Have the Americans given up...

on winning golf events?


Currently on the correct side of the Atlantic;

Ryder cup (europe)
Walker Cup (GB and I)
Solhiem cup (europe)
Curtis cup (GB and I)
US amatuer (Fitzpatrick)
Amatuer championship (Porteous)
US open (Rose)

A bit selective perhaps. Have you already forgotten who currently holds our Open title? Or the US PGA for that matter

That is one in god knows how many events that matter.

Not sure the PGA is really a major at the moment.

If you tag it with nationality, then you can really only talk about team competitions, in which case the US are 0 for 4 in the ones I think matter (Ryder, Solheim, Curtis, Walker). I'd be pretty sure that's not happened often before, if ever?

Walker Cup coming up in a couple of weeks (had a gaze at ticket prices - ridiculous!), so a good time to be humble! Hopefully we can win that too but these things can change pretty quickly.

But a common theme is other nationalities (except International Presidents Cuppers) playing together better as a team, and that came through this week, just like in so many Ryder Cups.

Who are at the top of the world rankiings

The Koreans

They won't be Korean for long..

Why would they be anything else?

Ha ha...deja vu....you said that on another thread Truss and never clarified how that was going to come about. Mind you we've seen your predictions so the Koreans can sleep easy in their beds, they're going to remain Korean!!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:They won't be Korean for long..

Please explain?

Time to play the cheating British game;) .......Getting Africans to run for you or South Africans to play cricket for you...

We'll get these Koreans citizenship and they can line up in a couple of years time!! 

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Time to play the cheating British game;) .......Getting Africans to run for you or South Africans to play cricket for you...

We'll get these Koreans citizenship and they can line up in a couple of years time!! 

Well done Truss, you got it right this time.  

So that's now 6 of these biennial tournaments (Pro, amateur, male, female) since the Americans last won (2010 Curtis Cup was the last success for them). Next up the Walker Cup...another big ask to win an away one of those, Fitzpatrick winning the U.S. Am at the weekend should provide a timely boost though.

With respect to Trussy, I just don't think americans perform that well in a team environment. Individual sports are their forté.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Time to play the cheating British game;) .......Getting Africans to run for you or South Africans to play cricket for you...

We'll get these Koreans citizenship and they can line up in a couple of years time!! 

Isn't this the entire ethos of modern (post Columbian) american history???
Attract people from other countries, give them US citizenship, next one.....

Just to play Devil's Advocate here but the results on the PGA Tour this year would give a different story. By my count, US players have won 30 out of 36 events so far in 2013. Only Laird, McDowell, Rose, Blixt, Scott & Bae have won as non Americans. That's a pretty impressive strike rate for the US players, as good as they have had in many years. Also, a lot of very talented young players have had their first wins this year.

MustPuttBetter wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Time to play the cheating British game;) .......Getting Africans to run for you or South Africans to play cricket for you...

We'll get these Koreans citizenship and they can line up in a couple of years time!! 

Isn't this the entire ethos of modern (post Columbian) american history???
Attract people from other countries, give them US citizenship, next one.....

Not two years after they've arrived...

True, they sign them up on Ellis Island on the way in......

Well, we won the President's Cup and I would be surprised if we didn't win that again this year.

But Europe on a hot streak in so many events.

Walker Cup at NGLA should be a treat.

I would never be inclined to write-off the Americans, so will simply enjoy this fantastic run of GB&I/Euro victories while it lasts!

Tinmar - Good points. Last two majors went to Yanks and they have certainly dominated the US professional tour. Most surprising, to me at least, is that Rory hasn't played as well as we all know he can. I look for that to change.

I'd imagine the Americans will be fired up for the Walker Cup.

I'd expect the percentage of Americans winning individual tournaments to continue at the 80%-ish clip that Tinmar describes.

Partly because the International contingent, rightly or wrongly, is focussed increasingly on Majors and, to a lesser degree, on WGC events, the run-of-the-mill Tour events assume lesser importance. Since Oct 2007, for instance:
Masters: International winners: 4, US: 2
US Open: Int: 3, US: 3
Open Champ: Int: 4, US: 2
PGA: Int: 4, US: 2

WGC:
Accenture: Int 4, US: 2
Doral: Int: 3, US: 3
Bridgestone: Int: 2, US: 4
HSBC: Int: 4, US 2

Total:
International: 27
USA: 21 (Of which 10 have been won by just two players)

Or: 56%
Int: 44%


This may already be the World (75% in the USA) Tour that Norman wanted and Finchem turned his nose up at, but the flip-side is that, for the most part, "regular" Tour events are just steps along the road towards the bigger prize for all but the relative journeymen Internationals.


Meanwhile, the Walker Cup will, as George says, be a battle, and the US will win the Presidents Cup in a laugher.

But we've been saying for ages that Europeans play well together in Team events and Americans often underperform. Nothing altered that perception this past weekend.

Kwin - Be interesting to see how Europe (not all international) has done within these same comparisons. Seems to me Europe often underperform in majors yet seem to over perform in team events. (Save for the Irish - who generally seem to be up to the task.)

Very true Shotrock,

Most of the non-Irish European success noted above has been in WGC (Poulter, Donald, Sergio, Rose, Kaymer, Frannie etc) events, not the Majors - Kaymer's PGA & Rose's Merion marvel excepted.
(Of course Northern Irish are Irish to most Americans, but become British when there are riots. I prefer to think of GB&I as a unit for golfing (and football) purposes, just as it is for Rugby. And in my mind for most things.)


Sure most of us would feel that most Europeans grow up playing TEAM games whereas most Americans grow up playing "team" games which are actually individual sports in disguise - I know you'll never accept that!

Kwin - You are right, don't buy that anymore than the US economic cycles have brought down the European tour to its knees!

American's play team games that are particular in most to America, in their view, unless you consider the laughable "World Series". (not named after a newspaper by the way)

However, they don't really have a culture of playing many other countries at anything that could be described as global, given that they don't really play Football, Rugby, Cricket or any other global games that have proper, recognised and worthy World Championships.

So, Europeans (and ROW) better understand the nature of matches like The Ryder Cup.

I'm sure Shotrock won't agree with it, but most Europeans will be able to relate to that, the feeling of natural friendly international rivalry.

Super - Huh, again.

The US compete in Soccer worldwide. US Women's team reached top level and men's team has made the world cup (and did as well as the might English last World Cup).

Also, you'll never convince me that Cricket and Rugby are more "proper and recognized" (what the heck does that mean anyway??) than Baskeball or Baseball? No chance.

 

In terms of public imagination Shotrock, Most Americans will be as unaware as a North Korean about what happens in The World Cup, in fact, so insular are their sports that unless there is a cold war on there simply isn't international sporting rivalry to rival something like England/Scotland, Netherlands/Germany, England/Australia etc, and it sort of shows in the behaviour of your fans.

How many American's would be able to tell you when the Basketball World Cup was and who are the current Champions?

Super - Behavior of fans? Have you checked some of the obnoxious behavior of so many European soccer fans. Spare me on that front.

Can't speak for all Americans but I could tell you! (Although it's not known as the Basketball "World Cup" in these parts, but I can understand your provincial thought.)

I'm sure you'll have some sweeping stereotypical generalization as a comeback, so I'll go away ...

SR, you are unlikely to get what I'm saying. I was talking about the indoctrinated flag waving USA, USA chants which are American's sole attempt at support. COunt "mash potato" if you want.
Europeans have a heritage of international rivalry in every sport they play, there is an international banter, good will . It just isn't the same in America, it's almost vitriolic in these types of games, hence why their top sports are ones which basket ball aside, are as you say fairly provincial.

American's as we know are staunchly, perhaps over the top nationalistic, but they just don't do enough sports to a high level that sees them competing in international team against team sports.

Shotrock - European football "fan" behaviour still has its problems - but to bring it up like that suggests you are 25 years behind the times. Yes there are still isolated incidents but it's not like the bad days of the 80s any more

Your off the cuff stereotyping is as bad as super's

BTW what do you call the basketball world cup "in your parts"?

Golf isn't a team sport. One tournament every year or so is not what a golfer should be judged on at the end of his career.

In the specific context of the Solheim Cup though, we shouldn't forget that USA has owned the trophy for most of its history - to the extent that there were murmurings just before the Ireland edition 2 years ago that it was a joke of a contest and should be changed / scrapped.

Not sure what the ratio is now - 8-4? (which would mean 8-2 pre-2011?)

ben,
But the camaraderie that you get playing team sports as soon as you're out of nappies comes out in European Team golf performances that I don't reckon you see so much from the Americans.
If in doubt, just look at/listen to T.Woods in Ryder Cup week. His performances sum up the prima donna attitude that serves Americans so well in individual-ish sports, including golf, not so much when there's Team involved.

Shotrock will never agree!

PS: 8-5 to America, largely because America has enjoyed vastly superior golfers, in number anyway. But where are the Hall Of Fame ladies now - retired almost every one, with no-one following in their footsteps, not on this weekend's showing.

Don't the Americans play college team golf before turning pro? I

Well the last 10-20 years has seen US basketball and ice hokey competing at the olympics with their best teams. That's a start. And soccer seems quite popular amongst kids (girls?).

Dont know about a baseball WC but agree that "World Series" is a farcial name.

super, cricket and rubgy is not played outside the commonwealth (a few exceptions for rugby). Bad comparison.

Why is 'World Series' a ludicrous name?

OK, it's only two countries, but here isn't anywhere else in the world that plays baseball to anywhere near that standard.

George1507 wrote:Why is 'World Series' a ludicrous name?

OK, it's only two countries, but here isn't anywhere else in the world that plays baseball to anywhere near that standard.

I'm not sure standard of play is the point. No teams from any other country in the world can actually even enter so it seems at odds with the "World" moniker is all. That said they can call it what they like.

Bob_the_Job wrote:

George1507 wrote:Why is 'World Series' a ludicrous name?

OK, it's only two countries, but here isn't anywhere else in the world that plays baseball to anywhere near that standard.

I'm not sure standard of play is the point.  No teams from any other country in the world can actually even enter so it seems at odds with the "World" moniker is all.  That said they can call it what they like.

I was once told that it is the World Series because it was originally sponsored by the "World News" or some other publication with "world" in the title. Not sure whether that's true or not.

Who really knows what is correct?

This seems a fair explanation though . . . .

http://roadsidephotos.sabr.org/baseball/name.htm

golfermartin wrote:

Bob_the_Job wrote:

George1507 wrote:Why is 'World Series' a ludicrous name?

OK, it's only two countries, but here isn't anywhere else in the world that plays baseball to anywhere near that standard.

I'm not sure standard of play is the point.  No teams from any other country in the world can actually even enter so it seems at odds with the "World" moniker is all.  That said they can call it what they like.

I was once told that it is the World Series because it was originally sponsored by the "World News" or some other publication with "world" in the title. Not sure whether that's true or not.

Housewives tale George.
It was two rival leagues that merged to create a "World" series.

super_realist wrote:

golfermartin wrote:

Bob_the_Job wrote:

George1507 wrote:Why is 'World Series' a ludicrous name?

OK, it's only two countries, but here isn't anywhere else in the world that plays baseball to anywhere near that standard.

I'm not sure standard of play is the point.  No teams from any other country in the world can actually even enter so it seems at odds with the "World" moniker is all.  That said they can call it what they like.

I was once told that it is the World Series because it was originally sponsored by the "World News" or some other publication with "world" in the title. Not sure whether that's true or not.

Housewives tale George.
It was two rival leagues that merged to create a "World" series.

I didn't say it was named for a newspaper. Someone else said that. It wasn't rival leagues that merged - it was created as a playoff series between two rival leagues, similar to today's situation, although the NL and AL are now both part of the MLB.

Either way, the name "World" is preposterous. Even the "World" snooker has a few more countries involved.

super

Did you bother to read the link kwini provided?

McLaren wrote:super

Did you bother to read the link kwini provided?

I did Mac, but only after I'd posted, well I skim read it.

Ironically, were it to have been named after the Newspaper it's the only acceptable way in which it could be called a World series.