England Pack Weight

Just a quick comparison on the two packs that most people would like to see played or expect to see played by Stu Lancaster this Autumn.

Team we expect: 606 "power" team:

1. Corbisiero - 6'1 18st 8 ............ 1. Corbisiero - 6'1 18st 8
2. Youngs - 5'9 16st 0 ................ 2. Hartley - 6'1 17st 4
3. Cole -6'2 18st 8 ..................... 3. UltraWilson - 6'2 17st 8
4. Parling - 6'6 17st 13 ............... 4. Attwood - 6'6 18st 8
5. Launchberry - 6'6 18st 1 ......... 5. Launchberry - 6'6 18st 1
6. Croft - 6'6 16st 7 ................... 6. Wood - 6'5 17st 2
7. Robshaw - 6'2 17st 4 .............. 7. Robshaw - 6'2 17st 4
8. Morgan - 6'3 18st 3 ................ 8. Morgan - 6'3 18st 3

Total pack weight: 141st 2 .......... Total: 142st 7

All weights and heights were taken from the RFU website for consistency. Obviously those two teams could change in countless ways but I've tried to stick with the changes that most posters have agreed on across on the two other England threads.

As you can see there really isn't much in it across the two packs. Yes obviously aggression and power are just as important was weight, look at Corbs and Wilson compared to Cole; Cole is the exact same weight and an inch taller then Corbs and has a stone on Wilson but still is a far worse carrier then either while they both make huge impacts in the loose. Looking at the locks in the EPS and Saxons and it's surprising how short compared to other Int locks Englands options are, nearly all are 6'6 or less with only Lawes at 6'7 but then almost a stone lighter then the other options. Compare this to Kane Douglas of Oz who's 6'8 and 19st 2 or Eben Etzbeth of SA who's 6'8 and 19st 5 and you can see we're falling behind here as well.
Also worth noting that Matt Kvesic is only 6'1 and 16st 5 so while he would bring other skills he'd further weaken an England pack that we all accuse of being too light weight, similarly our back up no8 Vunipola is a monster at 6'2 and 19st 11 which would surely make a bit of an impact if he was brought on for the final 20 of a game. The two other prop options behind Corbs are also contrasts as Marler is pretty slight at 6'0 and 17st 4, on the other you have to feel sorry for the Vunipola bro's mum as Mako is 5'11 and 20st 6! Again you have to think that he'd make a massive (pun) impact off the bench.

On a side note Webber isn't listed in the Saxons squad on the RFU website, a clerical error or should he be in the EPS??

Something to do with perception when viewing them maybe. To me Courtney lawes looks 'lightweight' a lot of the time but he's as heavy as most locks; it's more to do with his carrying technique and build.

You're right he does look a bit skinny, perhaps it's the size of his core and legs. Certainly a lot of other locks are thicker in those regions.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Something to do with perception when viewing them maybe. To me Courtney lawes looks 'lightweight' a lot of the time but he's as heavy as most locks; it's more to do with his carrying technique and build.

Carrying technique ? Give it to the oppostion centre ?  

I've always maintained that a lot of these weights are exaggerated, for whatever reason.

No doubt these guys are huge and would stand out in the general public, but guys like Lawes and Launchbury are very slight, albeit tall. You only have to look at them on screen and in behind the scene photos to make a judgement call.

Guys who have really slimmed down since joining the EPS (Corbisiero especially) have totally changed their body type. I would be surprised if Corbisiero is actually over a stone heavier than Hartley at the same height....

munkian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Something to do with perception when viewing them maybe. To me Courtney lawes looks 'lightweight' a lot of the time but he's as heavy as most locks; it's more to do with his carrying technique and build.

Carrying technique ? Give it to the oppostion centre ?  

To be fair forwards are always told if they find themselves in space with the ball give it to a back...

bluestonevedder wrote:I've always maintained that a lot of these weights are exaggerated, for whatever reason.

No doubt these guys are huge and would stand out in the general public, but guys like Lawes and Launchbury are very slight, albeit tall. You only have to look at them on screen and in behind the scene photos to make a judgement call.

Guys who have really slimmed down since joining the EPS (Corbisiero especially) have totally changed their body type. I would be surprised if Corbisiero is actually over a stone heavier than Hartley at the same height....

I can imagine he is Geordie, Dylan doesn't look too big in photos while Corbs looks quite bulky still even though he has slimmed down.

yappysnap wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:I've always maintained that a lot of these weights are exaggerated, for whatever reason.

No doubt these guys are huge and would stand out in the general public, but guys like Lawes and Launchbury are very slight, albeit tall. You only have to look at them on screen and in behind the scene photos to make a judgement call.

Guys who have really slimmed down since joining the EPS (Corbisiero especially) have totally changed their body type. I would be surprised if Corbisiero is actually over a stone heavier than Hartley at the same height....

I can imagine he is Geordie, Dylan doesn't look too big in photos while Corbs looks quite bulky still even though he has slimmed down.

Geordie?! I'm hurt yappy. Geordie and I look completely different.

Must be having a special moment....

You might just have to answer to Geordie from now on!

I'll let it go since it's a Friday, but never again!

Aw you missing me Yappy?  

Got to cut down on the lunchtime drink...

Weight is an interesting one. It doesnt really give you much...even though ive said myself we have looked a tad lightweight at times. Ive had team mates who were 6'4 and looked like a beanpole..yet one in particular was a  farmer and had simply unreal strength. This needs to be considered. How strong are the lighter players like Parling (he's still 18st), Launchbury etc? Any weaker than the more heavier Attwood or Slater, Garvey etc..

Playing our style, we're going for fast athletic powerful guys...quick to the breakdwon..not messing about and getting the ball out. Likewise at the breakdown get there quick so we pick those types of players.

But we ALL have experienced playing against the heavier..not so explosive giants...who just seem to have that dumb strength and once theyve got you in that bear hug seem to just drive you backward.

I feel with England we are maybe missing one or two of those. Attwood maybe the answer..or Slater, Garvey...

The other thing we need to remember...that it was only really the Wales game that we were blown away...and i think we caught them on a particularly good day.

I say we play the best team for the opposition...tweaking it as we see fit.

If we need a bit more bulk we have the players...if we want a bit more explosive athletic...then we pick the relevant players...

I refuse to believe that David Wilson is under 18 stone, have you seen the size of him? His Bath profile says he is 19st 3lb, seems more likely to me.

Bath bigging up their players 'shocker'  

Cumbrian wrote:I refuse to believe that David Wilson is under 18 stone, have you seen the size of him?  His Bath profile says he is 19st 3lb,  seems more likely to me.

I found that hard to believe too. The deviation between club reported weight and international just seems to back my point above!

Even though Cole is an inch or so taller, I reckon Wilson is a lot heavier. They are very different body types.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Weight is an interesting one. It doesnt really give you much...even though ive said myself we have looked a tad lightweight at times. Ive had team mates who were 6'4 and looked like a beanpole..yet one in particular was a  farmer and had simply unreal strength. This needs to be considered. How strong are the lighter players like Parling (he's still 18st), Launchbury etc? Any weaker than the more heavier Attwood or Slater, Garvey etc..

Playing our style, we're going for fast athletic powerful guys...quick to the breakdwon..not messing about and getting the ball out. Likewise at the breakdown get there quick so we pick those types of players.

But we ALL have experienced playing against the heavier..not so explosive giants...who just seem to have that dumb strength and once theyve got you in that bear hug seem to just drive you backward.

I feel with England we are maybe missing one or two of those. Attwood maybe the answer..or Slater, Garvey...

The other thing we need to remember...that it was only really the Wales game that we were blown away...and i think we caught them on a particularly good day.

I say we play the best team for the opposition...tweaking it as we see fit.

If we need a bit more bulk we have the players...if we want a bit more explosive athletic...then we pick the relevant players...

I think the important different GF is between being 'Big' and providing 'Ballast'. They are very different things.

No doubt Tom Youngs is probably one of the strongest guys in the squad, but he's certainly not one of the largest. Size doesn't mean strength which I think is what we sometimes lose focus of. What England do need at the moment though, is some ballast around the pitch like you've mentioned above. Some heavy weight guys who not only provide extra weight and steadiness in the scrum, but who also stuff the close channels around rucks and fringes. Dave Attwood is that sort of guy, because he's a proper lump.

Attwood used to live above my girlfriend's flat in Bristol. He was a noisy bugger

Haha, you serious? I imagine he's an incredibly loud man. You ever speak to him?

The guy is nearly 19 stone, his footfalls must have been like earthquakes! Not sure I'd want to tell to him to be quiet though... 'Oi Dave! Wear some slippers will yer!' then run away as fast as I can...

perhaps they should do a weigh in , the day before a game like boxers  

Probably just spent most of the time praying that he didn't come through the ceiling!

I always wonder how big the missus to a guy like him must be, logistically he can't date some 4'12 waif can he?

I think you may have got Wilson and Cole's weights the wrong way round. When I've seen Cole's weight quoted It's been just under 18 stone.

Worth noting that when Cole first came into the team his carrying was very good but his scrummaging shocking. This has totally reversed and for several years he's been solid as a rock in the scrum and has handed out some kickings to international looseheads (ask Bevington) but has done only a little ball in hand.

Cumbrian wrote:The guy is nearly 19 stone,  his footfalls must have been like earthquakes!  Not sure I'd want to tell to him to be quiet though... 'Oi Dave! Wear some slippers will yer!' then run away as fast as I can...

He was quite stampy

Some of these stats are totally misleading.

Elliot Daly is quoted as being 14st 6lb on the RFU website and 14st 11lb on the Wasps site. Not a chance in hell Daly is close to 15st (Similar reported weight of Barritt, Farrell)

Power =/= weight

Haven't posted in ages but couldn't leave this one alone. The emphasis should be placed on power to weight ratio not weight, a concept not alien to most elite sports. The guys who stop people on the gain line consistently throughout the whole game have high power to weight ratio and even more importantly great body positioning. For too long now the English pack has not been drilled to have better body positioning in contact, esp mauls which used to be a weapon for us, allowing them a second way of playing when times are tough and you need to control the tempo of the game whilst sapping the opposition.