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How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.

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Post by maestegmafia Tue 06 Aug 2013, 9:15 pm

Lets define the often maligned, much used phrase "World Class" as being a player who is in the top three in their position in World rugby.

There may well be players recently retired or overlooked by national selectors that you rate in the best of the best.

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Post by bedfordwelsh Tue 06 Aug 2013, 9:21 pm

Ohhhhh Maes you tinker this will set the board on fire.

For me (Wales) then if we are using the top 3 in their position I would say we have 2 defs Halfpenny and A Jones poss 3 with North.
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Post by maestegmafia Tue 06 Aug 2013, 9:35 pm

I am hoping it won't Beds mate.


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Post by whocares Tue 06 Aug 2013, 9:40 pm

Hehe this thread smells controvery...
For france, the likely one would be picamoles then possibly fofana and domingo and a small mention of dusautoir (although there is so many so called world class backrowers out there that it will obviously create a lot of debate).
Retired: hayman and botha when they are not on a lazy day.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Tue 06 Aug 2013, 10:17 pm

Hard to say really. Some contenders, probably none definite right now. But I count World Class as in a World 23. And world class players do not a super team make
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Post by whocares Tue 06 Aug 2013, 10:20 pm

Good point CJ. Need to find the right combinator to create such super team Smile

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Post by nathan Tue 06 Aug 2013, 10:21 pm

we not going to add the "on their day" bit to this? Wink 

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Post by maestegmafia Tue 06 Aug 2013, 10:24 pm

Fofana and Picamoles are definitely in the gang.

It's interesting to see how even just five years ago, France had five or Six players, now two.

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Post by maestegmafia Tue 06 Aug 2013, 10:25 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Hard to say really. Some contenders, probably none definite right now. But I count World Class as in a World 23. And world class players do not a super team make

CJ

Under the definition allowed I would certainly include Alex Corbisiero

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Tue 06 Aug 2013, 11:00 pm

The Autumn Internationals will give an indication as to the here and now everything else is history. A lot of players didn't even get a showcase in Australia.

After all Corbisiero was 4th choice LH for the Lions for example & proved what a great prop he can be.






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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Tue 06 Aug 2013, 11:17 pm

Dagg, Conrad Smith, Carter, Read, McCaw.

Some more borderline ones like Nonu, Whitelock, Mealamu but I'll stick with the first list.

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Post by The Great Aukster Tue 06 Aug 2013, 11:18 pm

maestegmafia wrote:Lets define the often maligned, much used phrase "World Class" as being a player who is in the top three in their position in World rugby.

What does this mean? The top three in what regard? Who decides!

It is ridiculous to rate say tight head props when some have seven great forwards around them and some don't.

Anyone who plays in a World cup is World class because they are representing their nation in a global competition. Who can justifiably say that any of those players would or wouldn't make any other national team? Therefore every current Test player is 'world class', because they have reached the pinnacle of what they can achieve.

In the limited terms of this thread, if Dan Carter was German would he be described as world class? There is no objective way to rate individual players from different nations against each other because they only perform in the context of their own teams.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Tue 06 Aug 2013, 11:21 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:Lets define the often maligned, much used phrase "World Class" as being a player who is in the top three in their position in World rugby.

What does this mean? The top three in what regard? Who decides!

It is ridiculous to rate say tight head props when some have seven great forwards around them and some don't.

Anyone who plays in a World cup is World class because they are representing their nation in a global competition. Who can justifiably say that any of those players would or wouldn't make any other national team? Therefore every current Test player is 'world class', because they have reached the pinnacle of what they can achieve.

In the limited terms of this thread, if Dan Carter was German would he be described as world class? There is no objective way to rate individual players from different nations against each other because they only perform in the context of their own teams.

Yes
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 06 Aug 2013, 11:31 pm

Top 3 in positions for England I'd say:

Ben Youngs, Dan Cole, Alex Corbisiero, Manu Tuilagi are definates.

Could argue for and against Tom Youngs, Tom Wood, Owen Farrell. I personally wouldn't have any of them in top 3 but the fly half and hooker positions especially aren't full of talent at this current time.

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Post by welshy824 (new) Tue 06 Aug 2013, 11:35 pm

in terms of wales I think Bedford had it pretty spot on, JD2 potentially along with Faletau, Warbs and Tips and Phillips and Roberts could have been previously

for other teams

England
corbs
potentially cole and tuilagi

Ireland
Healy
BOD
POC
sexton borderline
SOB almost

Scotland
potentially Gray and Hogg

Italy
Parisse
Zanni

France
Picamole
Para
Fofana
Mas

I am not very aware of SH rugby apart from the obvious players like Carter, McCaw, Pocock, Louw etc

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Post by maestegmafia Tue 06 Aug 2013, 11:53 pm

Definitely Sexton

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Post by Cyril Wed 07 Aug 2013, 8:24 am

I'd much rather have a really good collective with cohesive units allied to an intelligent (and suitable) gameplan.

Having individual "world class" players does not necessarily a great side make.

I've seen "world XVs" on here with up to 10 players from a certain nation who haven't troubled the top 3 in quite a while. It doesn't really stack up.

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Post by jimmyinthewell68 Wed 07 Aug 2013, 8:27 am

for Wales Adam north jd and obviously halfpenny . jd being the controversial one

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Post by GloriousEmpire Wed 07 Aug 2013, 8:29 am

Ben Smith, Conrad Smith, Aaron Smith, Johnny Marr and Morrisey.

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Post by maestegmafia Wed 07 Aug 2013, 8:49 am

Aaron Smith, Wil Genia and maybe Ruan Pienaar are who I think are the best three scrumhalfs.

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Post by Poorfour Wed 07 Aug 2013, 8:52 am

I think we should perhaps impose a moratorium on naming "world class" front rows until the new season starts. From what little evidence there's been so far (mainly comments from coaches and watching the 7s), the changes to scrum engagement make it far harder for a scrum to dominate solely through a big hit.

I'd also say that there's a big difference between "world class" now and "world class" when it really counts - in 2015.

England don't have many players now who are unambiguously in the best 2 or 3 in their position, but there are several who could be if they continue to develop. They also, of all the NH nations, seem to me to have the best chance of developing a world class squad - that is a group of 30+ players who are all internationally competitive.

Wales have more world class candidates right now, but I worry about how many of them will actually be fit come 2015, and I don't see where the strength in depth will come from, particularly in the tight 5 (though given my first point above, maybe there a load of players who will come through as a result of the changes).

Ireland have undeniably world class players in BOD and POC, but won't have them much longer.

It is pointless to talk about world class players in the context of France, since normal notions of talent and form, like EC regulations, only apply when the French feel like it. At any given point in time, the entire French squad can play like the greatest rugby team ever to grace the field, or they can play like drains. Often in the course of the same match.
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed 07 Aug 2013, 9:07 am

Genia & Youngs are the two standout scrum halfs about imo, the 3rd could anyone from Parra, Pienaar, Smith etc.

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Post by maestegmafia Wed 07 Aug 2013, 9:08 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Genia & Youngs are the two standout scrum halfs about imo, the 3rd could anyone from Parra, Pienaar, Smith etc.

All opinions welcome Pooly

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Post by Geordie Wed 07 Aug 2013, 9:12 am

HHmmm for England..i honestly think theres a few who "could" get there, but at the moment...

Alex Corbisieru
Dan Cole

are the only two.

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Post by GloriousEmpire Wed 07 Aug 2013, 9:12 am

Throws up some tough choices to wedge players into a world 23. Would you go with Halfpenny as a kicking option? Or take Dagg for his counter attacking and linking game and ability to inject at first receiver? I guess the point about combinations is pertient. With Carter at 10 presumably Halfpenny is redundant.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed 07 Aug 2013, 9:15 am

You're assuming Carter would be 10 Wink

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Post by nganboy Wed 07 Aug 2013, 9:20 am

O Franks? S Whitelock? Read! McCaw! A Smith? Carter! Cruden? Nonu? C Smith! Jane? Dagg! also Kaino?
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed 07 Aug 2013, 9:21 am

Kaino hasn't played top class rugby for 2 years. Surprised Smith is getting mentioned, he's had an awful season.

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Post by disneychilly Wed 07 Aug 2013, 9:25 am

I reckon a fit Jane and Savea would push strongly too. North would be on the left wing in a World XV but Jane is just unbelievably solid and has the best fend in the game (the second best belonging to the bloke at 10). Maybe Whitelock knocking on the door-he does keep getting better and better and will be very much a World XV candidate in a few years.

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Post by disneychilly Wed 07 Aug 2013, 9:26 am

Ha Pooly considering Carter's giving Barry John a run for his money for the best 10 ever I'd safely say that he's world class.

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Post by BamBam Wed 07 Aug 2013, 9:29 am

If he stays fit (big if?) through the AIs, I reckon we will be able to put Ben Morgan up there as one of the top 3 8s in the world

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed 07 Aug 2013, 9:31 am

disneychilly wrote:Ha Pooly considering Carter's giving Barry John a run for his money for the best 10 ever I'd safely say that he's world class.

Haha....was slightly tongue in cheek Disney Wink

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Post by disneychilly Wed 07 Aug 2013, 9:33 am

I was waiting for you to mention someone like Biggar, Parks or Donald mate Wink

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Post by dummy_half Wed 07 Aug 2013, 9:33 am

poor4

Definitely get where you are coming from regarding England. Ignoring your 'front row' moratorium, I'd say currently we have borderline world class players in Corbs, Cole and Tuillagi and a couple of others (Robshaw, Ben Youngs) falling just a bit short.

However, we have a generally young squad with plenty of scope for improvement from the likes of Tom Youngs, Launchbury, Wood, Morgan, Farrell and perhaps 36 that could take them up to being world class (too early to tell for the likes of Wade). Obviously, I'm not suggesting that all of them WILL become world class players (maybe some will plateau and decline as Ashton has, and others will probably fall by the wayside through injury) but there is certainly grounds for optimism about England's prospects in the short to medium term.

Not sure I would call BOD a world class player now - no doubting that he was, but he is clearly not as much of a physical threat as a few years ago. POC maybe still just is, but again age and miles on the clock are taking their toll.

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Post by Pat_Mustard Wed 07 Aug 2013, 9:39 am

Don't think Scotland would have any definites to be honest, the only ones on the possible list would be Gray, Brown and Rennie when he's not injured, and those are probably slim possibilities if Im honest. Especially as mentioned above with the stiff competition in the back row. One or two others might be listed under that other over-used heading of "potential". Where I think we have improved is that maybe we have more players in the side who are probably in the top 5-10 in their position where in the past we were filling the side with players who wouldn't get t into most test squads. If we can get our good players playing well as a team i won't mind lacking players with the world class label.

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Post by rodders Wed 07 Aug 2013, 9:44 am

Ireland

O'Connell
Bowe
O'Brien
Healy
Sexton
Ferris *
Kearney *

* When fit.

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Post by maestegmafia Wed 07 Aug 2013, 10:53 am

I havent seen a post by our esteemed south African friend as yet, though I imagine when he chooses to contribute that Jean de Villiers would be on his list of World Class Boks

Here is a some youtube footage comparing Jean de Villiers vs Tuilagi from last year.

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Post by Geordie Wed 07 Aug 2013, 11:14 am

Tuilagi is not world class...has potential to become it...but not yet. Personally, i think thats where quite a few of the England group are at the minute...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 07 Aug 2013, 11:33 am

Would agree that there a few from England with the potential to be top 3 in their position but at the moment I would only put Cole and Corbisiero in that bracket. Loads of potential though.

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Post by maestegmafia Wed 07 Aug 2013, 11:38 am

The interesting point that seems to be developing is that the talent is decently spread amongst a number of sides, plenty of competition in the backrow but less so in areas like front row, eight and flyhalf...

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Post by GunsGerms Wed 07 Aug 2013, 11:39 am

Ireland (on current form)

Healy
POC
O'Brien
Sexton

From the last few years at their peak:
BOD (though there may not be that many centres better than him even now)
Bowe
Kearney
Ferris
Heaslip

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Post by Geordie Wed 07 Aug 2013, 12:13 pm

maestegmafia wrote:The interesting point that seems to be developing is that the talent is decently spread amongst a number of sides, plenty of competition in the backrow but less so in areas like front row, eight and flyhalf...

These are areas i think England will be very strong in over the next year or two.

Front Row - Marler, Corbs, Vunipola, Cole, Wilson
No.8 - Morgan & Billy Vunipola
FH - Farrell & Freddie Burns

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Post by Bathite Wed 07 Aug 2013, 12:18 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Dagg, Conrad Smith, Carter, Read, McCaw.

Some more borderline ones like Nonu, Whitelock, Mealamu but I'll stick with the first list.

I'd have Nonu, Whitelock and Franks all in there

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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 07 Aug 2013, 12:23 pm

You're probably right but I didn't want to get greedy. He doesn't have a good rep outside of NZ but I think Jane wouldn't be out of sorts in that group. It's going to be interesting to see how he fits in after he comes back from injury. Ben Smith is in some rich form but I guess to be world class you need to consistently show it and he hasn't played enough yet.

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Post by Scrumpy Wed 07 Aug 2013, 12:31 pm

Is this based on current or past form/glories?
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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 07 Aug 2013, 12:34 pm

I would hazard a guess 'are' is in reference to your team's current situation. Not sure if injured players can be considered though...

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Post by Scrumpy Wed 07 Aug 2013, 12:36 pm

Team or Squad?
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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 07 Aug 2013, 12:57 pm

I would hazard a guess if the players are world class, they might make the starting team. Sadly the days of two separate NZ teams beating all and sundry up north are over. Sad 

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Post by Scrumpy Wed 07 Aug 2013, 1:05 pm

Not always Kia, I'd still class many has beens based in France as world class.
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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 07 Aug 2013, 1:08 pm

You can only be world class if you play for a test team. Otherwise it's just masturbation...

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