Gatland's Ire.

Heard a little whisper today that Gatland is angry and getting more so, with the Ospreys.
It all boils down to them allowing Byrne ( with still a year to go under contract) to emigrate to France. That rankled him , but the latest happenings with Mike Phillips are said to have sent him into orbit, his view being that as Phillips is his preferred choice at 9 he really needs him to be starting games. That's clearly NOT going to happen, for this season, and beyond. To compound matters are the persistent rumours linking the Ospreys to three more SH players, names like Toeava and Mulliaina have been bandied about.
For their part the Ospreys are said to want talks with Gatland about his involvement over the Henson saga, the so-called "Gatland Law" but then agreeing to Hook jetting off to Perpignan, and agreeing that playing in France would not hurt Byrne's chances. For their part they want clarification of the Gatland ruling.

Is it time that both parties made a concerted effort to get around the table, thrash these things out before the world cup starts?

This whole situation jut makes me go

Only in Wales could this happen. Utterly ridiculous. And yes I think both sides should sit down and talk this out asap I feel before the situation gets worse.

This certainly wont be the first time relations have become strained.

The Ospreys have some very valid complaints against Gatland.

They were livid when Ryan was so publicly stripped of his captaincy and criticised after the Fiji fiasco. The public critisisms of Mike Phillips also rankled. Indeed the Ospreys and Gatland held "clear the air" talks after Ryan was so badly treated.

Other legitimate gripes include the selection and subsequent non-interest of Tom Prydie.

Seems ultimately to come down to the Ospreys as a business, versus the demands of a (transient) idealist coach.

Lots of conflicting interests here, it will be interesting to see how it all pans out.

rugbydreamer wrote:.................Only in Wales could this happen. Utterly ridiculous.......................

I think it is happening in England too. Unfortunately for Wales we have FAR fewer International class players at our disposal AND it is our National sport so the moves are seen through the prism of being the most talked about in the media in Wales. The French clubs have a LOT of money to splash out, and Rugby players are going to go for the money - that is the reality of a Professional game where careers are short.

I think for established Stars it is actually a good thing for them to play outside the Magners League - it would do our forward pack no end of good to experience the physical grind of a Top 14 or English Premiership season. I am pretty sure Gatland is openminded about this too. What IS infuriating at the Os is the quantity of young talent that is kicking its heels on the sidelines, whilst players from the Southern hemisphere are rotated through the first team season by season.

Rhys Webb is a case in point - I am sure Gatland would love to see him starting a majority of the Os games next year (so would I) but is it going to happen? Probably not - You don't spend a fistfull of cash on a SH player and then leave him to get splinters on the bench. It is infuriating - we talk about all the talent the regions are starting to produce - but only two of the Regions are prepared to BACK that talent. Unfortunately the Os are NOT one of those two

ML - that's the frustrating thing about the O's though. They've had a great system in place longer than both the Dragons and Scarlets for bringing through youth and they just aren't using them enough. Everyone's seen the sort of spirit generated amongst the supporters at the Dragons and Scarlets by seeing their local youngsters play so well. Their pride is there for all to see. Wish the O's would wake up and realise this though as they have a load of youngsters to choose from and who proved during the 6 nations period how well they can play. I hope they use them more next season.

All the players leaving the Ospreys desperately need a change of scene. Many of the players don't get on with the coaches, have become stale and need a new challenge.
Secondly the Ospreys have the best academy in Wales by a mile so bringing through the obvious talent within their youth ranks is a good idea.
Everyone will be better off for the changes.

Aye in about two years when you have tidy coaches.

AlynDavies wrote:All the players leaving the Ospreys desperately need a change of scene. Many of the players don't get on with the coaches, have become stale and need a new challenge.
Secondly the Ospreys have the best academy in Wales by a mile so bringing through the obvious talent within their youth ranks is a good idea.
Everyone will be better off for the changes.

Unfortunately getting rid of the players (allowing them to leave) was NOT the right way to resolve this situation. There can be little doubt where the REAL problem lies, and I for one am tired of being short changed by SJ and Ho-Hum.

The tactics employed by the team beggar belief at times. No-one seems to know what is happening on the pitch. We have a backline that (on paper) is bristling with strike runners and deft handlers and what do we do? Kick, kick, kick, kick, kick (and kick badly most of the time too). We have a pack that should be dominating most of the other packs it comes up against but is only fitful in its performance. This to me is merely indicative of the poor quality of Ho-Hum's coaching, something that is confirmed to me every time I hear Sean Holley talking during or after a game - the man SOUNDS clueless. Unfortunately though, Mr Holley's (in)ability as a coach is exacerbated by the execrable Scott Johnson.

Dressing Room unrest to the point of open rebellion follows the buffoned buffoon around in the same way that flies are attracted to a turd. He appears disingenuous in his media appearances and I am in no doubt that his presence is the REAL problem at the Liberty. The club will continue to be riven by internal divides whilst this tri-umvirate is at the top of the coaching tree and Andrew Hore is in charge of the club. I say sack these four now - before we start on a new cycle of settling a first team, developing future internationals and then watch them grow disaffected with first club and then the game itself.

I really don't think Ho-Hum tells the players to play the way they are at the moment. Far to many players look disinterested and off form. These players have been kicked out.
Holley probably has till after the World Cup to save his skin, if not you can expect Steve Hansen to come join in October after his New Zealand contract expires.

I am not so sure that Hansen WILL join Ospreys, if he harbours ANY ambition to get the top job with the ABs (and I believe he does) he wont be leaving the Southern hemisphere.

As I have posted elsewhere though - I believe that the problem at the Liberty is Scott Johnson. He undercuts and undermines the authority of everyone who challenges him, he is anathema to team spirit. I don't believe that he has the ability to fulfill his job role - and I fail to see any evidence from his past work elsewhere in the game that suggests he should be any higher in any rugby organisation than as a junior coach.

He certainly hasn't had much success in a role more senior.

The NZRFU have already made it clear they dont regard him as more than a back up coach. Hansen asked for the Crusaders job and was turned down flat.
Hansen has also gone on record saying he wants to "broaden his coaching horizons". He is not going to coach some lower division New Zealand club for a hot dog and $50 a week. He will take the money and head coach role on offer in Wales.

Look boys let me spell it out. Hansen is worse than useless. You have already had your fingers burnt by employing the monkey rather than the organ grinder and now you want to do it again! You know who you really want don't you. MR.

Glas

speaking to a retired former international just weeks ago and he reckoned that Hansen was nothing short of brilliant, firm, fair, impartial and organised.
Rated him as the best coach he'd ever worked under.

Hansen? Working FOR Johnson?

ML wrote:Hansen? Working FOR Johnson?

Well Hansen worked for henry with Scott Johnson before. Hore has moved into management from fitness coaching.

As for Hansen im going off Alfies autobiography, he turned that drunken idiot into a passionate leader who led by example and gave everything for Wales. True he isnt a great tactical coach, but jesus the Ospreys dont have that anyway!

Players are not looked after by the Ospreys management, the reason Henson left was because they kept playing him before he was recovered from injury. Hook was denied a shoulder operation when Gatland wanted him to have one, before the six nations last year but they decided to 'nurse' him through the season - he was having painkiller injections before the start of every game, then everyone was surprised when he was falling off tackles. Gatland has remarked before aboutthe number of injured players down there - they have no idea how to run an under tens team never mind anything else.

AlynDavies wrote:The NZRFU have already made it clear they dont regard him as more than a back up coach. Hansen asked for the Crusaders job and was turned down flat.
Hansen has also gone on record saying he wants to "broaden his coaching horizons". He is not going to coach some lower division New Zealand club for a hot dog and $50 a week. He will take the money and head coach role on offer in Wales.

Alyn, a correction. The job at the Crusaders got shot down by a couple of factions in NZ rugby who felt that the Crusaders already had too much influence at the top (remember, Henry, Smith, Hansen and Tew all have strong Cantab connections. As do Jock Hobbs and Robbie Deans). Since then the Tew faction has strengthened it's grip on the reins as the Hobbs/Deans faction is headless while Hobbs battles cancer and Deans is in Australia.

As I've already commented in another post, Hansen has the inside running for the ABs job, there simply isn't anyone else in NZ with enough experience, while there's no chance of Robbie Deans, John Mitchell or Warren Gatland getting a call.

Kiwireddevil wrote:Alyn, a correction. The job at the Crusaders got shot down by a couple of factions in NZ rugby who felt that the Crusaders already had too much influence at the top (remember, Henry, Smith, Hansen and Tew all have strong Cantab connections. As do Jock Hobbs and Robbie Deans). Since then the Tew faction has strengthened it's grip on the reins as the Hobbs/Deans faction is headless while Hobbs battles cancer and Deans is in Australia.

As I've already commented in another post, Hansen has the inside running for the ABs job, there simply isn't anyone else in NZ with enough experience, while there's no chance of Robbie Deans, John Mitchell or Warren Gatland getting a call.

Gatland has a release clause in his contract that if he's offered the All blacks job he can leave. I think Wales have a clause saying if he doesnt get Wales to the quarter finals in the world Cup they can sack him.
I really don't think the NZRU trust Hansen enough to let him have the Head Coach job, it's just an opinion.

AlynDavies wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:Alyn, a correction. The job at the Crusaders got shot down by a couple of factions in NZ rugby who felt that the Crusaders already had too much influence at the top (remember, Henry, Smith, Hansen and Tew all have strong Cantab connections. As do Jock Hobbs and Robbie Deans). Since then the Tew faction has strengthened it's grip on the reins as the Hobbs/Deans faction is headless while Hobbs battles cancer and Deans is in Australia.

As I've already commented in another post, Hansen has the inside running for the ABs job, there simply isn't anyone else in NZ with enough experience, while there's no chance of Robbie Deans, John Mitchell or Warren Gatland getting a call.

Gatland has a release clause in his contract that if he's offered the All blacks job he can leave. I think Wales have a clause saying if he doesnt get Wales to the quarter finals in the world Cup they can sack him.
I really don't think the NZRU trust Hansen enough to let him have the Head Coach job, it's just an opinion.

It's not a bad point, and I wish Deans was available come 2012 - but Hansen and Steve Tew are close allies*. Also I think the NZRU trusts Gatland even less than Hansen. They turned Gatland down for the Chiefs job, preferring Ian Foster!


*Not that that would necessarily stop Teflon Tew from choosing someone else if he had to

Further to that. There are only 4 New Zealanders currently coaching at a reasonable level who have a Super rugby trophy on their coaching resumes. They are Henry, Deans, Smith and Hansen (as assistant coach admittedly).

Kiwireddevil wrote:Further to that. There are only 4 New Zealanders currently coaching at a reasonable level who have a Super rugby trophy on their coaching resumes. They are Henry, Deans, Smith and Hansen (as assistant coach admittedly).

to be fair to Gatland he has had most of his career in the northern hemisphere, but he has won.

Won The English League in 2003, 2004 and 2005.
Won Heineken Cup in 2004
Won 2003 Parker Pen European Cup
Won National Provincial Championship with Waikato in 2005
Won Grandslam with Wales in 2008
Selected as forwards coach on the 2007 Lions tour

Not a bad resume to be fair!

The "bad blood" between the O's and Gatland has now surfaced with Gatland sounding off, while the o's sounded astounded.

This has to be one for the WRU, and while they are at it they should also look into the relations between Pontypridd and the Blues an Neath and the Ospreys

ospreylian wrote:The "bad blood" between the O's and Gatland has now surfaced with Gatland sounding off, while the o's sounded astounded.

This has to be one for the WRU, and while they are at it they should also look into the relations between Pontypridd and the Blues an Neath and the Ospreys

Don't think you'll ever sort out the bad blood between ponty and the blues Both sides of the fence arn't exactly innocent though (including fans). .

Mandy

That;s what they thought about the northern Ireland situation, but talking with purpose has changed all that.
If we want things to change it can be done.

The Ponty supporters will never follow the Blues (Cardiff) in this life time, the Celtic Warriors was shut down to allow Cardiff to qualify for the HC.

I think Blyth is a bit disingenuous, saying he's not aware of any problems, he must be the only one then! He needs to open his eyes and ears. There is clearly something not right down there and for Gatland to come out and actually say in a television interview about problems speaks volumes.

paddy wrote:I think Blyth is a bit disingenuous, saying he's not aware of any problems, he must be the only one then! He needs to open his eyes and ears. There is clearly something not right down there and for Gatland to come out and actually say in a television interview about problems speaks volumes.

Paddy- how else should Blyth respond? Counter accusations or even admiting culpability? Both would be extremely naive PR moves.

Almost as naive as publically criticising the most successful region, which also provides the majority if team Wales players.

We just witnessed a master class in how to alienate the dressing room, well done Gatland.

"speaks volumes" - please elaborate.

Loki wrote:

paddy wrote:I think Blyth is a bit disingenuous, saying he's not aware of any problems, he must be the only one then! He needs to open his eyes and ears. There is clearly something not right down there and for Gatland to come out and actually say in a television interview about problems speaks volumes.

Paddy- how else should Blyth respond? Counter accusations or even admiting culpability? Both would be extremely naive PR moves.

Almost as naive as publically criticising the most successful region, which also provides the majority if team Wales players.

We just witnessed a master class in how to alienate the dressing room, well done Gatland.

"speaks volumes" - please elaborate.

I agree Loki - Blyth had no option but to feign surprise. But I dont think Gatland HAS alienated his dressing room - i suspect that the Osprey's players in the Welsh squad are relieved to get this squabble out in the open. It now appears that Hore, Johnson & Ho-Hum are hated by their junior coaches, their senior players, their junior players, their afilliated clubs, most of their supporters AND the Welsh National coaching set up. All we need now is for one of the "fantastic four" to turn on the other three and we have a complete meltdown of the Ospreys region.

Methinks it is time for something to be done.

" I agree Loki - Blyth had no option but to feign surprise. But I dont think Gatland HAS alienated his dressing room - i suspect that the Osprey's players in the Welsh squad are relieved to get this squabble out in the open. It now appears that Hore, Johnson & Ho-Hum are hated by their junior coaches, their senior players, their junior players, their afilliated clubs, most of their supporters AND the Welsh National coaching set up. All we need now is for one of the "fantastic four" to turn on the other three and we have a complete meltdown of the Ospreys region. "


You suspect.

Loki wrote:
You suspect.

Indeed I do! It is the best sense I can make of the known facts:

The strife between the region and one of it's principal clubs are public knowledge with coaches being openly critical.
Senior Players are leaving the club in droves at the end of their contracts.
Senior players are trying to negotiate themselves out of their contracts.
Coaching staff have left after pledging themselves to the club.
The National coach has voiced his concerns.
The media pundits have voiced concerns.

Add to this the fact that MOST if not ALL of the Ospreys based Welsh National team players have dropped off in form alarmingly for both club and country, then I think it is pretty safe to say that there is a problem at the Liberty stadium.

Can you think of an altenative explanation that satisfactorily explains all this?

"Indeed I do! It is the best sense I can make of the known facts:"

I think you're being very liberal with the term "facts"

Each example of a "fact" you cite is utterly subjective.

"The strife between the region and one of it's principal clubs are public knowledge with coaches being openly critical."

"coaches" or one coach? The problems with Neath are well documented and principally involve just Cuddy and Hawkes. You may also want to note the dignified lack of open criticism from the Ospreys.

Senior players leaving and trying to wriggle out of their contracts - utterly subjective, for instance I've heard they were pushed. I notice you also don't mention our senior players re-signing eg. Shane, Wyn Jones, Thomas. All excellent players, extremely loyal and true Ospreys.

We have kept all of the players we wanted to except Hook.

"The national coach has raised his concerns" - or the failing national coach has aired his frustrations in a petulant and chirlish manner, completely disgracing the role of the Welsh National Coach. In the process loosing some key, extremely loyal Ospreys- who happen to be the core team Wales.

"the media pundits have voiced concerns" - need I even point out the obvious here?

ML - I'm not trying to be combative here, as you can probably tell, Gatland has inflamed my ire!

That's fair enough Loki. But we havent kept the players we wanted. Hook and Byrne and Mitchell were all wanted at the Liberty.

Mike Phillips started trying to negotiate himself out of his new 4 year "multi million pound" contract almost as soon as it was signed.

The argument between Ospreys and Neath go beyond just Cuddy and Hawkes.

AWJ signed because he was club captain, Shane because he is at the end of his career and doesnt want or need a foreign adventure. Would anyone else have wanted Thomas?

You argue against all these facts one at a time, but you cannot come up with a reason why everyone is fed up with the Ospreys coaches. Of all the arguments in Welsh Rugby - and there are lots - the Ospreys coaches are at the center of most of them. It makes a change for Gatland NOT to be the center of controversy in the Welsh game, and when commentators who are as uncritical as the BBC Scrum V team are talking about the Os having problems - you KNOW there has to be a problem.

I am an Ospreys fan - have been since their inception, always will be, but what irks me most is not the disappointing results, it is the HOPELESS, JOYLESS, INEPT, BORING brand of Rugby that has been imposed under the current coaching set up. We are clueless and hopeless as a team, relying on moments of individual brilliance to win us games.

Hore, Johnson & Ho-Hum talk of letting the senior players go and talk of giving youth its head - explain that to Rhys when the new SH scrum-half arrives. Explain that to Owens when Muliaina/Jane or whoever arrives. Its a smoke screen, an exercise in diversion and wishful thinking. It is (like Roger Blyth's surprise at Gatland's criticism) feigned.

There is no getting away from it - something is very wrong at the Liberty - and it would seem you are about the only person (apart from Hore, SJ & Ho-Hum) who wont admit it!

Lets hope we can sort it out before the start of the next season

The main thrust of my argument was merely to illustrate that taken in isolation, each "fact" is utterly subjective.

Regarding the players, again it was an attempt to show that it is possible to focus on the positive here and spin it to suit any agenda.

We shall have to agree to disagree regarding which players we wanted to keep.

Another clear opinion difference is our view on NWQ as I believe we should use our full quota - but that's for another day

If you feel the rugby this year has been poor then that too is your opinion. We scored the most tries in the Magners last time I checked, I'm quite happy with that.

Whilst you interperate the current state of the regions as "something wrong", I see it as a transitional period. Neither very good or very bad, but necessary and pragmatic.

I don't expect great things from next season but I do expect that I shall enjoy it!

I don't doubt your commitment as a fan, but as a supporter I do just that and dislike the lazy media driven criticism of our region.

Then why the Taibach cover up? It is heck of a coincidence that all of your current troubles started with a drop off of form since Christmas. What is going on at the Liberty bois bach?

I think we just wore ourselves out when we gave the Scarlets a good

Aye, fine, if that's the extent of your ambition. I honestly don't know what the problem is with you or whether the Taibach business has anything to do with it, but Wales needs you to sort it out. Turning a blind eye will not get it sorted out.

ML you said it all really, and I don't see how any true supporter of the Ospreys can say they were happy with their performance over this season. I too am a supporter of this team and it pains me to see how far they have fallen , although the rot had started to set in at the back end of the season before. You say they scored the most tries in the Magners and you are happy with that, well if that's the extent of your ambition for this region I am not surprised that the coaches down there feel they are not under any pressure to perform, that's why Holley sounds so smug all the time when being interviewed. Please don't tell me you were happy with their performance against Aironi and were happy to see them humiliated yet again by Munster. You only have to look at their body language on the field to see that they are not a happy camp. It's all very well to keep bringing up their win over Scarlets - what about their loss - both home and away to the Dragons? The thing that really bugs me is that we are being taken for a ride by Johnson, Hore etc who it seems can pull the wool over everyone's eyes - how they must be having a laugh at our expense. As I've posted before any other coach/manager anywhere else where professional rugby is played would have been shown the door.Did I say Professional? don't make me laugh, the entire rugby world laughed at their attempts to get a coach down there after Lyn Jones's departure, and laughed even harder when they found out who this 'wonderful' coach was. I am sorry to say that we have been suckered in and it hurts like hell to admit it.

SORRY ML this section of my previous post was for LOKI

"You say they scored the most tries in the Magners and you are happy with that, well if that's the extent of your ambition for this region I am not surprised that the coaches down there feel they are not under any pressure to perform, that's why Holley sounds so smug all the time when being interviewed. Please don't tell me you were happy with their performance against Aironi and were happy to see them humiliated yet again by Munster. You only have to look at their body language on the field to see that they are not a happy camp."

Strange how this thread has turned into an Ospreys and how bad they are doing thread.

Come on guys, this is about Gatland for god sake, should he really be going to the press in this manner?

I will make a prediction now.............the man is losing it and because of that Wales will bomb at the world cup.

I dont think Gatland has done anything wrong at all:

1) Holley has said that he thinks its a bad thing that the Ospreys has so many Welsh internationals and have now got rid of many of them. Mitchell, Hook, Phillips, Henson etc.
This flies in the face of Gatlands wish to keep all of Wales senior players in Wales.

2) Secondly Holley went on record as saying that his players came back from Wales duty in the 6 Nations with an attitude problem. He basically blamed Wales and Gatland for his sides inability to win games. Passing the buck in every sense.

Why wouldnt Gatland respond to this blatant antagonism?

I have to say I think some of the comments from Scott J were very cutting in response to Gatland's comments, SJ said a lot, I wondered whether Gatland watched any of the rugby over the Xmas period before picking the 6N squad, was in in the UK?
I heard the Ospreys were not impressed with Gatland over R Jones captain issue as Gatland said the Osprey knew he was going to lose the captaincy!

Gatland is far from stupid. Before he took the job he must have heard about Ruddockgate, player power and SJ's part in it and he knows that SJ has an agenda all his own and would like nothing better that to see him fail. I wouldn't be at all surprised if SJ has his eye on the Welsh coaching job should Gatland leave. You heard it here first!

paddy wrote:Gatland is far from stupid. Before he took the job he must have heard about Ruddockgate, player power and SJ's part in it and he knows that SJ has an agenda all his own and would like nothing better that to see him fail. I wouldn't be at all surprised if SJ has his eye on the Welsh coaching job should Gatland leave. You heard it here first!

There is no way Sj will get anywhere near the Wales job, he isnt liked within the WRU. He basically played a role in undermining Ruddock during his tenure. Then as soon as Ruddock goes, SJ gets promoted to head coach, then he, himself buggers off back to Australia a couple of weeks later, leaving Wales with a massive problem. SJ could of had the job but wanted to go back home when the going got tough.

Warren Gatland =Kiwi=New Zealander-New Zealand central contracts.

Wales=Warren Gatland=Had coach==Trying to bring New Zealand style of contracts to Wales,If you do not play in New Zealand you do not get picked for New Zealand......New Zealand between Rugby World Cups are regularly ranked No 1 Team in the world.

Wales on the other hand between Rugby World Cups are reguly ranked 8/9th in the World Rankins.

A big difference, dont you think.

New Zealand always seem to have players coming through in any position(convey belt system.)

Wales on the other hand do not have so many players coming through on a regular basis. There fore causing problems for Wales.

majesticimperialman wrote:Warren Gatland =Kiwi=New Zealander-New Zealand central contracts.

Wales=Warren Gatland=Had coach==Trying to bring New Zealand style of contracts to Wales,If you do not play in New Zealand you do not get picked for New Zealand......New Zealand between Rugby World Cups are regularly ranked No 1 Team in the world.

Wales on the other hand between Rugby World Cups are reguly ranked 8/9th in the World Rankins.

A big difference, dont you think.

New Zealand always seem to have players coming through in any position(convey belt system.)

Wales on the other hand do not have so many players coming through on a regular basis. There fore causing problems for Wales.

Ireland have central contracts, they do well because of it, England do not and they are competitive too.

It is a tricky situation because although central contracting keeps talent in Wales it also restriCts young played from game time.

Letting older more experienced players move abroad solves the problem.

The reason Johnson wants Gatland to imply his law more firmly is that it reduces players wages for ambitious welsh players allowing more budget to go on foreign nwq players no more no less.

majesticimperialman wrote:Warren Gatland =Kiwi=New Zealander-New Zealand central contracts.

Wales=Warren Gatland=Had coach==Trying to bring New Zealand style of contracts to Wales,If you do not play in New Zealand you do not get picked for New Zealand......New Zealand between Rugby World Cups are regularly ranked No 1 Team in the world.

Wales on the other hand between Rugby World Cups are reguly ranked 8/9th in the World Rankins.

A big difference, dont you think.

New Zealand always seem to have players coming through in any position(convey belt system.)

Wales on the other hand do not have so many players coming through on a regular basis. There fore causing problems for Wales.

Wales have many, many young talented players coming through...

Ospreys:
Ryan Bevington / Prop / 22
Rhys Webb / Scrum Half / 22
Dan biggar / Fly Half / 21
Matthew Morgan / Fly Half / 19
Gareth Owen / Utility Back / 22
Kristian Phillips / Wing / 20
Tom Prydie / Wing / 19
Alun Wyn Jones / Lock / 25
James Hook / Utility Back / 25
Craig Mitchell / Prop / 24
Jonathan Spratt / Centre / 24

Cardiff:
Scott Andrews / Prop / 21
Sam Warburton / Openside / 22
Leigh Halfpenny / Wing / 22
Josh Navidi / Flanker / 20
Dan Fish / Full Back / 20
Bradley Davies / Lock / 25
Jamie roberts / Centre / 24
Chris Czekaj / Wing, Full Back / 25
Lloyd Williams / Scrum Half / 21
Reuben Tucker / Flanker / 18
Harry Robinson / Wing / 18
Maucaley Cook / Lock / 19

Scarlets:
Lou Reed / Lock / Scarlets / 23
Scott Williams / Centre / 20
Josh Turnbull / Flanker / 23
Rhys Priestland / Fly Hlaf / Full Back / 23
Tavis Knoyle / Scrum Half / 23
George North / Wing, Centre / 19
Jonathan Davies / Centre / 23
Ken Owens / Hooker / 24
Steven Shingler / Fly Half / 19
Rob McCusker / Flanker / 24

Dragons:
Toby Faletau / Back Row / 20
Dan Lydiate / Blindside / 23
Steffan Jones / Fly Half, Full Back / 20
Jason Tovey / Fly Half / 22
Aled Brew / Wing / 24
James Leadbeater / Scrum Half / 22

So we don't have many players coming through do we?

And there are probably a dozen more at 3 of the regions too.

Chill guys, good debate going, no need to throw the Wumming accusations around

Appologies for the very slow reply, just finished my finals.

Anyway, AllynDavies: with the greatest of respect to a fellow Ospreys supporter it saddens me to see you supporting Gatland in this fiasco.

I think this is an irreconcilable difference in opinion, as a supporter I am thouroughly biased to my region, but I feel this is right.

There is a poster by the name AllynDavies over on the Ospreys forum receiving a bit of a hard time.

That sort of forum response is exactly why I don't post over there.

However I hope you glean some greater insight into the many slights Gatland has delivered to your, and my region.