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England selection issues

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Post by Kenny Sun 02 Jun 2013, 11:38 am

Roy Hodgson has given an interview bemoaning the lack of talent available for selection

England coach Roy Hodgson admits that their striking pool is not strong enough.

Going into their friendly in Brazil, Hodgson is limited to just two strikers in Wayne Rooney and Jermain Defoe - although he also has the option of pushing Theo Walcott into attack.

"If you look at the Premier League most of the strikers are foreigners. We pick from the players that we have."
Roy Hodgson

But with Danny Welbeck, Andy Carroll and Daniel Sturridge all sidelined by injury, Hodgson admits that England's lack of depth up-front has been highlighted.

"We're not winning enough games,' said Hodgson.

"But one of the areas where we've been unfortunate is in the choice and availability of front players. Three of the front players I would like to have brought here have not been available for selection.

"The other night one that we pinned high hopes on, Daniel Sturridge, had to go off injured.

"We would like a stronger pool of front players to choose from, so when one or two get injured we still have (some) left.

"If you look at the Premier League most of the strikers are foreigners. We pick from the players that we have and I thought picking Wayne Rooney and Sturridge was a very exciting attacking duo."



I find this rather strange to be honest that he can moan when he basically picks the England team from a pool of 6 clubs , there are more teams Roy with English players ................give then a chance , that was always what friendlys were for .... giving new players a game to see if they are good enough
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Post by Crimey Sun 02 Jun 2013, 11:51 am

To be fair he does kind of have a point, if you look at the top scorers' list you have to go down as far as 7th for your first Englishman, which is Lampard. Ricky Lambert has 15 as well, but let's be honest about Lambert, he is still very much unproven, he could revert to the same level as Holt did, he's 31 so offers very little future, he's quite a slow player as well.

Most clubs are led by a single striker who is in most cases foreign.

Manchester United: Robin Van Persie
Manchester City: Sergio Aguero/Edin Dzeko
Chelsea: Fernando Torres
Arsenal: Olivier Giroud
Tottenham: Adebayor (Defoe was dropped towards the end)
Everton: Anichebe/Jelavic
Liverpool: Luis Suarez
West Brom: Lukaku/Long
Swansea: Michu
Norwich: Holt
West Ham: Andy Carroll
Fulham: Berbatov
Sunderland: Fletcher
Newcastle: Cisse
Aston Villa: Benteke
Wigan: Kone
Reading: Le Fondre/Pogregnybak
Southampton: Ricky Lambert
QPR: Remy

That's 4 out of 20 using an English striker as their main striker, 5 if you include Tottenham. Three of those 5 have never been called up and are fairly old in Le Fondre, Lambert and Holt. They're not international level strikers. Then you are left with Defoe who was dropped towards the end of the season and Carroll who is injured a lot.

You can throw in Sturridge and Rooney as other strikers, as well as Welbeck who has been awful form having lost his place to a foreign striker. That's not an awful lot to choose from.



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Post by Kenny Sun 02 Jun 2013, 12:04 pm

I get were your coming from Crimey and i agree to an extent , i just look at it in a different way .

If that is all we have to choose from or to put it another way if that IS all we choose from then we should be more realistic about what we are going to achieve .

It's just me but i don't understand how a sub for his team ( Welbeck ) is an automatic pick for the national side .

You say Lambert and Holt are to old an not international class but they play most weeks for their teams so for me should be picked above a sub ( if Welbeck wants to play international football then he should move to a team were he will be playing week in week out ) . I realise this wont be a popular idea , but pick players inform rather on name or club .
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 02 Jun 2013, 12:27 pm

If Welbeck/Oxlade-Chamberlain played for Southampton, they wouldn't get called up.

You got the likes of Lallana, Lambert for example, playing well week in week out for there club in the Prem, yet they won't get a look in. Who's to say they won't be international class?

We pick players who have hardly played and are out form, it's no wonder we look rusty and out of form when we play
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Post by Kenny Sun 02 Jun 2013, 12:29 pm

6 fingered tractor boy wrote:If Welbeck/Oxlade-Chamberlain played for Southampton, they wouldn't get called up.

You got the likes of Lallana, Lambert for example, playing well week in week out for there club in the Prem, yet they won't get a look in. Who's to say they won't be international class?

We pick players who have hardly played and are out form, it's no wonder we look rusty and out of form when we play

my point exactly
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Post by Crimey Sun 02 Jun 2013, 12:30 pm

I agree that Welbeck probably shouldn't be in the squad, but at the same time I don't think Lambert or Holt are good enough to play at international level or offer us the same future as other options.

However this just leads back to the point of Hodgson's claim. Hodgson is saying he shouldn't have the make the choice between selecting a out of form substitute or a regular oldish, not international class striker. He's saying that he wants teams like Manchester United, Manchester City, Arsenal etc. to develop English strikers rather than looking abroad as it limits his options.

All international sides pick from the best clubs, it's not a matter of being bias, it's just a matter of them, usually, being the better players. The problem for Hodgson is that the big clubs have a much higher foreign bias.

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Post by Crimey Sun 02 Jun 2013, 12:32 pm

6 fingered tractor boy wrote:If Welbeck/Oxlade-Chamberlain played for Southampton, they wouldn't get called up.

You got the likes of Lallana, Lambert for example, playing well week in week out for there club in the Prem, yet they won't get a look in. Who's to say they won't be international class?

We pick players who have hardly played and are out form, it's no wonder we look rusty and out of form when we play

Lallana deserves a look in, but surely you see that Lambert is definitely not international class. For all his good work, he's a very slow player, has no international experience and he's 31! I'm one of Welbeck's harshest critics, and agree he shouldn't be in the squad, but that is exactly Hodgson's point. The choice is awful. He shouldn't have to resort to picking players like Lambert.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 02 Jun 2013, 12:34 pm

Crimey wrote:
6 fingered tractor boy wrote:If Welbeck/Oxlade-Chamberlain played for Southampton, they wouldn't get called up.

You got the likes of Lallana, Lambert for example, playing well week in week out for there club in the Prem, yet they won't get a look in. Who's to say they won't be international class?

We pick players who have hardly played and are out form, it's no wonder we look rusty and out of form when we play

Lallana deserves a look in, but surely you see that Lambert is definitely not international class. For all his good work, he's a very slow player, has no international experience and he's 31! I'm one of Welbeck's harshest critics, and agree he shouldn't be in the squad, but that is exactly Hodgson's point. The choice is awful. He shouldn't have to resort to picking players like Lambert.

How do you know Lambert isn't international class? He's been doing it week in week out against the best clubs in the country, which is more than could be said for most of our strikers this season. He may be slow, but he's a very clever with his runs, and just because he is 31 doesn't mean he shouldn't be given a friendly to see whether he is good enough or not.

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Post by Kenny Sun 02 Jun 2013, 12:41 pm

6 fingered tractor boy wrote:
Crimey wrote:
6 fingered tractor boy wrote:If Welbeck/Oxlade-Chamberlain played for Southampton, they wouldn't get called up.

You got the likes of Lallana, Lambert for example, playing well week in week out for there club in the Prem, yet they won't get a look in. Who's to say they won't be international class?

We pick players who have hardly played and are out form, it's no wonder we look rusty and out of form when we play

Lallana deserves a look in, but surely you see that Lambert is definitely not international class. For all his good work, he's a very slow player, has no international experience and he's 31! I'm one of Welbeck's harshest critics, and agree he shouldn't be in the squad, but that is exactly Hodgson's point. The choice is awful. He shouldn't have to resort to picking players like Lambert.

How do you know Lambert isn't international class? He's been doing it week in week out against the best clubs in the country, which is more than could be said for most of our strikers this season. He may be slow, but he's a very clever with his runs, and just because he is 31 doesn't mean he shouldn't be given a friendly to see whether he is good enough or not.


are you reading my mind ?
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Post by Crimey Sun 02 Jun 2013, 12:42 pm

6 fingered tractor boy wrote:
Crimey wrote:
6 fingered tractor boy wrote:If Welbeck/Oxlade-Chamberlain played for Southampton, they wouldn't get called up.

You got the likes of Lallana, Lambert for example, playing well week in week out for there club in the Prem, yet they won't get a look in. Who's to say they won't be international class?

We pick players who have hardly played and are out form, it's no wonder we look rusty and out of form when we play

Lallana deserves a look in, but surely you see that Lambert is definitely not international class. For all his good work, he's a very slow player, has no international experience and he's 31! I'm one of Welbeck's harshest critics, and agree he shouldn't be in the squad, but that is exactly Hodgson's point. The choice is awful. He shouldn't have to resort to picking players like Lambert.

How do you know Lambert isn't international class? He's been doing it week in week out against the best clubs in the country, which is more than could be said for most of our strikers this season. He may be slow, but he's a very clever with his runs, and just because he is 31 doesn't mean he shouldn't be given a friendly to see whether he is good enough or not.


It's just a fairly common pattern that has been followed for at least a decade now where an English striker has one excellent season and then fades see James Beattie, Andre Johnson, Grant Holt, Bobby Zamora, Kevin Davies, David Nugent etc. etc. I'm willing to be proved wrong by Lambert, but one good year in the Premier League does not make him a genuinely good option for Hodgson.

Of course his age matters, the World Cup is next summer, and I have a feeling Hodgson is really been appointed to build the squad for 2016-18 tournaments. Lambert will be 32 years old, with only a years international experience under his belt, no major international tournaments, no European football. That doesn't make good reading for a call up, even if his 15 goals does.

As much as I dislike Welbeck and don't think he should be in the squad, I appreciate the lack of options Hodgson has.

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Post by Kenny Sun 02 Jun 2013, 12:48 pm

I will give Hodgson a bit of a break and lay some blame at club level and the almost automatic mind set of buying foreign players rather then taking a chance or promoting english talent .

But i still think we should give inform players a chance regardless of club/age/or anything else .

Whats the point in friendlies nowadays ? It's all about money now ( Brazil want the Rooneys/ Lampards playing to boost interest ) when it should be about trying new players and tactics out so we aren't left with only a plan A when it comes to important internationals
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Post by Kenny Sun 02 Jun 2013, 12:52 pm

The one thing i would say Crimey is i wouldn't be bothered if say Lambert or whoever only played 5 - 10 games for England if in those games he scored goals and we actually won something .

We just pick the same players year in year out and never look like we have improved in tournaments

horses for courses and all that
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Post by Guest Sun 02 Jun 2013, 1:31 pm

It was always going to come to this though. The one main benefactor of the Premier League was supposed to be the England national football team and look at it now. It's only going to get worse.

We're running out of decent forwards and it will then be midfielders, then defenders... We're hardly brimming with great goalies either.

It only seems like yesterday when we were spoilt with striking options and now look at it.

Like Kenny has said unless clubs alter their thinking and prioritise in developing homegrown talent then nothing's gonna change. But such is the nature of the beast and it being such a results driven business more than ever we'll continue to stumble.

Hodgson cant make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. For my money Lambert must be worthy of a friendly or two regardless of age. If he's good enough he's young enough.

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Post by Kenny Sun 02 Jun 2013, 1:35 pm

FreekShow wrote:It was always going to come to this though. The one main benefactor of the Premier League was supposed to be the England national football team and look at it now. It's only going to get worse.

We're running out of decent forwards and it will then be midfielders, then defenders... We're hardly brimming with great goalies either.

It only seems like yesterday when we were spoilt with striking options and now look at it.

Like Kenny has said unless clubs alter their thinking and prioritise in developing homegrown talent then nothing's gonna change. But such is the nature of the beast and it being such a results driven business more than ever we'll continue to stumble.

Hodgson cant make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. For my money Lambert must be worthy of a friendly or two regardless of age. If he's good enough he's young enough.

One of our biggest problems imo with regard to clubs bringing through talent is they all go out and bring young foreign players into their academies a lot more now then they used to . It's all about money . Sad
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Post by Duty281 Sun 02 Jun 2013, 2:17 pm

Our current striking pool is probably:

Rooney, Carroll, Defoe, Sturridge, Welbeck and possibly Walcott.

That is good enough to win a World cup in my opinion. Especially when you're backed up by a world-class defence as England are, as well the quality in midfield supplementing these strikers. Rooney, Carroll and Defoe are proven goalscorers. Welbeck and Sturridge are still developing. Then you consider the goals that can be chipped in from midfield and we're well away.

The same people who bemoan the fact we don't build enough for youth, want Holt and Lambert picked - players both over 30 who don't offer much of a future. Hodgson's getting it right, England's best manager probably since Sir Bobby Robson.

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Post by Guest Sun 02 Jun 2013, 2:20 pm

Duty, is the glass ever half empty?!

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 02 Jun 2013, 2:21 pm

You don't genuinely believe those strikers are good enough to win a World Cup do you? Erm
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Post by Crimey Sun 02 Jun 2013, 2:29 pm

World class defence?!

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Post by Duty281 Sun 02 Jun 2013, 2:32 pm

It's never even quarter empty. Yes those strikers are good enough to win a World cup. I look at Brazil's strikers - Fred, Neymar, Hulk, Damiao - that's about on a par with England. You look at Germany - the ageing Klose, Gomez, Kruse - and that doesn't make you tremor. You look at Argentina, and those strikers terrify you, quite rightly. Then you dig a bit deeper, and you see a weak midfield, and an even weaker defence.

Who else can threaten England? Holland? Weak defence. France and Italy couldn't even beat a shadow England side at Euro 2012, decimated with injury. Portugal? One man team. Uruguay ditto.

England want to win a World cup. I think they have a very good chance to do it next year.

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Post by Duty281 Sun 02 Jun 2013, 2:33 pm

Crimey wrote:World class defence?!

Nothing will breach that English shield wall.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 02 Jun 2013, 2:34 pm

We're struggling to even make the goddamn World Cup, let alone win it!
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Post by Crimey Sun 02 Jun 2013, 2:34 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Crimey wrote:World class defence?!

Nothing will breach that English shield wall.

Apart from Seamus Coleman and Shane Long?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 02 Jun 2013, 2:36 pm

Duty281 wrote:It's never even quarter empty. Yes those strikers are good enough to win a World cup. I look at Brazil's strikers - Fred, Neymar, Hulk, Damiao - that's about on a par with England. You look at Germany - the ageing Klose, Gomez, Kruse - and that doesn't make you tremor. You look at Argentina, and those strikers terrify you, quite rightly. Then you dig a bit deeper, and you see a weak midfield, and an even weaker defence.

Who else can threaten England? Holland? Weak defence. France and Italy couldn't even beat a shadow England side at Euro 2012, decimated with injury. Portugal? One man team. Uruguay ditto.

England want to win a World cup. I think they have a very good chance to do it next year.

If those strikers are good enough to the World Cup, then Norwich's strikers are good enough to fire them to Premier League glory next season
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Post by Duty281 Sun 02 Jun 2013, 2:38 pm

6 fingered tractor boy wrote:We're struggling to even make the goddamn World Cup, let alone win it!

Winning the World cup is a two year process. Italy lost to Slovenia, drew with Norway and Scotland, and conceded 3 goals to Belarus during qualification for the 2006 World cup. I don't need to remind you what happened to Italy at the 2006 World cup.

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Post by Duty281 Sun 02 Jun 2013, 2:38 pm

Crimey wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Crimey wrote:World class defence?!

Nothing will breach that English shield wall.

Apart from Seamus Coleman and Shane Long?

End of season kick about doesn't match the intensity of a proper World cup game.

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Post by Guest Sun 02 Jun 2013, 2:42 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Crimey wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Crimey wrote:World class defence?!

Nothing will breach that English shield wall.

Apart from Seamus Coleman and Shane Long?

End of season kick about doesn't match the intensity of a proper World cup game.

Yet if we beat Brazil tonight you will use that to further your argument. Will you not?

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Post by Duty281 Sun 02 Jun 2013, 2:45 pm

FreekShow wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Crimey wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Crimey wrote:World class defence?!

Nothing will breach that English shield wall.

Apart from Seamus Coleman and Shane Long?

End of season kick about doesn't match the intensity of a proper World cup game.

Yet if we beat Brazil tonight you will use that to further your argument. Will you not?

Of course. That's what you have to do to be as optimistic as I am. Magnify every victory, minimise every poor result.

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Post by Kenny Sun 02 Jun 2013, 4:38 pm

As a nation we expect to much , Spain Argentina Germany Italy Holland Brazil (at home) are all better equipt to win the world cup then we are
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Post by Duty281 Sun 02 Jun 2013, 4:41 pm

Spain - Tough game, but I think I would back England's counter-attacking style.
Argentina - Beat them the last two times.
Germany - Overrated.
Italy - A challenge, but winnable for England.
Holland - Defence is poor, too reliant on RVP.
Brazil - May be at home, but a shadow of what they once were.

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Post by Kenny Sun 02 Jun 2013, 4:43 pm

But they have winning mentalities , we don't win the big games when push comes to shove
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Post by Duty281 Sun 02 Jun 2013, 4:45 pm

If fate had been a bit kinder to England, I reckon we would have won 4 World cups and 2 European Championships by now. Hey ho, them's the breaks.

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Post by Guest Sun 02 Jun 2013, 4:46 pm

Duty281 wrote:If fate had been a bit kinder to England, I reckon we would have won 4 World cups and 2 European Championships by now. Hey ho, them's the breaks.

Laugh

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Post by Kenny Sun 02 Jun 2013, 4:47 pm

Duty281 wrote:If fate had been a bit kinder to England, I reckon we would have won 4 World cups and 2 European Championships by now. Hey ho, them's the breaks.

I do applaud your optimism
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Post by Duty281 Sun 02 Jun 2013, 4:47 pm

FreekShow wrote:
Duty281 wrote:If fate had been a bit kinder to England, I reckon we would have won 4 World cups and 2 European Championships by now. Hey ho, them's the breaks.

Laugh

Now now Freek. I'm deadly serious.

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Post by Guest Sun 02 Jun 2013, 4:48 pm

I dont doubt you are!

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Post by Nakatomi Plaza Sun 02 Jun 2013, 4:52 pm

Kenny wrote:
Duty281 wrote:If fate had been a bit kinder to England, I reckon we would have won 4 World cups and 2 European Championships by now. Hey ho, them's the breaks.

I do applaud your optimism

I think only Audley Harrison can match this type of optimism

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Post by Duty281 Sun 02 Jun 2013, 4:59 pm

Well I may as well list them hadn't I? Here we go then:

1986 - Argentina, the soon-to-be World champions, need a "Hand of God" goal from Maradona to beat England. Without that, if the referee had seen it, would they have beaten England? Certainly that inspired Maradona to "goal of the century" minutes later.

1990 - West Germany, the soon-to-be World champions, play England in the semi-final. Only a massive deflection for Germany gives them their goal, and Chris Waddle in extra-time was only 1 inch of woodwork away from sending England into the final. Then penalties did for England. Surely if Waddle scored, England would have beaten Argentina in the final?

1996 - In the semi-final against Germany, Darren Anderton cracks one off the post in golden goal extra-time, before Gascoigne is one or two inches away from sliding England into the final. Then penalties put England out again. Surely if Gazza scored, England would have beaten the Czechs in the final?

2002 - Quarter-final time against Brazil. England are the only time to truly test Brazil in that tournament. Brazil only beat England because England suffer injuries to Gerrard and Neville, as well as England having a half-fit Seaman, Owen and Beckham on the pitch. Even then, Brazil need a lucky free-kick to defeat England. With only Turkey and Germany in the way afterwards, that could have been England's time.

2004 - Quarter-final against Portugal. England's player of the tournament, Rooney is taken off after breaking his foot 20 minutes in. Until then, England were 1 nil up and cruising. One terrible decision by a biased ref, and it's off to penalties, which England lose. Only Holland and Greece to come for England if Campbell's goal stood.

What might have been I suppose.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 04 Sep 2013, 2:29 pm

Issues? What issues? Talented young players are emerging all the time it seems for the England football team.

People that bemoan the amount of foreigners in the English club game - doesn't it actually make things more of a challenge for our lads? Doesn't it push them to be better players? It's better to be fighting for your place all the time, than guaranteed a place week in week out. It makes you a better player, surely?

No matter what anyone says, the Premier League is good for the National Team, and we are starting to see the benefits.

I truly do believe that the English football team are approaching a golden age. An unheralded period of dominance is just around the corner for England and 2014 will start it all off.

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Post by The Terror of Tylorstown Wed 04 Sep 2013, 2:46 pm

I sincerely hope you're on the wind up, the new generation includes Welbeck and Cleverley neither of whom are good enough. Jones and Smalling barely get a game for United with a internationally retired Ferdinand preferred to both. Rodwell barely plays for City, Wilshere and Chamberlain are always injured, Gibbs isn't good enough, Bertrand doesn't play.

The same ageing players get picked for their clubs and for the national team.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 04 Sep 2013, 3:39 pm

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:I sincerely hope you're on the wind up, the new generation includes Welbeck and Cleverley neither of whom are good enough. Jones and Smalling barely get a game for United with a internationally retired Ferdinand preferred to both. Rodwell barely plays for City, Wilshere and Chamberlain are always injured, Gibbs isn't good enough, Bertrand doesn't play.

The same ageing players get picked for their clubs and for the national team.
Welbeck and Cleverley appear to be starting quite frequently at one of the world's best clubs - not sure how that's termed as "not good enough". Jones appears to be United's first choice right back. Oxlade and Rodwell barely play, agreed. Wilshere's on the mend and we're fine for left backs at the moment.

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Post by The Terror of Tylorstown Wed 04 Sep 2013, 6:50 pm

Jones is deputising for Rafael while he's out injured, he is not a first choice player at all. Most United fans and I thought you were one are not happy with the preferential treatment that Welbeck and Cleverly receive despite not being good enough. Were Cleverly good enough we wouldn't have had such a saga throughout the summer trying to find a new midfielder. Wilshere is always on the mend with another injury just round the corner.

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