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Two bolters and one fading star

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Chjw131
munkian
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Comfort
beshocked
Barney McGrew did it
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Post by englandglory4ever Mon 07 Oct 2013, 4:16 pm

Watching the AP matches at the weekend showed two exceptionally good No8s and one that could do better.

Sam Dickinson and Dave Ewers were fantastic for Saints and Exeter . I can't remember being so impressed with no8 play for a long time. Ewers is from Zimbabwe but has been in the UK for several years. I'm guessing he is England qualified? Either way Lancaster needs to get these lads on board with England asap. Don't mess about, get them in the eps. Both these lads are better than Billy V or Ben Morgan imo.

Poor old Ben Morgan couldn't get in to the game and was taken off very early. He is struggling to hold down a starting place at Gloucester so should be looked at very closely by Lancaster. Is his star on the wane? Having said that I would much prefer him at 8 than Tom Wood.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 07 Oct 2013, 4:26 pm

I just havnt watched enough of the AP to make a judgement on Morgan so far this season, but the thing that has always struck me about him isnt the consistent work rate (he can come across as lazy tbh - though was good vs Arg) its the ability to pick and choose the right moments to apply his considerable bulk for maximum effect. I wonder if he would get more 'right moments' behind a decent England pack than he is getting at the moment with Gloucs.

It does seem that fitness is a big issue. Maybe by the 6N that will be sorted.

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Post by Tiger/Chief Mon 07 Oct 2013, 4:33 pm

The thing we all love about Dave Ewers is that because he's replaced Richie Baxter he hasn't been rushed, he's been with the chiefs since the age of 16 and has learnt his trade in the A League Plymouth Albion and the Cornish Pirates!

He's still only 22!! He can play 6 or 8 but he's best with the ball in hand in open play, loves taking the ball up and over the gain line,

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Post by doctor_grey Mon 07 Oct 2013, 4:46 pm

I was absolutely impressed with Dave Ewers the other day. Terrific positional play, solid, strong, and most importantly, smart. I sat in front of my tv wondering where this guy came from, and are there any more like him?

If he is only 22, then I hope he is not rushed at the international level, as it seems he was handled properly by Exeter (no surprise there, eh?) I think I have seen him a couple of times now. Does look real good.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Mon 07 Oct 2013, 4:49 pm

Zimbabwe could actually have a decent team if all their players played for them.

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Post by GloriousEmpire Mon 07 Oct 2013, 7:18 pm

englandglory4ever wrote:Watching the AP matches at the weekend showed two exceptionally good No8s and one that could do better.

Sam Dickinson and Dave Ewers were fantastic for Saints and Exeter . I can't remember being so impressed with no8 play for a long time. Ewers is from Zimbabwe but has been in the UK for several years. I'm guessing he is England qualified? Either way Lancaster needs to get these lads on board with England asap. Don't mess about, get them in the eps. Both these lads are better than Billy V or Ben Morgan imo.

Poor old Ben Morgan couldn't get in to the game and was taken off very early. He is struggling to hold down a starting place at Gloucester so should be looked at very closely by Lancaster. Is his star on the wane? Having said that I would much prefer him at 8 than Tom Wood.
Sigh. You can't remember being so impressed with no 8 play? You missed the two best eights in the world playing on Saturday then?

And as for this "has he been here long enough to be England qualified?" That's just sad, sad, sad, sad, and sad. Grow your own for goodness sake.

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Post by niwatts Mon 07 Oct 2013, 9:24 pm

From what I know of Ewers, he's been here since he was 14 (9 years) when his family had to flee Zimbabwe and come back to Ivybridge, Devon to live with his grandparents.  He went to Ivybridge College which happens to have one of the best rugby programmes in the country, is in the AASE scheme and partnered with Exeter Chiefs.  He's very settled in and loves the SW, but also proud of his Zambabwe affiliations.  I could see him being happy to represent either country, though I don't think he would want to represent Zimbabwe under the current political regime given the nature of his departure.

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Post by Driver Mon 07 Oct 2013, 11:27 pm

I don't think that off the back of a few poor games you could drop Morgan. He's our best option at 8 and Lancaster knows Morgan might pile the pounds on a bit quicker and is more than likely playing catch up with his fitness at the minute.

Dave Ewers is a talented kid but is probs quite far down the pecking order , he'll need a big 12 months if he wants to even crack the EPS training squad.
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Post by lostinwales Tue 08 Oct 2013, 12:02 am

Driver wrote:I don't think that off the back of a few poor games you could drop Morgan. He's our best option at 8 and Lancaster knows Morgan might pile the pounds on a bit quicker and is more than likely playing catch up with his fitness at the minute.

Dave Ewers is a talented kid but is probs quite far down the pecking order , he'll need a big 12 months if he wants to even crack the EPS training squad.
You can drop Morgan if he isnt going to help us going forward, just like you can bring him back in when he has his mojo back and can last more than 45 minutes. He can be an absolutely terrific player but that doesnt make him undropable

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Post by markb Tue 08 Oct 2013, 2:38 am

Morgan shouldn't be "playing catch up with his fitness" at the beginning of the season.  Professional sportsmen who represent the country should be using the preseason to get themselves in the best possible shape, not letting it all slide.  Vunipola by comparison, who also has weight & conditioning issues he needs to stay on top off, looks fitter this season and has been playing the full 80.

If Morgan continues in his current form and fitness, playing him anyway won't see results on the pitch and sends out the wrong message, taking us back to the old days with complacent or underperforming players retaining the shirt whatever and frustrated wider squad members.

Too early to draft Dickinson & Ewers into the EPS yet, but if their form continues through the Heineken Cup for their clubs they should at least be brought into the Saxons.

On current form from the EPS players Vunipola should be starting for England, with the loss of the shirt hopefully kickstarting Morgan back to is best.

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Post by Barney McGrew did it Tue 08 Oct 2013, 9:44 am

Sorry, lost patience with fatty Morgan - too overated because he’s put in a few short classy spells, and because he’s in a position of weakness for England at the moment, and frankly we’re too desperate for him to do well. After not far off 2 years as an England player he still has to have a bit of a lie down after every run. SL should use him for what he does well - a last 20 minute impact player. He can spend the other 60 minutes eating all the pies and having a kip on the bench. What we really need is competition for Vunipola, who also seems to like a pie or three. Can’t help but feel we missed a trick with not pursuing Haskell as a no 8 option, at least in the short term.
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Post by englandglory4ever Tue 08 Oct 2013, 9:45 am

I agree they are both down the order but croft is out long term and Morgan has a lot to do to show he is ready for test rugby. Dickinson and Ewers are very talented players that stand out in the AP league. They should be recognized now and brought in to the Saxons immediately. I'd drop the donkey slow Crane and injured Croft to make space.

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Post by beshocked Tue 08 Oct 2013, 11:14 am

Let's not forget that Billy Vunipola is only 20 years old and Ben Morgan is hardly old at 24 years old.

I think Morgan has done well at international level but as already mentioned by everyone else his fitness is a huge problem. Even if he was a bench player - imagine if a backrower has to come off injured in the 1st 10 minutes.

International rugby is no place for someone who can't last 80 minutes at club level at the moment.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 08 Oct 2013, 11:38 am

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Sorry, lost patience with fatty Morgan - too overated because he’s put in a few short classy spells, and because he’s in a position of weakness for England at the moment, and frankly we’re too desperate for him to do well. After not far off 2 years as an England player he still has to have a bit of a lie down after every run. SL should use him for what he does well - a last 20 minute impact player. He can spend the other 60 minutes eating all the pies and having a kip on the bench. What we really need is competition for Vunipola, who also seems to like a pie or three. Can’t help but feel we missed a trick with not pursuing Haskell as a no 8 option, at least in the short term.
I don't think he is overrated at all. The sort of 'Class' he provides is much needed and in short supply. He has a great deal of power, a surprising turn of pace, great hands and a good rugby brain. He is probably the best 'attacking' no.8 when on form in the NH but he is a long way from being the most balanced and his work rate isnt great. Get some more aspects of his game right and he will be some player. Playing him does require compromises but its worth it when he is on form.

It is also stupid to ignore the competition.

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Post by Guest Tue 08 Oct 2013, 11:38 am

GloriousEmpire wrote:
englandglory4ever wrote:Watching the AP matches at the weekend showed two exceptionally good No8s and one that could do better.

Sam Dickinson and Dave Ewers were fantastic for Saints and Exeter . I can't remember being so impressed with no8 play for a long time. Ewers is from Zimbabwe but has been in the UK for several years. I'm guessing he is England qualified? Either way Lancaster needs to get these lads on board with England asap. Don't mess about, get them in the eps. Both these lads are better than Billy V or Ben Morgan imo.

Poor old Ben Morgan couldn't get in to the game and was taken off very early. He is struggling to hold down a starting place at Gloucester so should be looked at very closely by Lancaster. Is his star on the wane? Having said that I would much prefer him at 8 than Tom Wood.
Sigh. You can't remember being so impressed with no 8 play? You missed the two best eights in the world playing on Saturday then?

And as for this "has he been here long enough to be England qualified?" That's just sad, sad, sad, sad, and sad. Grow your own for goodness sake.
The 2 best? Faletau didn't play on Saturday did he? Headscratch 

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Post by Comfort Tue 08 Oct 2013, 11:57 am

Sam Dickinson has been a revelation this season for the saints. A REVELATION!!!

It'd be him I would advocate for the England set-up right now above all other number 8s in the AP.

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Post by beshocked Tue 08 Oct 2013, 12:02 pm

Comfort you are right he's been decent in a handful of games but I don't think it's enough to leapfrog Morgan and Billy. Certainly enough to get in the Saxons instead of Crane for example but we need to see if he can sustain that level.

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Post by Comfort Tue 08 Oct 2013, 12:08 pm

decent in a handful of games? that's a bit of an undersell surely?

And you're definitely right, it'd be sensible to move up the ranks over time, but I think he looks like a real all round good number 8, something England have lacked since Lawrence....

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Post by beshocked Tue 08 Oct 2013, 1:04 pm

Comfort how exactly do you disagree with my comment? It's been 5 games. Hardly enough time to call Dickinson the coming messiah in my opinion.

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Post by dummy_half Tue 08 Oct 2013, 1:35 pm

Comfort wrote:decent in a handful of games? that's a bit of an undersell surely?

And you're definitely right, it'd be sensible to move up the ranks over time, but I think he looks like a real all round good number 8, something England have lacked since Lawrence....
.

With Morgan and Billy V already there and the Steady Eddie that is Jordan Crane also around the squad, there is certainly no need to throw someone in at the deep end (unlike a couple of seasons ago), so we can take a bit of tie and see which of these guys fulfils their potential best.

Would be nice to have a few options with differing playing styles - at th moment I see Morgan and Vunipola as fairly similar in being very good attacking ball carriers, but not so hot at the breakdown and so require us to pick two hard-working flankers (Robshaw and Wood are ideal) to balance things up. A better all-rounder at 8 would allow us to either go for a more 'thoroughbred' fetcher or another ball carrier on one flank.

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Post by munkian Tue 08 Oct 2013, 1:46 pm

Morgan was never this unfit at the Scarlets, what've you done to him ? Doh

North better not get stodgy slumming it in the Jeff Run 
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Post by lostinwales Tue 08 Oct 2013, 1:50 pm

munkian wrote:Morgan was never this unfit at the Scarlets, what've you done to him ? Doh

North better not get stodgy slumming it in the Jeff Run 
Better quality pies? Whistle 

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Post by Comfort Tue 08 Oct 2013, 2:34 pm

beshocked i dont see where i disagreed, just think saying "decent in a handful of games" is underselling his performances so far. He's been far above decent imo, I even agreed with moving him up the Saxons and into the EPS should he show consistency over a season as you suggested - surely underlining my idea to drop him in the deep end is a bit hellfire admittedly, but a gamble I think he'd react too (not based on anything other than a hunch).

Now calm ya cottons! Very Happy 

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Post by Chjw131 Tue 08 Oct 2013, 2:43 pm

dummy_half wrote:
Comfort wrote:decent in a handful of games? that's a bit of an undersell surely?

And you're definitely right, it'd be sensible to move up the ranks over time, but I think he looks like a real all round good number 8, something England have lacked since Lawrence....
.

With Morgan and Billy V already there and the Steady Eddie that is Jordan Crane also around the squad, there is certainly no need to throw someone in at the deep end (unlike a couple of seasons ago), so we can take a bit of tie and see which of these guys fulfils their potential best.

Would be nice to have a few options with differing playing styles - at th moment I see Morgan and Vunipola as fairly similar in being very good attacking ball carriers, but not so hot at the breakdown and so require us to pick two hard-working flankers (Robshaw and Wood are ideal) to balance things up. A better all-rounder at 8 would allow us to either go for a more 'thoroughbred' fetcher or another ball carrier on one flank.
I think both Billy V and Morgan have work to do on their breakdown and Morgan on his impact in the tackle. Finding an all-rounder at 8 though is like a needle in a haystack. Further, we don't really have the option of anyone at 6 who's a destructive ball carrier and high level blindside. The only player I can think of in that mould is Carl Fearns but he needs a full season free of injury.

All those claiming that Morgan is either unfit or poor are simply wrong. If one actually looks at his contribution to what was a dire pack performance by Gloucester against Chiefs, it was pretty sound. He made a couple of turnovers, defended well, contributed and defended mauls well and made some relatively decent carries. In a pack on the back foot it was a sound if unspectacular contribution.

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Post by Driver Tue 08 Oct 2013, 3:12 pm

The point i was trying to make is that Morgan is a slow starter in Seasons , needs a few games to get motoring.

He's never had a bad game for England yet.
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Post by Geordie Tue 08 Oct 2013, 3:14 pm

So we have two bull dozing No.8's exactly what we are looking for who have barely really  been looked at, at international level, and they are being dumped already...typical 606!!!

Morgan is class...he just needs a good four weeks of fitness beasting. Thats easily achievable.
Likewise Billy is raw...but the carrier we are looking for.

What they lack else where...is where the two top class flankers Robshaw and Wood come in. They cover the lineout, breakdown etc..and their lack of carrying is balanced by the 8.

For those saying an alround 8 would allow an actual fetcher...2 things. 1) Please show me an actual fetcher that is pulling up trees??!! 2) Robshaw has been one of the best 7's in the game over the last few seasons...and his stats match that.

Jeez...we're so keen to find the New Kid on the Block...that we are blinded by what we already have!

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Post by beshocked Tue 08 Oct 2013, 3:27 pm

Geordiefalcon fitness beasting? Who do you expect to do that?

chjw131 we will have to disagree. I didn't see much from Morgan vs Chiefs.

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Post by BamBam Tue 08 Oct 2013, 3:27 pm

One thing that does interest me is the prospect of Ewers as a blindside, we don't really have a big ball carrying, hard tackling blindside with a strong physical edge, other than Haskell on top form. Would be a nice contrast to Wood


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Post by Geordie Tue 08 Oct 2013, 3:35 pm

Beshocked..yeah get him running up and down some hills, doing some sprint work...it appears to me that his pre season workout has been exceptionally badly planned...

Even if they are working on the process of making him hit form later in the year...he should be fitter than he is now...

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Post by dummy_half Tue 08 Oct 2013, 3:56 pm

GF

Regarding the possibility of playing a fetcher, I was more meaning it as a hypothetical back row balance rather than advocating a specific player (Kvesic would be the closest we have, but as you say so far he hasn't really shone this season).

I'm a big fan of Robshaw, because he has a huge workrate (there are times I'm convinced there are more than one of him on the pitch) and is solid across all facets of the game - doesn't perhaps shine at any one aspect in the way that Crofts or Morgan does, but a great team needs its hard workers as well as its flair players.

I think the starting back row of Wood, Robshaw and Morgan is a very good and well balanced group. Potentially one of the best 3 in the world. The question is what and who could move it from top 3 to top 1? (accepting England have only once in my memory had clearly the best back row in the world with Hill, Back and Dayglo.)

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 08 Oct 2013, 3:58 pm

If Fraser hits the ground running he stands half a chance. He was excellent back end of last year and would surely have been given the chance at 7 ahead of Kvesic in Argentina.

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Post by Geordie Tue 08 Oct 2013, 4:09 pm

Hypothetically...Do we need a fetcher at the moment? Lancs has picked a team where everyone is strong on the ground...even Parling our lineout guy gets stuck in.

I personally believe Wood and Robshaw are underated. Im glad you recognise that potentially that 3 "could " be one of the best around...i thinks its certainly capable.

The so called "holy trinity" had many games together...how many have this 3 had...id vouch not many.

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Post by Chjw131 Tue 08 Oct 2013, 4:36 pm

BamBam wrote:One thing that does interest me is the prospect of Ewers as a blindside, we don't really have a big ball carrying, hard tackling blindside with a strong physical edge, other than Haskell on top form. Would be a nice contrast to Wood

Yep that's got potential to add a different dimension. I touted Ewers as one to watch out for last season and so far he's living up to his potential. He is a very young chap though who's got a long way to go before being considered for an EPS spot, that's if he'd even accept it.

The potential for him at 6 though would give some very abrasive BR options. A BR of 6. D Ewers 7. C Fearns 8. B Vunipola would rival even South Africa's physicality, though may be a little limited in the line-out without some lightwieght locks!

In reality as GF has said our current best BR is probably 6. T Wood 7. C Robshaw 8. B Morgan 19. B Vunipola. They have played i think less than five games together and could form a really top line BR.

Without another strong carrier though we do need to add carriers elsewhere in the pack. Both in the front and second rows.

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Post by Geordie Tue 08 Oct 2013, 4:54 pm

CHjw...Do you think we'll see the best of Fearns now? Im begginging to think not sadly...could have been a cracker, just seems to be permanently crocked..

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Post by Bathman_in_London Tue 08 Oct 2013, 5:03 pm

Fearns should be left well alone to try and get a full season under his belt. He has been very unlucky with injuries. But if he could stay fit, personally I like the idea of having a variety of options at 6, say Fearns, Wood and Croft, all who bring something different to the table.

Likewise I would like to see the emergence of a 'different' number 8, ie more athletic than Morgan/Billy.
It did seem as if Haskell would fill that gap, but something has gone awry there.

After watching the SA vs NZ game, it did make me think that while there is a place for pure power, to be really successful England will have to be able to play at pace and look to dominate the ruck area. Some of the skills shown by Read/Louw etc sadly looked a little beyond some of our boys.

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Post by doctor_grey Tue 08 Oct 2013, 6:07 pm

Something is clearly not right with roly-poly Morgan. I really thought he was coming into his own then got hurt. When he played early this year, he looked real good, and was continuing to improve. Shame.

But we can't argue with what we see. I would keep him (unfortunately) out of the England set up until he returns to form.

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