Sky Sports P4P list - You agree?

First topic message reminder :

Only other inclusion for me would be Bernard Hopkins maybe. Agree with this overall?


1.Floyd Mayweather

From: United States
Age: 36
Division: Welterweight
Record: 43-0


Few could argue about the number one choice, who remains undefeated and largely untouched in a 43-fight career. Dominant at welterweight, Floyd is also a two-time and current light-middleweight title holder after his most recent victory over a peak-form Miguel Cotto. A five-weight world champion in all, it's disappointing for fight fans he has only been out four times in five years. And it now looks highly unlikely the much-talked about scrap with Manny Pacquiao will ever take place, with the Filipino arguably now past his prime and talks seemingly in deadlock. But this is boxing - so you never know!

2.Andre Ward

From: United States
Age: 29
Division: Super-middleweight
Record: 26-0


The self-styled 'Son of God' comes in second owing to his domination of a stacked super-middleweight division. Stylish victories over Mikkel Kessler, Arthur Abraham and Carl Froch have seen the American clean up at 168lb, with only his lack of marketability holding him back in the superstar stakes. Chad Dawson - a genuine P4P contender - came down from light-heavy to challenge Ward but hardly won a round, S.O.G putting him down three times before the referee stopped it in the 10th round. He shares a similar problem to Mayweather in that there are not many around to offer a serious challenge.


3.Sergio Martinez

From: Argentina
Age: 37
Division: Middleweight
Record: 50-2-2


'Maravilla' served a lengthy apprenticeship in his native Argentina before stepping up to middleweight, where he has etched his name as a future Hall of Famer. Two fights with Paul Williams was where he finally gained recognition, losing a 12-round war before scoring a vengeful second round knockout in the return with a victory over Kelly Pavlik sandwiched in between for good measure. British pair Darren Barker and Matthew Macklin were both competitive for 11 rounds but it was the victory over Julio Cesar Chavez that secured his legacy. A slight favourite beforehand, Sergio dominated 'Junior' for 11 rounds before being tagged and seriously hurt in the final session. He got through it - somehow - to remain the man to beat at 160lb, but he will be 38 when he returns to the ring against England's Martin Murray in April.


4.Nonito Donaire

From: Phillipines
Age: 30
Division: Super-bantamweight
Record: 30-1


Rarely do the 'little guys' get their dues in the big picture but surely the 'Filipino Flash' is worthy of a top-5 rating after tearing through four weight classes in as many highly active years. Pacquiao's successor is willing to take on all-comers, rarely backing away from a challenge. This year he stepped up to super-bantamweight to beat ex-champ Wilfredo Vazquez and then unify the WBO and IBF titles with a shutout success against Jeffrey Mathebula. Three months later his stock rose even further when stopping quality operator Toshiaki Nishioka in nine rounds. It can only be hoped that he and Abner Mares are finally matched in 2013.


5.Wladimir Klitschko

From: Ukraine
Age: 36
Division: Heavyweight
Record: 58-3


Heavyweights, perhaps more than any other, are defined by their era and sadly for 'Dr Steelhammer' his is undeniably a poor one. Since his defence was shored up and his suspect chin protected, Wlad has been imperious in collecting each and every belt going bar the WBC title held by big brother Vitali. Victories over former cruiserweight bosses David Haye and Jean-Marc Mormeck demonstrated just how difficult it is to come to terms with the 6ft 6in brute from Kiev. Technically gifted with a piston for a jab and a jack-hammer for a right, Klitschko dispatched former victim Tony Thompson inside six and then schooled Mariusz Wach in what was his busiest year in a while. That his old rivals are doing the rounds again tells you all you need to know about the current class of big men. It's a shame that only his brother shapes up to Wlad in terms of size and stature - although huge Brits Tyson Fury and David Price are looming large.


6.Juan Manuel Marquez

From: Mexico
Age: 39
Division: Light-welterweight
Record: 55-6-1


A four-weight world champion (if you count the latest WBO interim' strap), the career of 'Dinamita' will be defined by what must surely end as a quadrilogy with Manny Pacquiao. In their first three fights, Marquez had only a draw to show for his efforts despite many critics giving the Mexican all three verdicts. But despite being six years his senior, we had already argued Marquez was holding his form better. A lop-sided defeat to the much-bigger Mayweather in '09 aside, he had dispatched Juan Diaz, Michael Katsidis and kept busy with a shutout win against Serhiy Fedchenko for that WBO bauble at 140lb. We felt a clear-cut win against Pacquiao would see him jump above his old rival in the rankings - and that's exactly what we got! Marquez will feel his stunning knockout erases the memory of the results that went before, and why not.


7.Timothy Bradley

From: United States
Age: 29
Division: Light-welterweight
Record: 30-0


Whatever 'Desert Storm' does in the ring he divides opinion, and it was still the case after securing a thrilling if narrow victory over Ruslan Provodnikov. Bradley had found it difficult to find a suitable opponent after his controversial win over Manny Pacquiao last summer, but nine months on he won over fight fans by getting off the canvas to beat the heavy-handed Russian. Previously swerved by fans and TV executives alike for his less-than-thrilling style, Bradley opted to mix it with Provodnikov despite being hurt in the first two rounds and again in the 12th. The fight of the year candidate will surely see the American's stock rise and secure further big-money contests in the future.


8.Manny Pacquiao

From: Phillipines
Age: 34
Division: welterweight
Record: 54-5-2


Pac Man has been in more big fights than Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray combined, but at 34 the once dominant Filipino is now looking shop-worn. Not since he re-arranged the face of Antonio Margarito in 2010 have we seen the Pacquiao of old - victories over a shot Shane Mosley and Juan Manuel Marquez (contentious - again) proved little, while a highly controversial defeat to Timothy Bradley was later overturned by a WBO panel. But it was the fourth meeting with Marquez that told us how far Manny has slipped from the days when he scorched through the divisions taking out many big names on the way. And while Manny was a round up on all the cards the fact he walked onto a massive right hand suggests his star is very much on the wane.


9.Adrien Broner

From: United States
Age: 23
Division: Lightweight
Record: 26-0


Already floating around the fringes of many a P4P list, 'The Problem' leapt into the top 10 after a thrilling dismantling of Antonio DeMarco to claim the WBC lightweight title. It's not long since 23-year-old Broner became world champion at super-featherweight, but five stoppage victories later many critics are already talking about the Ohio native in such glowing terms that his succession to Floyd Mayweather as the P4P king seems only a matter of time. Plucky Welshman Gavin Rees did himself proud but the American broke him down with dazzling handspeed and immense power at the weight. Broner wants to unify the belts against Ricky Burns before moving up - those at light-welter will be looking anxiously in their wing-mirrors.




10.Carl Froch

From: England
Age: 35
Division: Super-middleweight
Record: 30-2


Top domestic pugilist Froch just about deserves his place in the 10 after performing at the highest level for the last four years, during which he has been involved in nine title fights. The Cobra has put defeat to Andre Ward behind him by winning the IBF strap from the previously undefeated Lucian Bute and then defending it in style against Yusaf Mack. However, the Ward loss still rankles with the Nottingham hero as does his only other defeat to Mikkel Kessler. Froch will be looking to avenge both in the next 12 months, while a rematch with Bute and/or a mandatory defence against Thomas Oosthuizen is also on the cards. The Briton will need to remain on his A-game in 2013 despite his advancing years to retain a hold in the world's top-10.

Broner inside the top ten is a speculative call at this stage I think, he looks a likely future p4p star, but you can't include him just yet based on record. I don't know if it's promotional reasons, but he seems to be missing out on all the potentially dangerous opponents. Firstly Gamboa lower down, then Rios and Matthysse. I'm not suggesting he's a cherrypicker, but his choice of opponents has put him under the microscope now for me.


Bradley drops out of the top ten for me too after last Saturday. Mikey Garcia looks like a guy who's going to ease his way into these kind of lists in the not too distant future.

Only thing set in stone would be the top two I think. Mayweather and Ward. If Ward could just get himself on a plane, then who knows, he might one day find himself top of the pile. Not sure that matters to him too much though, he doesn't got Mayweather's kind of ego.

So you have Ward clearly ahead of Donaire?

Darchinyan, Nishioka and Montiel are as far as i'm concerned a better set of wins than Froch, Kessler and Dawson while his wins below that blow Wards secondary wins out the water. Add in the fact he's a better boxer, more active and more entertaining to watch he has more than cemented 2nd place behind Mayweather.

Gents I agree on broner getting in there on talent alone too.

I think I would have mares in there, his resume is fairly impressive

Before I add anything, I should say that I've only seen Donaire live once and his obsequious handling of Larry Merchant was hardly endearing. So those two factors could be clouding my judgement.


If I'm honest, although below featherweight I'm struggling, I need convincing on his opposition. Darchinyan always stood out as a good win to me, but less so in recent months. Nishioka was an impressive display but again was Nishioka really ever that good? Correct me if I'm wrong on that, I know you will. Montiel a good win but tailored stylistically. Arce tailored and shot. Of course this may just all be Donaire being so good.


To displace Ward, I'd like to see Donaire preside in the division he now currently fights at. And maybe a good win or two in the division above. That would really make me sit up.


Ward is clear number one in what is a very strong division and you just can't pick holes. Bar maybe he won a tournament which wasn't a level playing field, one that was conspicuously more demanding for some than it was others. Not his fault of course, but imagine the European Cup and Real play all their qualifiers at home.

Also between Darch, Nishioka and Montiel, which win of theirs, collectively, is comparable to that of Dawson's over Hopkins?


In fact, which win of theirs is better than Ward's over Froch?

Montiels over Hasegawa would have to be considered better than Dawsons over Hopkins who we must remember was 47 when he lost. Dawson lost Pascal who lost to Hopkins so to be honest I don't see it as set in stone that he's the clear number one at 175lbs.

Hasegawa clearly a better fighter than Hopkins pound for pound..........



Seriously though, I just prefer Ward's set of wins, never saying I'm right you're wrong. Would you perhaps agree it's certainly not an open and shut case and we'll leave it at that, i'm hungry.

I think Donaire is quite comfortably ahead of Ward personally, competes in a less glamourous division but has the far stronger record.

Yes I would say the Hasegawa that Montiel beat was a better P4P fighter than the Hopkins that Dawson.

Ok.

Herman Jaggery wrote:Before I add anything, I should say that I've only seen Donaire live once and his obsequious handling of Larry Merchant was hardly endearing. So those two factors could be clouding my judgement.

I miss oxring.

You cant argue much with that list going by records, personally though i think Ward is the best p4p fighter in the world and Donaire is number 2. I think Floyd has slipped a bit and for me is probably the 3rd best now, but until he gets beat its fair enough to rate him a 1 and he has earned the accolade.

hogey wrote:You cant argue much with that list going by records, personally though i think Ward is the best p4p fighter in the world and Donaire is number 2. I think Floyd has slipped a bit and for me is probably the 3rd best now, but until he gets beat its fair enough to rate him a 1 and he has earned the accolade.

Who/what on Broner's record justifies his inclusion?

Think I would have donaire at number two. A combination of his stacked cv, how often he fights and how clynical he can be at times

TopHat24/7 wrote:

hogey wrote:You cant argue much with that list going by records, personally though i think Ward is the best p4p fighter in the world and Donaire is number 2. I think Floyd has slipped a bit and for me is probably the 3rd best now, but until he gets beat its fair enough to rate him a 1 and he has earned the accolade.

Who/what on Broner's record justifies his inclusion?

Not so much his record, which in fairness aint bad for such a young fighter, more the fact i have eyes and watching him he is without question one of the best 10 fighters in the world and may well be in the top 3 in a year.

I don't think there's much to separate Donaire and Ward right now, to be honest; it's down to personal preference as much as anything else.

Donaire's got the deeper record, which you'd expect given that he's been on the scene a little longer, but Ward's form has been better in the past couple of years (at his very, very best against Froch and Dawson, for instance, while Donaire wasn't quite his usual self against Narvaev, Vasquez Jr etc). Donaire's got the edge in terms of being nice and busy, while Ward's inactivity and injury woes have left us worrying that he might never achieve his full potential.

As to who is the better boxer, again that's a subjective call. Ward's the better technician; Donaire does make errors and doesn't box in a way you'd teach youngsters, but gets away with it due to his insane speed and top-notch power. He doesn't use the jab much, pulls back from punches relying on reflexes etc, takes chances when he throws his right hand etc. Ward doesn't quite have that same 'wow' factor in the way he fights but he's an excellent all-rounder rather than being sensational in just one or two areas. You kind of suspect that if someone can bang a heavy jab on Donaire then they've got half a chance (even if that is clutching at straws!), whereas it's hard to see how anyone at 168 or 175 could get the better of Ward right now.

If you're a purist you'll go for Ward, if you like fighters who bring that little bit of something different to the sport you'll go for Donaire. Basically nothing in it.

I went for Donaire at number two ahead of Ward, simply because he's put in two high-class showings since Ward's last fight (could well be three by next month), but if Ward beats a good name later this year and can improve even further on his showings against Froch and Dawson, then it'd be damn hard to split them, I think.

hogey wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

hogey wrote:You cant argue much with that list going by records, personally though i think Ward is the best p4p fighter in the world and Donaire is number 2. I think Floyd has slipped a bit and for me is probably the 3rd best now, but until he gets beat its fair enough to rate him a 1 and he has earned the accolade.

Who/what on Broner's record justifies his inclusion?

Not so much his record, which in fairness aint bad for such a young fighter, more the fact i have eyes and watching him he is without question one of the best 10 fighters in the world and may well be in the top 3 in a year.

No doubt he's super talented, I was just picking up on the point that you said "going by records", which doesn't favour Broner at all. He has a very good fighter in DeMarco but that's it. Next is Ponce de Leon who he struggled against (as opposed to Gamboa who schooled him). On records Gamboa should undoubtedly be ahead of Broner.

Aherm chris nice piece but its ward not dawson

Very good! :-)

spencerclarke wrote:Aherm chris nice piece but its ward not dawson

Looks like I'm developing some kind of brain glitch when it comes to words featuring Ws and Ds!

Now corrected.