My lions 15 after game 3

Ok I would argue even Gatland has not fully worked out the starting 15 for the first test so I'm just giving my view on what positions feel more certain after the first 3 games:

1. Vunipola now a cert and playing very well too - he's surpised me
2. Still wide open with not much to call between all 3 - cant call this one!!!
3. Jones a cert
4 Gray - looking very strong now
5. POC - together with Grey will form a formidable partnership
6. Wide open - Croft, Lydiate, Obrien all still in the mix - i'd prob give to croft to get lineout dominence and to have a third winger
7 Warburton - gatland cannot drop him even though tipuric and o'brien are still in better form
8. Heaslip - falatau did not do enough imo against reds
9. Phillips - with youngs on bench to offer something different
10. sexton. no debate.
11. North
12. Still open - tuiliagi my preference
13. BOD - his experience and form are essential to lions success
14 Maitland - ok gatland is more likely to go for cuthbert but maitland offers more and cuthbert hasnt been great.
15. Halfpenny.

So i have 3/4 wide open positions but of course these are my views only. Who do people think will get 2, 6 and 12 spots?

Maitland?

Really though, like really though complete realistically? Cuthbert had a bad game today but still scored two tries against BaaBaas, the same game where Maitland ballsed up everytime the ball came near him

My view loosehead - i know deep down gats will got for brawn over pace....

littlejohn wrote:Ok I would argue even Gatland has not fully worked out the starting 15 for the first test so I'm just giving my view on what positions feel more certain after the first 3 games:

1. Vunipola now a cert and playing very well too - he's surpised me
2. Still wide open with not much to call between all 3 - cant call this one!!!
3. Jones a cert
4 Gray - looking very strong now
5. POC - together with Grey will form a formidable partnership
6. Wide open - Croft, Lydiate, Obrien all still in the mix - i'd prob give to croft to get lineout dominence and to have a third winger
7 Warburton - gatland cannot drop him even though tipuric and o'brien are still in better form
8. Heaslip - falatau did not do enough imo against reds
9. Phillips - with youngs on bench to offer something different
10. sexton. no debate.
11. North
12. Still open - tuiliagi my preference
13. BOD - his experience and form are essential to lions success
14 Maitland - ok gatland is more likely to go for cuthbert but maitland offers more and cuthbert hasnt been great.
15. Halfpenny.

So i have 3/4 wide open positions but of course these are my views only. Who do people think will get 2, 6 and 12 spots?

Is a replacement for Bowe actually needed?

theslosty wrote:

littlejohn wrote:Ok I would argue even Gatland has not fully worked out the starting 15 for the first test so I'm just giving my view on what positions feel more certain after the first 3 games:

1. Vunipola now a cert and playing very well too - he's surpised me
2. Still wide open with not much to call between all 3 - cant call this one!!!
3. Jones a cert
4 Gray - looking very strong now
5. POC - together with Grey will form a formidable partnership
6. Wide open - Croft, Lydiate, Obrien all still in the mix - i'd prob give to croft to get lineout dominence and to have a third winger
7 Warburton - gatland cannot drop him even though tipuric and o'brien are still in better form
8. Heaslip - falatau did not do enough imo against reds
9. Phillips - with youngs on bench to offer something different
10. sexton. no debate.
11. North
12. Still open - tuiliagi my preference
13. BOD - his experience and form are essential to lions success
14 Maitland - ok gatland is more likely to go for cuthbert but maitland offers more and cuthbert hasnt been great.
15. Halfpenny.

So i have 3/4 wide open positions but of course these are my views only. Who do people think will get 2, 6 and 12 spots?

Is a replacement for Bowe actually needed?

Good point. One could argue a case for Foden or Madigan to fly over and provide a bit more cover. I'd love to see Zebo over but thats due to natural bias and a fondness to see his flatley like feet in action aginst the aussies!

littlejohn wrote:

theslosty wrote:

littlejohn wrote:Ok I would argue even Gatland has not fully worked out the starting 15 for the first test so I'm just giving my view on what positions feel more certain after the first 3 games:

1. Vunipola now a cert and playing very well too - he's surpised me
2. Still wide open with not much to call between all 3 - cant call this one!!!
3. Jones a cert
4 Gray - looking very strong now
5. POC - together with Grey will form a formidable partnership
6. Wide open - Croft, Lydiate, Obrien all still in the mix - i'd prob give to croft to get lineout dominence and to have a third winger
7 Warburton - gatland cannot drop him even though tipuric and o'brien are still in better form
8. Heaslip - falatau did not do enough imo against reds
9. Phillips - with youngs on bench to offer something different
10. sexton. no debate.
11. North
12. Still open - tuiliagi my preference
13. BOD - his experience and form are essential to lions success
14 Maitland - ok gatland is more likely to go for cuthbert but maitland offers more and cuthbert hasnt been great.
15. Halfpenny.

So i have 3/4 wide open positions but of course these are my views only. Who do people think will get 2, 6 and 12 spots?

Is a replacement for Bowe actually needed?

Good point. One could argue a case for Foden or Madigan to fly over and provide a bit more cover. I'd love to see Zebo over but thats due to natural bias and a fondness to see his flatley like feet in action aginst the aussies!

A like for like replacement - 'bo for Bowe

I'll get me coat.

vunipolo
hibbard - more ball carrying presence
jones
gray
o connell
wide open - depends on how they want to play IMO
warburton - by default
heaslip

phillips - very close with youngs
north
sexton
roberts
odriscoll
halfpenny - over a defensive liability in cuthbert and an out of form maitland, if kearney is fit
kearny if fit

GavinDragon wrote:vunipolo
hibbard - more ball carrying presence
jones
gray
o connell
wide open - depends on how they want to play IMO
warburton - by default
heaslip

phillips - very close with youngs
north
sexton
roberts
odriscoll
halfpenny - over a defensive liability in cuthbert and an out of form maitland, if kearney is fit
kearny if fit

ooh thats an interesting one. Kearney needs to get some game time though! Agree that 14 is probably the only weak spot atm. Maybe that will influence the lions to flying in ab out and out winger ala Zebo/visser/wade?

Vunipola
Hibbard
Jones
Gray
O'Connelll
Croft
Warburton
Heaslip
Phillips
Sexton
North
Roberts
O'Driscoll
Cuthbert
Halfpenny

Cole
T Youngs
Corbisiero
AWJ
SOB
B Youngs
Hogg
Tuilagi

No idea on how Gatland will go, but right now my team for the first test would be this...

15. Hogg
14. Halfpenny
13. O'Driscoll
12. Roberts
11. North
10. Sexton
9. Phillips

1. Corbisiero
2. Hibbard
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. O'Connell (c)
6. O'Brien
7. Tipuric
8. Heaslip

16. T.Youngs 17. Vunipola 18. Cole 19. Evans 20. Warburton 21. B.Youngs 22. Farrell 23. Tuilagi

Tough calls on Vunipola and Cuthbert, but I would just feel more comfortable with Corbs starting and Mako as an impact sub. With Cuthbert I could see the Aussies targetting his defence, which would be an issue. Faletau also unlucky, but Warburton effectively covers the entire back row from the bench. I genuinely think this side could beat the Wallabies.

We all know (right or wrong) that Warburton will start the 1st test, Evans hasn't done enough to get a bench spot over AWJ.

Out of curiosity has a tour captain actually ever been dropped from the test sides because of poor form or better players on tour?

I can see Corbisiero as starting Loosehead, he is a very good player, you notice the difference in the England pack when he is absent.

But I want to see him play first. Thought it was interesting to see Cole at loosehead. I think Bluesman suggested it a long time ago.

At the moment I games played

Corbs
Hibbard
Jones
POC
Parling
Warburton
Tips
Heaslip
Phillips
Sexton
North
Davies
BOD
Maitland
Halfpenny

Youngs
Vunipola
Cole
Gray
SOB
Youngs
Hogg
Tuilagi

Obviously Vuni is the only original loosie left but I think/hope Corbs form will see him start and Vuni impact from the bench.

POC has nailed one second row birth, Gray and Parling were great vs the Reds so they would fill my squad. I expect a lot more of AWJ and Evans, they haven't been at their best yet and may make a case for themselves.

Youngs and Phillips is a tough call, Youngs was superb vs Reds, be interesting to see how Mike plays next game. His experience and his proven big game temprament puts him ahead of Youngs.

Cuthbert fell for a defensive clanger vs Reds, but he was exploited by the Lions disorganisation and a very good winger rather than his lack of ability to tackle. The Lions defencively tactics are very very poor and need some serious work pre test. The blitz isn't working, too often dog legs were created and gaps left to be exploited.

My choice of Maitland is because he is an awesome player, but is versatile, able to cover a number of positions.

My bench brings impact players on. Gray, SOB, Youngs, Hogg and Tuilagi will have a great impact on the game when called upon.

Maes,

Corbs hasn't played yet so how can you pick him.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Maes,

Corbs hasn't played yet so how can you pick him.

I said the same above mate. I think he will show in his warm up games that he is the man we need. He is a superb player when fit, and he is apparently fit.

If Corbisiero is not fit then Grant would be my choice as starting Loosehead. vunipola is a definite bench option for me, an impact player.

Not sure what Young's did to be challenging Phillips to be honest. He spends too much time looking around when the ball is at his feet waiting to be played.hooper will be all over him if he keeps doing it.

I agree with the opening poster, but I think O'Briren is nailed on for 6 at the moment, with Lydiate on the bench.

Gatlands team for the 1 st test at the moment

15. Halfpenny
14. Cuthbert
13. O'Driscoll
12. Roberts
11. North
10. Sexton
9. Phillips

1. Corbisiero
2. Hibbard
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. O'Connell (c)
6. O'Brien
7. Warburton
8. Heaslip

stevetynant wrote:Not sure what Young's did to be challenging Phillips to be honest. He spends too much time looking around when the ball is at his feet waiting to be played.hooper will be all over him if he keeps doing it.

Thats because he was looking for his Flyhalf who was missing 60 % of the time at first receiver... I wouldn't blame Youngs, he ran the game like a French style scrum half. He had to as Farrell was doing bugger all to win the game outside him.

Youngs was MOM yesterday for me; looked close to his best

Yeah I definitely thought youngs was back to his best yesterday, tough, tough game! I'd have Parling over Grey but that's just me......Gatland will pick AWJ....things are looking promising regardless!

ultra wrote:Yeah I definitely thought youngs was back to his best yesterday, tough, tough game! I'd have Parling over Grey but that's just me......Gatland will pick AWJ....things are looking promising regardless!

Parling was massive in the line out, won a few on their throw...! That has to be cause for selection.

AWJ and Ianto have a lot to prove in the remaining weeks. And I am sure they will. Both are exceptional players...

Grey was awesome, could be a superb impact sub.

The second rows have been very strong I've felt. POC and Gray have been brilliant, Parling had a good game on sat, AWJ had a good cameo vs the Baa Baas but him and Evans did seem to struggle to impose themselves when partnered together which was surprising. Give them time and they'll come good though - no doubt a position of strength currently.

1.Vunipola - he's playing very well but Healy's a big loss
2.Hibbard
3.Jones
4.Gray
5.O'Connell
6.O'Brien
7.Warburton
8.Heaslip

9.Phillips/Youngs - can't call it currently
10.Sexton

11.North
12.Roberts/Tuilagi/Davies - another that I can't call yet
13.O'Driscoll
14.Maitland - Bowe is a huge loss but Maitland has got similar pace and skills if given a chance
15.Halfpenny

The above would be my side currently. Tipuric I'd like to see at 7 but with Warbs captain he'll start and in the side I've got there that may not be a bad thing as Vunipola, Gray, O'Brien and Heaslip offer lots of carrying so Sam can get on with the ground work he's so strong at.

A big part of me still feels he may not make it past the first test in one piece though. He's just one of those players who every time I see on the floor following a tackle or ruck I do wonder whether the medical staff are going to make an appearance in order for him to get back up!

Vunipola
Hibbard
Jones
Parling
POC (c)
Lydiate
O'Brien
Heaslip
Phillips
Sexton
North
Roberts
BOD
Cuthbert
Halfpenny

Youngs - Grant - Cole - Gray - Warburton - Youngs - Farrell - Hogg

Gatland won't drop Sam but I don't see how he's outplayed any of his rivals for the openside spot so far.

I really like that team Mickado

15. Hogg
14. Halfpenny
13. O'Driscoll
12. Roberts
11. North
10. Sexton
9. Phillips

1. Grant
2. Hibbard
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. O'Connell (c)
6. O'Brien
7. Tipuric
8. Heaslip

16. T.Youngs
17. Vunipola
18. Cole
19. Evans
20. Warburton
21. B.Youngs
22. Farrell
23. Tuilagi

Based on what I have seen so far, this would be my team. Vunipola has been a revelation but I have had Grant in my test team even when Healy and Jenkins were fit so nothing has changed my mind since then. I'm sure he'll get a good chance on Tuesday.

London Irish fan (Ozzy3123) wants Corbisiero to start. What a surprise! Based on what exactly? Based on how well he has played in the last few months?



Can't quite understand the obsession with players who aren't match fit like Lydiate and Corbisiero.

Surely current form should count more than how a player did in an international last year?

I would pick:

1.Vunipola
2.Hibbard
3.Jones
4.Gray
5.O Connell
6.O Brien
7.Tipuric
8.Heaslip
9.Youngs
10.Sexton
11.North
12.Roberts
13.BOD
14.Maitland
15.Halfpenny

16.Corbisiero/Grant
17.Cole
18.Youngs
19.Parling
20.Croft
21.Phillips
22.Farrell
23.Tuilagi

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:15. Hogg
14. Halfpenny
13. O'Driscoll
12. Roberts
11. North
10. Sexton
9. Phillips

1. Grant
2. Hibbard
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. O'Connell (c)
6. O'Brien
7. Tipuric
8. Heaslip

16. T.Youngs
17. Vunipola
18. Cole
19. Evans
20. Warburton
21. B.Youngs
22. Farrell
23. Tuilagi

Based on what I have seen so far, this would be my team. Vunipola has been a revelation but I have had Grant in my test team even when Healy and Jenkins were fit so nothing has changed my mind since then. I'm sure he'll get a good chance on Tuesday.

This is probably the form team. Hogg would be out if Bowe was fit no question about that as Bowe and 1/2p are the Lions top performing backs and Hogg has been hit and miss.

If Zebo gets a chance to show his worth he may sneak in.

beshocked wrote:London Irish fan (Ozzy3123) wants Corbisiero to start. What a surprise! Based on what exactly? Based on how well he has played in the last few months?



Can't quite understand the obsession with players who aren't match fit like Lydiate and Corbisiero.

Surely current form should count more than how a player did in an international last year?

Based ont he fact that at present he is a better more experienced player than Vunipola. As always selecting a side is a balancing act between class and form. If every international side was selected solely on form the squad would be different week in week out.

Specifically in relation to the loosehead jersey we have three options, two of whom have not yet played on tour. Two of the three have to be in the test matchday squad. I don't see Grant or Corbisiero being as effective from the bench as Mako and both are better scrummagers than he is. I want my best scrummager starting at loosehead alongside Hibbard and Jones, and our best available scrummaging loosehead is Corbisiero. That is not bias beshocked, it is a fact. It is the reason I would start him, and bring Vunipola from the bench where he can have a real impact on the game late on.

Any thoughts on Cole and Adam Jones playing together? Corbisiero for me though

Ruby, I thought Cole and Jones did ok together to be honest, but I wouldn't want to see that combination start a test. Much like on the loosehead where I want the scrummager then the impact player, I want to start the beast that is Adam Jones and really get at their set piece and then bring on the slightly more mobile Dan Cole as the game is breaking. His work at the breakdown in the final quarter could also be a factor, as turnover ball when the game is getting loose is so valuable.

Along with George North, Mako has been my standout Lions player so far. Of course he has featured prominently in every game due to the injury issues.

Despite this, if Corbs or Grant can demonstrate fitness and form, I too would have Mako on the bench and not as a starter. Pete above has outlined exactly why I would do this. I would much rather start with a stronger scrummager and bring the destructive ball carrier on as an impact sub.

And it's ok for you to say that LT as you are not biased but I am!

Of course it's bias.

You talk about class. Corbisiero has 16 caps for England. That's not really that much to throw that tag around. Vunipola has 9 caps plus all his AP games and HC games.

You say he is better more experienced player. How many big games has Corbisiero taken part in this season?

I think Corbisiero is quite clearly the better scrummager when on form but in terms of overall ability including tackling, workrate,carrying etc I think Vunipola is the better player.

Corbisiero is not match fit, he's not in form. Picking Corbisiero is a bigger gamble.

Plus Vunipola is getting better all the time. His scrummaging is improving. Holding his own vs Carl Hayman is impressive for example.

I don't buy the argument Corbisiero should stroll into the Lions XV without proving his worth.

Nobody is saying he should stroll in without proving his worth beshocked, so pop down off of your soap box fella, and nobody is being critical of Vunipola either. Whoever Corbisiero played for I would be saying what I have said, and incidentally, I think you may find he's a Saints player now anyway.

Technically he hasn't joined Saints yet.

Remember this thread is called my lions 15 after game 3.

So basically you would like to pick Corbisiero before he as proved his worth.

I feel personally that with Hibbard and A.Jones as his frontrow partners, Vunipola would be just fine in the scrummaging department.

Oh and I am not going to deny I am biased too.

beshocked wrote:...

Plus Vunipola is getting better all the time. His scrummaging is improving....

This is the biggest issue there is with Vunipola - but what an issue to have. His rate of improvement over the year has been astonishing to say the least. Its very hard to assess how he compares with the alternatives other than to say hes better now than the last time we saw him play.

Yes the thread is called my lions after 3 games, but it is still not bias on my part. As an addition, if the first test was tomorrow, and Corbs was not available, I would start Grant and have Vunipola from the bench for the same reasons as why I would start Corbs. Would you still accuse me of bias then?

True lostinwales. His rise has been remarkable. Even fans who were apprehensive about his Lions call up are slowly being won over. I don't see why his rise should stop just yet. Only 22 too though he looks 30+

15 Halfpenny
14 Cuthert
13 BOD
12 Roberts
11 North
10 Sexton
9 Phillips
8 Heaslip
7 Warburton (c)
6 Lydiate
5 O'Connell
4 Gray
3 Jones
2 Hibbard
1 Vainapolo

Bench: Cole, T. Youngs, Stevens, Parling, O'Brien/Croft, B. Youngs, Hogg, Tuilagi

rodders wrote:15 Halfpenny
14 Cuthert
13 BOD
12 Roberts
11 North
10 Sexton
9 Phillips
8 Heaslip
7 Warburton (c)
6 Lydiate
5 O'Connell
4 Gray
3 Jones
2 Hibbard
1 Vainapolo

Bench: Cole, T. Youngs, Stevens, Parling, O'Brien/Croft, B. Youngs, Hogg, Tuilagi

Lydiate has been quite poor so far and is one of the Lions worst performers. Cuthbert was good v the BaBas but really poor v the Reds. he looked unfit or injured or something. He seemed very much off the pace. Would this not concern you? All others are fair enough.

I don't disagree guns but I believe Lydiate is nailed on at 6.

I'd have O'Brien and Croft on form but I think the backrow is a done deal. Bowe starts at 14 if he makes it back in time.

15. Halfpenny
14. Bowe if not injured
13. O'Driscoll
12. Roberts
11. North
10. Sexton
9. Phillips
8. Heaslip
7. Tipuric
6. SOB
5. Gray
4. POC
3. Jones
2. Hibbard
1. Vunipola

Bench - Cole, T.Youngs, Corbs, AWJ, Warburton, B.Youngs, J.Davies, Hogg

Here we go again how can you say that about Lydiate in the last game top tackler Lydiate 15 Most rucks hit yes you,ve got it Lydiate 25 hit if thats poor what does it say about the so called good players

Lydiate attempted 16 tackles against the Reds (missed one), he was the top tackler on the pitch. With himself, O'Brien and Heaslip I think we'd have a very good balance.

He hits most rucks and makes most tackles because he doesn't do anyting else.

Hes a decent player, nothing more. If he wasn't Welsh he wouldn't be on the tour.

I think the only ones that are nailed on are

Vunipola, POC, Sexton, Halfpenny

Mick-
I wouldn't include Lydiate. He is pretty one dimensional. Particularily since he is a "chop a guy down" kinda player you would want a poacher (Tipuric) playing with him otherwise you are creating quick ball for the opposition. O'Brien is good at the breakdown but he is by no means excellent. I am hoping that the backrow playing tomorrow is the backrow for the test, it has a bit of everything in it

Lydiate will start because he makes Warbs look good and Warbs is nailed on at 7.

Regardless Rodders, he IS on tour. And I think he provides the backrow with balance.

irnbrew wrote: Here we go again how can you say that about Lydiate in the last game top tackler Lydiate 15 Most rucks hit yes you,ve got it Lydiate 25 hit if thats poor what does it say about the so called good players

He certainly improved v the Reds but wasnt particularly effective at the breakdown. He was the worst Lion v the BaBas. He does what he does well but doesnt offer a lot outside of that. Croft and O'Brien are different players but both offer a lot more if you ask me.

I understand why some Lydiate fans would be frustrated at his critics when he does get through a lot of work. Heaslip similarly got a lot of criticism in the 6N when he too got caught up in unglamorous backrow duties and all of a sudden people didnt rate him anymore. The difference is though Lydiate never really offers much outside of a high work rate. he isnt a ball carrier and has been ineffective in the breakdown.

I would expect more from a 6 and Croft or O'Brien offer more.

Really important to put a test XV together who pull together and play for each other...

So my test XV would be...

1. Paul James (call-up)
2. Hibbard
3. Adam Jones
4. Alun Wyn Jones
5. Ian Evans
6. Warburton
7. Tipuric
8. Toby Faletau

9. M Phillips
10. Dan Biggar (call-up)
11. North
12. Jamie Roberts
13. J Davies
14. Cuthbert
15. Halfpenny


Would also call up Shaun Edwards to replace Farrell senior as defense coach.... not sure I would go as far a getting McBride there though...



... ok... BYE...