the NH a favour and get some scalps in the SH. your not bringing enough ranking points back here..

Stop bottling against them..

Now now mysti... dont encourage them...

Well they are a good team. We all knew that. they just have a mental issue v australia and other SH teams.

If every NH team got up for a game in the way they can occasionally v England. The rankings would be a lot closer.

Fact.

Mystrioakey

Hopefully Wales can push on and beat a few of the teams that we seem to have issues with. As well as Australia, SA and NZ I would like to see us have a bit more dominance over Argentina and Samoa.

These things take time I guess.

I was very happy to see this Welsh squad finally performing at the high level they set at the RWC. Since then we have struggled to replicate the intensity.

Potential for some big tier upsets at the next WC now.

Italy beat both their 1st and 2nd tier pool rivals.

Wales have a lot of experience and most of that will still be there in 2 years, Wales could well be favorites against Aus or England in 2 years.

I think you will.

But I have said wales have turned the corner about 10 times over the last 10 years and then they turn into mush..

As an england fan I have know got over the loss. I believe that we will pick up where we left off tbh. We got abit stuck from the ireland game on. i was worried after that game. I think the fact that we kept on winning dispite very average wins was key to our big loss(well that and wales dominance- Just like the Ireland game in 11. i cant see how even a full strength england team could have won v wales tbh!)

But thats what us English have to put up with. Superhero perfomrnaces full of pride and passion. Its more like a war with them games away tbh..

Mystrioakey is right though. We do seem to have a mental issue with SH teams. We really do need to take it up another level now. In regards to the rankings, we are where we are. Our fault, lets just deal with it on the pitch!

At the moment you have a mental game v England and France that is pretty much as good as its bad v SH.

Rugby is a strange game. It is about controlling that head game. How can teams get the passion to beat teams out of there comfort range.

Anyone thinking SA and AUS are looking vunerable should think again. They both have youngish sides and the talent coming through is better then ever... I myself see last years emerging players in SA as good as the class of 04.. and more talent is coming through this year too.

I think the RC this year will be epic. I fancy AUS to win the title... always happens in lions years.

For the chasing pack of FRA, ENG & WAL its a daunting task.

I cant see Aus getting past SA and NZ. i think they are in a class above tbh.

But hey I may be wrong.. I would put Aus in a pack with the rest of us lot

The way the brumbies tore into the Sharks on the weekend shows that AUS are a real match for everyone... and the Brumbies hardly feature in current AUS squads.

The Sharks are with the Stormers the best SA sides in SR this season.

Last year AUS had terrible injuries. At full strength they are a real force.

Frankly that's harsh on Australia oakey. Imagine you had the injuries they had last season and then playing SA at home. They somehow found a way to win. They're masters at minimising their weaknesses and accentuating their strengths. They are always seen as the weak member of the big SH trio but time and time again they find a way to surprise you. Just because the NH teams beat them the most doesn't mean they're your equivalent. They still win far more than they lose.

One thing's for sure, the 4N will be a lot closer this year if injuries don't become a key problem.

All your doing is being harsh on the NH lot kia.

aus have a slightly beeter win ratio v england. that doesnt put them in another class at all.

Wales have performed shocking against them recently. And should won a few of them..

Can you realy hand on your heart say aus are on a nopther level to france,eng and wales. Seriously!!

I am not putting the aussies down at all btw . just saying how it is.,. This is a squad game and you sooner you understand that the better. Injury talk is for losers~!

What Australia lack is depth. Their Super franchises show this. They have one team that dominates and the rest are average.

There have been some notable victories by the NH over Australia. I understand they're the team you think you can beat, especially if you get on top of them in the forwards. But how do you explain then that Australia have the best record against SA in the past 5 years given their forwards are so powder puff? Australia were there to be taken last autumn and only France capitalised on their injuries. Just when you think they're easy beats like in Brisbane last year they bite you in the behind. Please don't make me pay any more compliments to them.

kia I am not putting Aus down pal.. I am saying they are behind SA and NZ. Your trying to make out like I am bigging up the NH teams by putting Aus on our level. thats the difference.

Your the one that only rates France from the NH arnt you

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:What Australia lack is depth. Their Super franchises show this. They have one team that dominates and the rest are average.

There have been some notable victories by the NH over Australia. I understand they're the team you think you can beat, especially if you get on top of them in the forwards. But how do you explain then that Australia have the best record against SA in the past 5 years given their forwards are so powder puff? Australia were there to be taken last autumn and only France capitalised on their injuries. Just when you think they're easy beats like in Brisbane last year they bite you in the behind. Please don't make me pay any more compliments to them.

Ahem scotland ahem

mystiroakey wrote:kia I am not putting Aus down pal.. I am saying they are behind SA and NZ. Your trying to make out like I am bigging up the NH teams by putting Aus on our level. thats the difference.

Your the one that only rates France from the NH arnt you

Hmm, I wonder what made me do that. Maybe your comment: I would put Aus in a pack with the rest of us lot

All I'm doing is putting Australia above the NH teams.

yourself.

I think when AUS have all their individuals fit and ready will be the team to beat this year.. last year they had so many of their top players out injured.

think about the following team if they can get it together on a pitch (and I'm not as schooled up on them as someone like linebreaker).

Pack - Alexander, Moore, Robinson, Horwill, Douglas, Higginbottom. Hooper, Auelua

Backs - Genia, Cooper, Ioane, O'Connor, Ashley-Cooper, Mogg, Beale.

That's a strong pack... any team would do well to dominate them, they have a solid lineout, strong ball carriers in higginbottom and Auelua and a Pocock equal poacher in Hooper.
The backline... well thats the best backline collectively in world rugby at the moment.

Kia -Aus are rightfully 3rd, thats it.. Class above - I doubt it

I fancy them to No.1 by the end of the RC.

fa0019 wrote:I fancy them to No.1 by the end of the RC.

well thats the thing- they at least have a chance of it, We dont have that chance in the NH!

well they're in that position because they are always consistent even with heavy injuries.

With the momentum of the lions tour I think they'll fancy beating NZ in the first game.. and in the RC once a teams gets a couple of wins under their belt it becomes difficult to surpass them.

The only reason they're behind SA is their high profile losses to teams like Scotland, Samoa and Ireland. They have a better record against SA than any other team in the past 5 years so that puts them in the same class as at least SA. Didn't see England win in SA with their 3 tests last year. Going by Australia's record, they would've won at least once and probably twice.

You had the chance in June and only Scotland won last year.

beaten the bokke 7 out of last 9 matches... they have our number so to speak.

and somehow everyone thinks they can smash AUS with a monster pack.... SA are the monster pack.. everyone else is in their shadow... yet AUS time and time again have shown they can deal with the route 1 and the rough stuff.

How people think those are the right tactics to play them I don't know.

Thought I'd add also that in those last 4 years since AUS have held their 7 in 9 record vs. the boks they have put 8 in 8 vs. Wales.

So out of the 2 biggest route 1, pack dominance orientated sides they have a 15 from 17 record for the last 4 years.

Not bad for a team who are constantly written off as weak upfront and easily exploited.

If the Lions play this way... they will come home with a series defeat.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:The only reason they're behind SA is their high profile losses to teams like Scotland, Samoa and Ireland. They have a better record against SA than any other team in the past 5 years so that puts them in the same class as at least SA. Didn't see England win in SA with their 3 tests last year. Going by Australia's record, they would've won at least once and probably twice.

You had the chance in June and only Scotland won last year.

how the heck is head to head going to work. You will go around in circles for ever!

Its about what teams are best against all comers. many teams have the number on the other single sides..

France smashed Aus into the last decade end of the year. But they had no chance v england last game..

England smashed NZ into last century yet NZ smashed SA and aus last year. SA smashed england. Wales smashed england. Aus smashed Wales.

Smashed NZ into last century. Almost till the last time England beat us.

My dear friend, it is exactly my point talking about head to head matches. If you feel SA and NZ are a club among themselves, my point is that Australia deserves to be mentioned within that club because they have beaten SA more times in recent times than they have lost. England beat NZ last year but have failed to do so previously for ten years, hence they are not in the same league as NZ. The only NH team that has beaten Australia more in recent times is Scotland. What does that tell us? Australia probably didn't respect them enough. The fact that they have beaten SA many more times than what they have lost tells us they are within the very club you talk about because their head to head count demands it.

It's not rocket science. Australia have consistently been 2nd and 3rd in the rankings for a reason. You seem incapable of seeing that point.

Coming from the poster that ranks france way above england- even though there head to head is worse against england(38%) than englands(40%) is over aus!!

Maybe because France beat NZ more than once every ten years and have a better showing than England against SA. The exclusive club you refer to.

thats only because you play them more. You scared of playing england or something

NZ are the exclusive club Kia..

You know that as well as I do. You are just bigging up the sh in the same way i am trying to big up the NH.

You are rightfully the best and SA and Aus are in there own club..

However ask a frenchman or englishman who they would rather play against for a win. It would be Aus..

See that wasn't so hard was it mate?

Look at me..

Bigging up the NH after England got ruined..

I am European and Proud mate...(untill england win something again )

You're not quite there yet but there's still two years until 2015. I'm a proud European as well mate. It's just that I wear my taiaha on the inside. The NH sides will prove a real handful in 2015 I have no doubt and Australia in particular will be pooping themselves with their group especially after last weekend's result.

Impossible Standards wrote:Mystrioakey is right though. We do seem to have a mental issue with SH teams. We really do need to take it up another level now. In regards to the rankings, we are where we are. Our fault, lets just deal with it on the pitch!

Yep I do agree we do have a mental issue with the SH, but I also think they have a superior mental attitude against us (more than against England or France). Even though over recent years we have proved to be an equal or better of them, other teams do not have the same respect for us. Teams such as Arg and Samoa, would look at us and think yes we can defo win that and take us on. And the big 3 probably dont even contemplate losing to us.