World player of year and junior world player of the year

First topic message reminder :

Sam Davies is junior world player of the year, I think Halfpenny will become the World player of the year, so if that happens it would be a first for Wales. Compared to where Wales were in rugby terms 15 years ago (just before Henry became coach), it would be sign of just how much Wales has progressed and improved as a professional rugby-playing nation.

Scotland had a decent side when Kenny played for them...but you are correct in what you say.  

We had more then just Kenny though... that 78 squad was as good as we've ever been. Yet being great in some departments and dire in others will not suffice. Its better to be very good in all for the international scene, at least in team sports.

fa0019 wrote:you don't get awards for being consistent... how many awards did Richard Hill win in his career? How many awards has BOD won... he's been on 4 lions series, 4 world cups and played in perhaps 12 6N and whilst he's won 3 6N awards for best player he's never been able to win the IRB award.. hell, in 2 of the years he won 6N player of the tournament he didn't even get shortlisted in the IRB award (06 & 07).

Although the only year I actually think he deserved it was in 2009... and then had Fourie Du Preez won it I wouldn't say he could be disgruntled.... it was a 50/50 call.... and then the IRB committee gave it to McCaw... who was average all year, won sweet FA with the ABs and it was probably due to the IRB having a problem with PDivvy's management style.

FA is right on in that both du Preez and BOD had better seasons than McCaw. Maybe they were making up for the season before where McCaw got trumped by Shane Williams. Carter won the award last year and IMO McCaw should have walked it.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:you don't get awards for being consistent... how many awards did Richard Hill win in his career? How many awards has BOD won... he's been on 4 lions series, 4 world cups and played in perhaps 12 6N and whilst he's won 3 6N awards for best player he's never been able to win the IRB award.. hell, in 2 of the years he won 6N player of the tournament he didn't even get shortlisted in the IRB award (06 & 07).

Although the only year I actually think he deserved it was in 2009... and then had Fourie Du Preez won it I wouldn't say he could be disgruntled.... it was a 50/50 call.... and then the IRB committee gave it to McCaw... who was average all year, won sweet FA with the ABs and it was probably due to the IRB having a problem with PDivvy's management style.

Ireland were unbeaten in '09 with BOD as captain, they won their first grand slam in 50 years and he won the Heineken cup. He had an incredible year so really did deserve the title in '09.

My memory of 2009 was it was a hard year to call. Du Preez really stood out in the middle of the year, but was probably hampered by the Boks very poor form in November. McCaw missed the start of the year through injury and had a sluggish start. O Driscoll had a good year but was also hampered by injury and arguably an easier schedule.

They all had fairly similar win/loss ratios for 2009. So it's probably not as clear cut as it might appear. I'd have been happy with any of them. It's probably one of the more open decisions.

The way the IRB treated PDV was a little beyond the line IMO. The IRB did everything to stop rewarding him and his players and often individual members publicly slammed him....  so he had opinions.. usually because his back was against the wall from day one. It was one thing which showed the IRB's true colours in an unfavourable light.

How McCaw could have a IRB year when his form was poor-average and the boks did them over 3-zip is beyond me.

It was an "anyone but" award. Nothing against the man, but it showed why the IRB is still an old boys club... and PDV face and his boks just didn't fit.

disneychilly wrote:

fa0019 wrote:you don't get awards for being consistent... how many awards did Richard Hill win in his career? How many awards has BOD won... he's been on 4 lions series, 4 world cups and played in perhaps 12 6N and whilst he's won 3 6N awards for best player he's never been able to win the IRB award.. hell, in 2 of the years he won 6N player of the tournament he didn't even get shortlisted in the IRB award (06 & 07).

Although the only year I actually think he deserved it was in 2009... and then had Fourie Du Preez won it I wouldn't say he could be disgruntled.... it was a 50/50 call.... and then the IRB committee gave it to McCaw... who was average all year, won sweet FA with the ABs and it was probably due to the IRB having a problem with PDivvy's management style.

FA is right on in that both du Preez and BOD had better seasons than McCaw. Maybe they were making up for the season before where McCaw got trumped by Shane Williams. Carter won the award last year and IMO McCaw should have walked it.

Cant argue with that Disney.

blackcanelion wrote: McCaw missed the start of the year through injury and had a sluggish start. O Driscoll had a good year but was also hampered by injury and arguably an easier schedule.

They all had fairly similar win/loss ratios for 2009. So it's probably not as clear cut as it might appear. I'd have been happy with any of them.  It's probably one of the more open decisions.

O'Driscoll was not hampered by injury at all that year. Did you just pull that out of thin air? He played in all 6N games, all key Leinster Hcup games and all November internationals.

He may have has a slightly easier schedule but SA lost to Saracens that year which should have been an easy win.

In their one head to head game that year Ireland beat SA:

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/irish/2009/1128/257935-ireland_southafrica1/

O'Driscoll also scored a last minute try to draw with Oz in the other big Nov international.

Come on Guns.... SA were knackered by the end of their long season. They lost to France, Ireland, Leicester and Saracens on that tour and barely beat Italy. We said so even before the tour... I remember Biltong and myself talking about it after the Currie Cup SFs when the Cheetahs marched the Sharks and all bok front row scrum after scrum after scrum.

Getting marginally beat by Ireland under those circumstances doesn't mean everything they did prior is washed away. It was their own undoing sure.. PDV should have rested the players from the AI tour but he was foolish and thats the difference between a guy who can coach and a guy who can manage a team. It hampered their 2010 season and their RWC11 preparation but it was his decision.

But that aside their record in the summer supercedes

SA were the best side in 09 without a shadow of doubt. They played 6 matches vs. the Lions and ABs and won 5.... they would have probably won all 6 had they put out a full strength side in the Lions dead rubber. No one has that record. Thats the best out of all the pro tours of 97, 01, 05, 09 and 11.

fa0019 wrote:Come on Guns.... SA were knackered by the end of their long season. They lost to France, Ireland, Leicester and Saracens on that tour and barely beat Italy. We said so even before the tour... I remember Biltong and myself talking about it after the Currie Cup SFs when the Cheetahs marched the Sharks and all bok front row scrum after scrum after scrum.

I know but arguing that SA had a harder schedule doesnt really stand up as a reason for DuPreez getting the award if SA were losing to club sides.

fa0019 wrote:
Getting marginally beat by Ireland under those circumstances doesn't mean everything they did prior is washed away. It was their own undoing sure.. PDV should have rested the players from the AI tour but he was foolish and thats the difference between a guy who can coach and a guy who can manage a team. It hampered their 2010 season and their RWC11 preparation but it was his decision.

But that aside their record in the summer supercedes

SA were the best side in 09 without a shadow of doubt. They played 6 matches vs. the Lions and ABs and won 5.... they would have probably won all 6 had they put out a full strength side in the Lions dead rubber. No one has that record. Thats the best out of all the pro tours of 97, 01, 05, 09 and 11.

Yes they did have a great year otherwise.

well he didn't play in either club matches, wasn't even in the 22... Pienaar played 9 at Leicester and Hougaard played 9 at Saracens if I recall... and Heini Adams on the bench!! Thats a blast from the past.

fa0019 wrote:well he didn't play in either club matches, wasn't even in the 22... Pienaar played 9 at Leicester and Hougaard played 9 at Saracens if I recall... and Heini Adams on the bench!! Thats a blast from the past.

Good memory.

Remembered as Hougaard was getting shut down at every opportunity vs. Saracens... it was near as bad as Bergamasco.

PDIV really was a mistake, pathetic coach and manager as much as he was buddy buddy with the players etc.

That squad should have had an easy 85% win rate between 07 and 11 RWC. Shocking return of results but no country shoots itself in the foot better than SA because of politics etc. He also left it all in a shambles for HM to pick up and in the situation HM has done pretty well except for the draws to ENG at home and ARG away.

Thanks for bringing back some bad memories fa....but as long as no one goes into detail of the Streuli years ill quickly recover....

In 09 FDP was clearly the deserved winner, even NH rugby scribes were shocked he didnt walk away with the reward.

Onwards and upwards for the Boks now!

He had his faults yes but his record in the summer of 09 was record setting. Give him credit for that at least.

No one gave him a chance, he was constantly under undue pressure and that caused a difficult environment.... his attitude and how he developed a siege mentality is as much due to his own insufficiencies as it is to the pressure the press, the fans and the world rugby community put on him unfairly.

We all are responsible for that and for me it was one of shame on us.

To be honest I think the level of expectation was deserved as that was an exceptional group of players.

He also shot his mouth off like a fool the day he was appointed about how he was going to transform Bok rugby etc blah blah blah. Really arrogant considering he was convinced he would improve the game of world champions!

We will never know how successful they could have been if A Coetzee, J White or H Meyer had been coaching / managing post 07 but perhaps that brief period in 09 is some sort of indication.

MMaaxx

Come on dude.

He was in fact more qualified then White was when he got the job. PDV was U21 bok coach, Bulls assistant coach, Falcons head coach. White was a video analyst, then U21 coach. That's it.

Yet did White get all the cheap shots about him being the best man for the job... no. Did White get people like craig dowd saying he was no coach or former captains saying the boks were in for 4 lean years???
Everyone in SA and abroad laughed at him but no one laughed at others with similar records.

He was right I'm sad to say... had he been white people would have said ok... because he wasn't people expected him to be the very best and to attain the highest standards.

His 2 predecessors had far worse experience and records prior to him so why the special treatment??? This isn't a South Africa thing... those abroad, those in the IRB reacted just the same.... someone said he was a token appointment and then all hell broke loose.

He was quoted in saying he knew of 60 ACI players who could play for the boks... people were in uproar.... what they didn't know was his next sentence... he then said that whilst there were 60 players who were potential test standard, most were 3/4s and therefore given there were only 15 positions available in 3/4s for SR sides then most of those players would not get a shot at the boks.

By the end he had few friends he could trust... one of them being John Smit. No wonder he kept him on after 2009 given he was his strongest supporter when we were all calling for his head.

When have you ever heard players ignoring phone calls, refusing to meet when he flys in to see them. Players openly saying they don't rate him??? Any other coach and that player would have been banned for life.

There was an agenda to limit him from day 1. It was beyond disgraceful. Had the boks, the SA public and the rugby community given him the same ride as other coaches it would have been totally different.

MMaaxx... mate, I'm not throwing stones or making accusations against others here..... I was as critical during his tenure. I hold my hands up. But I looked at the whole thing after reading his book and honestly mate, I felt really ashamed.

I think Pdiv was better that he was given credit for. At least thats how it seemed. However, he didnt really do himself many favours at times with his media image.

GunsGerms wrote:I think Pdiv was better that he was given credit for. At least thats how it seemed. However, he didnt really do himself many favours at times with his media image.

I agree Guns... but poke a dog with a stick enough and eventually he will bite and act wild. He wasn't smart as in media savvy and couldn't manage a player in terms of conditioning, but he was a decent coach in my book.

Griff wrote:Also, I'm not sure he's 'standout performer amongst all of his peers', but I can't remember too many times that the opposition has got the better of him in the last few years.

Paris 2013 was a glaring example, but genuinely I'm struggling to think of time since 2008/2009, and even during then, where the Welsh pack and Adam have been comprehensively on the back foot. I'd also say that the French pitch was diabolical, and how much of the French 'superiority' there was due to that, we'll never know, but it was getting to the stage where one or two more penalties and one prop would have to have been sent to the bin.

P Divvy was a very good coach, who was probably killed by the ridiculously great 2009 the Boks had. Do yourself a favour and look up how many coaches boast two away victories in New Zealand, or how many completed a 3-0 calender sweep. five points away from a Grand Slam as well. Sure we didn't win the world cup, but a Lions win, a 3-0 sweep vs NZ, and a spell at the top matches well vs anyone. A 5-6 W/L record vs NZ is as good as other gets on the modern game.

I agree Kingraf

The only problem was that he couldn't manage... he could coach a side, spot talent and pick a side... but he didn't know how to manage players, keep them fresh, rotate and rest. His vision was very obtuse.

It was here which was his biggest downfall... that and relying on Smit too much.

True. But I wonder how much of that was due to external pressures. Twist it anyway you like, but being the first person of colour to coach the Boks came with huge pressure - Some real, some imagined. I remember him saying he was going to rest the Bulls and Stormers players for the game in Cardiff in 2010, but then when the time came, I suppose he felt he couldn't afford to lose. Same with the Frans Steyn issue - He said multiple times that my namesake was not up to the standard required fitness wise, wouldn't speak to him etc, and yet the rugby fraternity in SA blew him off, some ridiculing him and sided with Steyn. Now Steyn is in the intl. rugby wilderness - why? Because everyone told him PdV doesn't know what he talking about, and that he was right.

He was right.... people expected him to be whiter then white, to never screw up and for his CV to be impeccable which is strange given his 2 predecessors had worse experience then he had.

Best moustache in rugby since Richard Loe mind.

Ja - the Steyn issue isba pretty obvious indication that the knives were out for him. A guy who used to weigh 100kg comes back from France 15kgs heavier and the coach gets criticized for pointing out the obvious.

Screened through someone saying had White continued we would easily have had an 85% winning rate - just about shows the double standards... White had a losing 67% win ratio but we would somehow have gotten to an 85% win rate? Similarly, Meyer hasn't actually beaten the All Blacks yet, while Divvy didn't second time out. Its easy to forget that had Steyns boot been working we might well have won the world cup, given our record in NZ under Divvy..

Completely right about the moustache, mind you

I do blame him a little for the Steyn debacle actually.

Steyn has been our golden boy... He is such a top performer and the stats show it... when he plays the boks win rate shoots up... when he doesn't it drops.

PDV should have built his team around him not ferry him about the backline.

Star players have to be loved like Fergie did to Cantona and Ronaldo... had he done so I doubt he would have gone to France in the first place.... and at the minimum he should have put him on a strict regime to maintain.
Players are adults yes but a coach should be involved.

I hear what you're saying, but Divvy was never going to get the respect needed from Steyn in order put him on the regime... Frans was treated like our crown jewel in 2009, but the money he was offered was too good, I suppose, €750k is a lot of dosh. I suspect that POd Divvy, and then in 2010, he comes in fat, and I suppose the relationship strained. They seemed alright come world cup time, mind. Back to back man of the match performances from Steyn.

had he played in the QF.... the boks would have gone through to the SF... and perhaps could have been the one team to beat NZ.

FA mate I reckon if you'd met NZ in the final that may well have been the case but there was no way in hell anyone would have beaten NZ in that semi-even Weepu's missed kicks aside.

Steyn was a big blunder admin wise though definitely agreed. Imagine him this weekend. NZ wouldn't want to risk penalties 70m out!

Should have paid Weepu's bonus' for point scoring in doughnuts!

have heard with regular monotony that steyn is dangerous from this and that. He has not either played well or kicked well vs the ABs in years, i believe to the point where he has a genuine fear of the ABs. go over his stats since 2010 and I think youll find theyre poor for any international 10. If anything, hes the weak point for this weekend- high veldt or not.

Pieter de Villiers was not a great coach.

Look at his record again.

Every year his results got progressivley worse.

There is only one reason a coach's record gets progressively worse. He doesn't bring anything to the table.

Teams endeavour to improve and build in Between world cups, his side got worse as the years went by.

Go look at the players he "exposed" into international rugby.

I actually looked at these stats the other day, although he brought in around 30 players during his tenure, he barely created experienced players.

The youngsters he selected was all due to public pressure, demanding selection.

Brussow is a lrime example of that.

How do you coach a world cup team, have 18 of those players left after four years and struggle to win 50 percent of your games against the top 8 countries in the world in your last two years?

Surely at some point you will read the game, read what oppositions do better and adapt.

Our game regressed over the four years PDV coached, and he hung onto players as he had no idea how to build a team.

Simple as that.

In terms of player of the year I think its presently between 1/2p and Ben Smith, Etzebeth next best. Ben Smiths scintillating sxv and test form and consistency including 9 test tries so far this year now puts him ahead, the nature of them both team and individual efforts as good as it gets from a 3/4. 1/2p.s enforced lack of involvement in attack until the 3rd lions test goes against him, his defence only mode in many tests not 'as good as a FB can be' in this day and age.

Na, 1/2P deserves it. It's an award for individual performance, nothing more, then Halfpenny has been exemplary all year. One off day with the boot up in Scotland, and he still came away with more points individually than Scotland as a whole could muster. The very nature of the Lions Tour also makes it an incredible achievement to perform to the standards he did. Let's be honest, though Ben Smith has been great and run in a lot of tries, he's also in comfortably the best team in the world. Wales cannot claim such an advantage in Europe, even if they probably are the best international team in the NH.

disagree due to the fact that he didnt play the full scope of the position with either Wales or the two tests v the Lions, who in the third also had a significantly better side than its opposition. But agree due to the fact that he'll likely get it. Its not about the team they play for, its about individual performance, otherwise an AB would never win it.

Every year Jake Whites record also got progressively worse (49-0?)... I would bet my house on us winning the World cup if we had to face Tonga, Argentina, and England in the knock outs, and yet White still nearly lost to Tonga. I could just as easily point to White's disaster at the Lions to prove my point.

Re - 1/2p, I think Etzebeth has done a little bit more, but be has to face three of the four RWC semi-finalists twice, rather than Scotland and Italy... The POTY is a biased pageant!

Read is a prime candidate.

yes read has been awesome recently...he and ben smith who excelled yet again tonight are the best AB bets...

Read should win it, but Halfpenny has the right look, and is very marketable. I can't see any one better to sell protein shakes and AI tickets.

If Halfpenny wins it, do you reckon he'll start receiving death threats?

FA0019,the IRB Player of the year remain a mystery to me BUT your comments on 2009
are in my opinion inaccurate to say the least.The Boks did indeed have a punishing season
BUT since when has that been an acceptable excuse for a Bok or AllBlack side?2009 was the season the Experimental rules bar a couple were dumped by the NH,aerial ping pong,and
the Bulls/Boks Rolling Maul.Heinrich Broussow was flavour of the month All Blacks beaten
3-0 and Lions 2-1.Thats the background now lets get to the meat,in 2009. France met and
beat the weakest AB team seen for many years.Carter,Ali Williams,Boric,Conrad Smith,Mc Caw
all missing.Before the match a French fan on the old 606 site asked me if France had a chance.My reply was "Yes every chance of a win"the following week the AB`s won the return
match.They held the Tournament Trophy usually shared series holder retains trophy but
no France took it on a points difference of 2or 3.The Boks meanwhile were VERY lucky to
win the second test and with it the series.On to the 3Ns Carter missed the first 2 matchs,
Mc Caw back but not Match Fit.No Ali Williams replacement Isaac Ross a rookie and Brad Thorn great grunt lock but no Line out Jumper versus Botha/Matfield no contest.Stephen Donald at 10.First match Broussow all over McCaw,Second Match even,3rd Match Mc Caw
fully match fit Broussow was the invisible man,Carter back the game went to the wire[The only Home AB match v Boks that year].Isaac Ross who had the duties of calling Lineouts
lost about 12 in the first half alone.This match was the turning point Donnelly was picked
to replace Ross and fix the AB`s Lineout which he did.Ross was dropped and couldn't even
get an ITM start.The All Blacks had a great Tour of Europe winning all games without conceding a try except a loss to the Barbarians I think.Including demolishing France 36-3.
and returning to the IRB number 1 spot vacated by the Boks.IF you say the Boks were the
best side in the World up to the end of the 3Ns YES,afterwards NO[in my opinion]Eden
Park2010 proved that.Last year Mc Caw was head and shoulders above anyone didn't
get it but 4 would be excessive even for "Captain Tackles",Read is this years natural
successor.Ben Smith an outside bet some thing also happened in 2009 the Highlanders
Super Rugbys NZ `s bottom franchise beat the Bulls to prove it was no fluke went to Loftus Versfeld in 2010 and repeated the dose.Proving theres no such thing as a sure thing in rugby.

Alan

My reasoning was that no team has done the ABs/SA 3 zip and the Lions 2-1 in a single year ever yet they didn't get world team of the year which went to a team that won the 6N.

Injuries shouldn't matter to records... Most teams these days never have their full strength sides.... Most have at least 2 out injured and NZ&SA should be better then that and be able to replace like for like.

As you said in 2010 NZ showed their true colours.. Well then like NZ & the year before they had No Du Preez, no frans steyn, no JP Pietersen, no Bismarck DP.

Yesterday for instance SA had Van der merwe banned! Frans steyn, JP Pieterson and Johan Goosen out. NZ had carter out and Mccaw half fit.... Doesn't mean you can discount the match because 1 or 2 players were unfit.

Fa1000 you miss my point AB`s 2009 and Aus/SA were both injurie ruined seasons for sides
concerned.As I pointed out when discussing the 2010 6-0 3Ns blowout at the time,maybe
McCaw was honoured for turning[helping to] All Blacks fortunes around. IRB Nominations
for this award get your head scratching most years and fans biases/opinions obviously
differ from the judges.

f steyn was there in 2010, except he was fat and hopeless that year. SA didnt win team of the year in 09? now thats just wrong. maybe halfpenny wont get it then if the Lions tour isnt rated highly. What gets us kiwis is Halfpenny wasnt remotely involved in any win vs the ABs, nor has he ever been, so his being awarded the top player award for performances vs the non no.1 side, surely the sternest test, is odd, not that NH fans will see any logic in that thinking.

Taylorman wrote:f steyn was there in 2010, except he was fat and hopeless that year. SA didnt win team of the year in 09? now thats just wrong. maybe halfpenny wont get it then if the Lions tour isnt rated highly. What gets us kiwis is Halfpenny wasnt remotely involved in any win vs the ABs, nor has he ever been, so his being awarded the top player award for performances vs the non no.1 side, surely the sternest test, is odd, not that NH fans will see any logic in that thinking.

I don't see any logic in it you're correct. rugby is a team game more than any other so someone may have a fantastic game but end up on the losing side easily. Someone like Castrogiovanni was one of the best props around for years and would have made anyones squad but his team didn't win too many.

Taylorman... Think you're wrong on frans steyn... Just checked the team sheets and espn and he didn't play NZ in 2010 when he was first choice, played matches before and after. he was injured mate.

Sort of agree with you on halfpenny but potentially it's a bit harsh.... No team plays every top 12 sides in a calendar year, if they don't play the ABs does that mean they can't be hailed as the best performing player of the year?

Sure at the moment NZ is the benchmark but is victory the only key dominator of a players performance... It's a team game remember, castrogiovanni was the best tight head for years but played in a poor side for instance, because Mike Ross was on a winning side with Ireland against Italy during that period does it mean he's a better player?

Shane Williams in 2008 won the award on the back of his virtuoso displays vs the boks in SA that year.... Didn't win a game against them. Dusautoir won it in 2011 although he got beat in every game he played vs NZ that year.

One thing I would say is that plopping your kicks over is one thing and his rates are not astronomic... It's no better then his peers such as carter, steyn, wilkinson.... Although, his all over play has been good and if he performs well in the AIs he would a decent recipient of the award.. But he's no longer a front runner, he's in the pack now.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:f steyn was there in 2010, except he was fat and hopeless that year. SA didnt win team of the year in 09? now thats just wrong. maybe halfpenny wont get it then if the Lions tour isnt rated highly. What gets us kiwis is Halfpenny wasnt remotely involved in any win vs the ABs, nor has he ever been, so his being awarded the top player award for performances vs the non no.1 side, surely the sternest test, is odd, not that NH fans will see any logic in that thinking.

I don't see any logic in it you're correct. rugby is a team game more than any other so someone may have a fantastic game but end up on the losing side easily. Someone like Castrogiovanni was one of the best props around for years and would have made anyones squad but his team didn't win too many.

no7... Dude that's a little spooky... I too mentioned castrogiovanni in my retort to taylorman, your post wasn't on when I started writing and I didn't see it until I posted! You been eating your jungle oats too this morning???

Ha. He's the obvious answer to that sort of argument isn't he, brilliant player for years.