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Race quotas to return to South African rugby

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InjuredYetAgain
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Race quotas to return to South African rugby Empty Race quotas to return to South African rugby

Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed 14 Aug 2013, 4:42 pm

http://nz.sports.yahoo.com/rugby/news/article/-/18504529/south-africa-restore-rugby-race-quotas/

"Race quotas will return to South African rugby next season in a bid to produce more top-level black players, the national body announced Wednesday.

A South African Rugby Union (SARU) statement said seven players in each 22-man Vodacom Cup squad must be black, including at least two forwards.

And at least five of the black players must be in the starting line-up with the others on the bench."

Interesting call, good or bad?

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 14 Aug 2013, 4:54 pm

I hate quotas in anything.

Lack of representation, whether it is by skin colour/gender/sexual persuasion etc needs to be addressed in any sphere of life - but imposing quotas sounds too much like tokenism.


Of course as a white, middle class (but socialist), anglo-saxon male I am one of the more privileged.

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Post by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 14 Aug 2013, 4:56 pm

Being a long-term critic of apartheid (and therefore an active supporter of the SA ban from participation in sport), I still I believe that politics should have no place in sports administration particularly on racial issues. Sport should be a meritocratic issue, not a vehicle of social engineering.

If SA wants more non-whites in rugby, then the should do the spade-work by sponsoring provision and de-racialising opportunities rather than by heavy-handed 'painting by numbers'.

ESPN wrote:
Code:
The South African Rugby Union has brought in new racial quotas which will apply to next season's Vodacom Cup.

The news was announced on Wednesday by SARU president Oregon Hoskins as they seek to increase the number of players of colour turning out in South Africa's Super Rugby franchises and for the Springboks.

From next season, teams in the Vodacom Cup, a tournament which takes place between March and April, will be required to pick a minimum of seven players of colour in their 22-man matchday squads, two of whom must be forwards, with five starting.

"This decision to introduce measurable targets underlines SARU's commitment to transformation," SARU president Hoskins said. "The Vodacom Cup is a critical step on the development pathway in professional rugby but it had moved away from its primary purpose of presenting opportunities for young emerging players, particularly black players.

"This is rugby's tangible step on delivering on a pledge (to transform). The intended outcome is an increased pool of black talent from which Currie Cup and Super Rugby coaches can select and - in due course - more options for the Springbok coach."

And Hoskins added that he thought it was correct to take direct action. "The mood of the organisation is that we needed to intervene - and this was coming from the provinces as well - to see the graph of black player representation begin to rise."
http://www.espn.co.uk/southafrica/rugby/story/194557.html

Biltong should really have started this thread so if he wants to restart it in his own words he's welcome and I'd be happy to accede to a post merge under his OP.

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Post by Brendan Wed 14 Aug 2013, 6:11 pm

From what i've seen with quotas one of two things happen.

Good players from the marginal group are never viewed as good because they only are there because of the quota.

Those who get "free" places dont try as hard usually, afterall they only need to be runing for the places open to them. As a result there is tension in the team among the players.

Lets be honest more people will leave SA rugby as they get fed up with no being picked even though they are better players.

Surely the answer is to grow player numbers among black comunities. If you grow numbers you will get better players. It isn't about the best players not being picked as if you are good you get a game. I would say that the % of each colour in playing numbers is reflected by the number of players from each colour at the top level.

It is funny how there a few white soccer players in SA. The sports I play/interested in reflect my father and comunity. The fact that i could get an easier place in any sport never was part of which game i focused on.

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Post by Brendan Wed 14 Aug 2013, 6:19 pm

The think i am guessing but could be wrong is that there is no way that 33% of the playerbase is coloured or black. Quota cause problems in team unity aswell.

If the RFU said that one team from northern england (not manchester) in the prem then Newcastle would not be bothered trying until leeds get promoted.
If connacht were ensured 5 players in irish squads why would the players try harder. After all they would only have to be one of the best five players in connacht not one of the best two in your position.

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Post by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 14 Aug 2013, 6:28 pm

Kevin Pietersen plays cricket both in and for England as a direct result of racial quotering.

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Post by Biltong Wed 14 Aug 2013, 7:44 pm

You need to read between the lines.

Vodacom cup is the step you make to develop into a professional player.

If vodacom cup is used to develop non white players then I am all for it.

However, having said that, the government must take responisibility and develop rugby in non traditional schools by providing the money for grounds, equipment and coaching.

For them to demand that SARU do this without any responsibility taken by government is nonsense.

The number of non ehite players at school level is what will bring and develop non white talent.

Currently there aren't enough of them.
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Post by HammerofThunor Wed 14 Aug 2013, 8:00 pm

I can't help but feel this sort of thing is just a fudge. It allows you to quote nice figures but does little to solve the actual problem.

The only time I can see is solution is 'good' is if the club selectors were deliberately avoiding players of colour. If it's just the numbers aren't there it's not really going to help much. Although it would force the clubs themselves to look to encourage rugby in these areas.

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Post by Coleman Wed 14 Aug 2013, 8:39 pm

More White South African players to the home isle/France it is then. We've seen it in Cricket, can see it happening here.

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Post by Geordie Thu 15 Aug 2013, 8:41 am

I hate all this.

Yes you want mixed partaking...but surely its down to ability. Pick the best players. IF they're white, so be it...if blacks come through great. But it should not be forced.

Besides isnt Football the favoured sport of the Blacks in SA but quite a way...

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Post by rodders Thu 15 Aug 2013, 10:03 am

Yeah I hate quotas...but what I hate worse is that they are sometimes needed.
 
You solve one issue by creating another... introducing positive descrimination and watering down genuine meritocracy.
 
However if black players are being descriminated against and if there are genuine barriers preventing them from participating and succeeding in the sport then this may be a necessary evil that needs to be temporarily endured.
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Post by boomeranga Thu 15 Aug 2013, 10:56 am

I was reading a thread today about this on an Australian forum where a few Saffas/x-saffers were posting. The positive seemed to be that Vodacom Cup, being 4th or 5th tier in their structure, meant there was still respect being paid to merit selection from CC level up. It's a tough situation but maybe is a reasonable middle of he road way to go.

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Post by Coleman Thu 15 Aug 2013, 11:41 am


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Post by Guest Thu 15 Aug 2013, 12:02 pm

Its good that they want to encourage players, but I think it sets a bad precedent that you could have an inferior player in the team just because of the colour of their skin. To me, you have to earn your place in the team.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Thu 15 Aug 2013, 12:25 pm

Merged these two threads lads.
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Post by ScarletSpiderman Thu 15 Aug 2013, 12:30 pm

I guess the theory is that the best way to encourage people to do something is to give them a hero (in that sport, profession etc) that they can relate to. In theory if there area more non-white players beeing seen playing, then it should cause more non-whites to take up playing as they will see there is a good chance for them. However once the numbers start to grow the quota should be dropped asap.
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Post by Biltong Thu 15 Aug 2013, 1:34 pm

Coleman wrote:More White South African players to the home isle/France it is then. We've seen it in Cricket, can see it happening here.
Nothing we can do about that though.
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Post by InjuredYetAgain Thu 15 Aug 2013, 7:26 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I guess the theory is that the best way to encourage people to do something is to give them a hero (in that sport, profession etc) that they can relate to.  In theory if there area more non-white players beeing seen playing, then it should cause more non-whites to take up playing as they will see there is a good chance for them.  However once the numbers start to grow the quota should be dropped asap.
Agree with you to a point, Spidey. One of the things holding back developing countries like, say, Russia, USA etc is that there is little tradition. It is one thing to have a one-off role model but when he retires, interest wanes if there is no one to replace him. It takes a good few years/generations to build the production line of talent that will provide ongoing role models, products for advertisers etc and this may be a problem faced by SA.

Bilts, do you think that there was any question of the Beast playing for SA as part of a plan to encourage black front rowers. I must confess that, from my far away home in Edinburgh, when you think of black SA internationalists, they do seem to have double digits on their back and not prime numbers less than 6 (if there is anyone from Glasgow needing this explained to them, let me know)

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Post by Biltong Thu 15 Aug 2013, 7:52 pm

No mate, I don't think so. Beast was good enough. I doubt his selection had anything to do with any kind of motivation off field.

If you ask the same question regarding Lawrence Sephaka and Eddie Edwards then yes, they weren't there because they were good enough.
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Post by InjuredYetAgain Thu 15 Aug 2013, 8:04 pm

Sephaka did seem out of his depth.
Does Chilliboy deserve his caps or, again, do you think he is there On other grounds. Obviously he is nowhere near Bismarck's standard but who is, though.

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Post by Biltong Thu 15 Aug 2013, 8:17 pm

I have always believed Chiliboy is a good professional player, but never believed him to be in the top three in SA.

When John Smit was still playing you still had Bismarck, Adriaan Strauss (who was ignored) , gary Botha ( who was ignored) and Tiaan Liebenberg plus Schalk Brits.

So he ranked about sixth in my opinion.
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Post by Intotouch Sun 18 Aug 2013, 12:56 pm

Pretty much every country with professional rugby has a quota system in place. Even the French have brought one in! It's a peculiarity of the sport that national team interests are given such priority. Typically it's to limit the numbers of foreign players playing in any club. This is of course only benefits the national team in the long run, not the club itself, and often frustrates the fans. I'm sure Munster for example could afford a better outhalf than Ian Keatley but they can't buy one in so are artificially limited in what they can achieve. Overall though you won't hear much complaints about this system in Ireland because by and large players have improved enough when they have been given the opportunity to play and have mostly reached the level needed. All the provinces in Ireland have examples of players who have stepped up to the required level who didn't look like they were the great to start with. I don't see why this couldn't be the case in South Africa. Less talented players getting an opportunity to play will know the criticism they will receive if they don't play well and work their butts off to improve.

I know that this is a very  different type of quota, but it is being done to help the sport in the long run. As this quota system is being introduced at a level below super rugby it still allows the bigger pro sides to field purely the best players so these sides should still be able to compete against other countries' sides without being hamstrung. As all the clubs will have the same limitations to deal with this shouldn't make one team/ supporters feel too hard done by.

This type of quota system worked brilliantly in Scandinavia by the way to get women into politics. (and we all know what the happiest countries in the world are.)

Popularity of a sport can change quite rapidly and if this effort works and draws more black South Africans to play rugby then the potential benefits are huge. People talk about the US as a potential rugby super power, but as it stands I think that South Africa also has huge untapped potential but they've got to do something to get more of the population playing the sport. If not by a quota system at some level then how? There will still be enough opportunities for the finest white players to show their skills at club level. If you think that 66% of players will be white that's still the majority of a team. I think that this could work really well.

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Post by Notch Sun 18 Aug 2013, 8:27 pm

My biggest concern is it could be divisive within the squad, no? It's never good for team morale to have guys sitting on the bench who feel they aren't getting a fair shake due to quotas.
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Post by Biltong Sun 18 Aug 2013, 8:35 pm

Look, as long as the quotas are only prevalent in Vodacom yes.

But again, it is merely a development level and the best possible place to employ quotas.

The fact is we need the non white population to get busy and involved in rugby. We need to broaden our talent base
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Post by The Saint Sun 18 Aug 2013, 9:29 pm

I thought Britz couldn't get into the Bok team because of a quota, hence why he left for Saracens. Though I believe he got selected some time later due to an injury crisis.

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Post by nganboy Mon 19 Aug 2013, 1:10 am

Biltong wrote:Look, as long as the quotas are only prevalent in Vodacom yes.

But again, it is merely a development level and the best possible place to employ quotas.

The fact is we need the non white population to get busy and involved in rugby. We need to broaden our talent base
For people focusing on National or Super level is only a development level. For most of the players its their highest level they will ever play at so perhaps those missing out to a quota player will be less philosophical about it.
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Post by Biltong Mon 19 Aug 2013, 6:02 am

nganboy wrote:
Biltong wrote:Look, as long as the quotas are only prevalent in Vodacom yes.

But again, it is merely a development level and the best possible place to employ quotas.

The fact is we need the non white population to get busy and involved in rugby. We need to broaden our talent base
For people focusing on National or Super level is only a development level. For most of the players its their highest level they will ever play at so perhaps those missing out to a quota player will be less philosophical about it.
true, but rather have those not deemed good enough at vodacom cup level disillusioned than those at Currie Cup.
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Post by Brendan Mon 19 Aug 2013, 11:05 am

Schools is where rugby will grow.  How many township schools play rugby.

As biltong said recently whites and coloured play rugby.  If their is no rugby being played in township schools black playing numbers will be low.

I dont know whose job it is to promote rugby in the townships but soccer is the top sport by a mile and african soccer is built around unstructured teams.  Rugby is very structured so it is worlds apart from soccer.

Players like chilboy and the brothers that played for the bulls are they from the towns or townships.

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Post by Biltong Mon 19 Aug 2013, 4:29 pm

Chiliboy went to Pretoria boys high school.

You'll find mose players in the disadvantaged non rugby schools ot areas were pulled in by the big rugby schools in SA, and most of them developed from there into Craven week, and rhen onto bigger honours.

Here is a link that shows craven week players that went on to higher honours

http://www.rugby15.co.za/2012/06/list-of-243-springboks-names-who-played-in-the-u18-craven-week/
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