My Ireland 15 for autumn internationals

Time for a post on Irelands team for the upcoming intenationals for what will be a very testing start for Schmidt. I'm going conservative for the first game focusing on win v Samoa ahead of developing players and experimenting.

Healy, Best, Ross, Ryan, POC, SOB, Heaslip, O'Mahoney, Murray, Sexton, Bowe, Darcy, BOd, Earls, Kearney.

Dont think Zebo's form warrants a start. I am also thinking Luke Marshall (while i'm a big fan) might be a better option v australia as with darcy/bod a safer defensive partnership. Second row partner besde POC is where i'm struggling with. McCarthy i've been a fan, o'callaghan i think is past his best, toner still too untested and not sure if touhy poc would work.

Front row, back row, half backs and back three are fairly close imho to starting 15.

I would probably cry if I saw D'Arcy and BOD together for another year.. and honestly I think Marshall is as solid as you will ever need at 12. Probably more solid defensively than D'Arcy would be at this point.

McCarthy has looked very unfit for Leinster, and I don't see any reason why Ryan should be dropped. Have you forgotten him?

Healy
Best - Cronin not far behind however
Ross - although hopefully one of Archer or Moore will get their chance soon
Ryan
POC
POM
SOB
Heaslip
Murray
Sexton - but with Madigan to get some big game experience
Earls
Marshall - but I think Olding may have more potential
BOD
Bowe
Kearney

Oh I don't think I could take D'Arcy-BOD again. D'Arcy is a backup at best now, I'm not sure I'd even have him in the squad. We might as well try to get Marshall and Olding bedded in whilst they still have an experienced 13 beside them.

Reasoning for Darcy is familarity with BOD and Schmidt of course! I do like Marshall but against a very strong samoa back row and midfield i can see darcy getting the nod.

Sorry thought Ryan was injured for some reason. Glad to see him there so will backtrack on that one.

There will be much stronger opposition back rows than what Samoa has. I think we would be regressing hugely if we simply selected D'Arcy and BOD for another year to be safe. Plus, Marshall is the most physical option we have had at 12 for a long time. He will thrive in a physical game like this, especially if it opens up and he gets a chance to run with ball in hand.

thelosty - For what it's worth that would be my choice for the AI's for you guys as well. I just hope that the crucial players can stay fit as it's really frustrating as a rugby fan to see sides continually diluted by injury.

1.Healy 2.Best 3.Ross 4.Ryan 5.POC 6.Ferris 7.SOB 8.Heaslip
9.Murray 10.Sexton 11.Zebo 12.Marshall 13.BOD 14.Bowe 15.Kearney

At full strength I'd back the above team to challenge most sides around the world but with the prolonged and frequent spells so many of the above players have spent on the sidelines it can't happen. Throw in guys like Fitzgerald who's career has stalled partially due to injuries and Flannery who retired early due to injury - it really doesn't reflect well on the density of matches in the calendar.

Also I would imagine Henderson should be the next in line at second row, after POC and Ryan. Plus he a versatile option for the bench.

Backrow: Hendo,SOB,POM .... or SOB,Henry/TOD,POM

Heaslip still good but I think POM has moved into a different league.

Really hope at least one of TOD or Henry can step up internationally.

surely we can say that Moore, Archer, Fitzpatrick, and possibly others, are better than Ross.

Whats the story with Henderson - why isn't he starting for Ulster?

gleesonisgod wrote:surely we can say that Moore, Archer, Fitzpatrick, and possibly others, are better than Ross.

hmm if Ireland can try something different against Samoa it would be front row. I've been a fan of Fitpatrick but I cant comment on Moore's nor Archer's form.

Sin é wrote:Whats the story with Henderson - why isn't he starting for Ulster?

There's no story, he's just learning his trade and rotating in and out of the first team. I wouldn't say he isn't getting his game, he plays every week either off the bench or from the start.

Sin é wrote:Whats the story with Henderson - why isn't he starting for Ulster?

2 reasons come to mind. Muller and a very competitive ulster back row....

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also I would imagine Henderson should be the next in line at second row, after POC and Ryan.  Plus he a versatile option for the bench.

Dan Tuohy, overloooked a lot. He really is staking his claim and he should probably add to his caps.

D'Arcy should be nowhere near the team

Healy, Best, Ross, POC, Ryan, POM, Heaslip, SOB, Murray, Sexton, Earls Marshall, BOD, Bowe, Keaney (I am assuming Zebo is out)

Bench: Cronin, Cronin, Lutton, Henderson, Henry, Marshall, Jackson, Gilroy

Basically a solid team with a bit of experimenting on the bench
Diferent bench for Australia - Archer, Kilcoyne, Tuohy, Boss

geoff999rugby wrote:D'Arcy should be nowhere near the team

I know people want change to freshen things up but he played v well v Ospreys and showed he's capable of a good autumn series. My conservative hat would go with Darcy first then unleash Marshall v Australia.

That makes no sense.

littlejohn wrote:

Sin é wrote:Whats the story with Henderson - why isn't he starting for Ulster?

2 reasons come to mind. Muller and a very competitive ulster back row....

Surely he should be playing with Muller at this stage. Tuohy isn't a world beater. And while I can understand starting Wilson against the Tigers, I would have thought he would have started more games this season in general for Ulster.

Notch wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also I would imagine Henderson should be the next in line at second row, after POC and Ryan.  Plus he a versatile option for the bench.

Dan Tuohy, overloooked a lot. He really is staking his claim and he should probably add to his caps.

He plays hot and cold though a lot. His outburst on twitter about missing out on the world cup wouldn't have done him any favours either.

I'd like to see a bit of experimentation vs Samoa. They're a good side and a good test for less experienced players without quite being the deep end of a test against a top 3 side or a 6 nations match. I'd like to see Ross left out for one of the young pretenders and Marshall play 12 (though I wouldn't call that an experiment exactly).

Some might disagree, but if Schmidt has someone in mind as the heir to the 13 jersey I'd advocate they get 50-60 mins as well

I don't think Samoa are a good team for "experimentation". They beat Wales away last year and completely humiliated Scotland and Italy in the summer. If we give these guys any less than 100% we could easily see a defeat.

Although Darcy has been good, he definately should not be starting. Also Fitzpatrick should start abead of Ross.

I think we've got to play full strength teams for all 3 games. We need Schmidt to get as much time with his probable team before the 6 nations and world cup.

Engine#4 wrote:
Some might disagree, but if Schmidt has someone in mind as the heir to the 13 jersey I'd advocate they get 50-60 mins as well

He has but he doesn't become IQ till next year - one of the reasons, I suspect Schmidt asked BOD to not retire for a year.
HE does not believe anyone is currently good to take his place.

In fact I go further I suspect he wants BOD to bed in the new 12 - probably Marshall - this year before he himself retires and is then replaced by one of Marshall's Ulster team mates next year, and hence someone familiar with playing alongside him.

It's exactly because they're a good side and capable of beating us that I think some of the newer generation should have to front up to them. What is an ideal test to bed in newer players? Italy or Scotland at Landsdowne? Argentina in the Summer? We finished joint last in the Six Nations, have a new coach and 2 years till the next World Cup.  The players who are earmarked for the WC need to start experiencing tough test rugby now. Target the NZ test by all means but in my opinion there's no point in being overly conservative against Samoa.

On the subject of BOD part of me wants to see him get gametime with Marshall as they're most likely the first choice midfield for the rest of this season. Another part of me would like to minimise the chances of him being decapitated by a Samoan and cut him loose against the Aussies and All Blacks. Especially the All Blacks...

Sin é wrote:

littlejohn wrote:

Sin é wrote:Whats the story with Henderson - why isn't he starting for Ulster?

2 reasons come to mind. Muller and a very competitive ulster back row....

Surely he should be playing with Muller at this stage. Tuohy isn't a world beater. And while I can understand starting Wilson against the Tigers, I would have thought he would have started more games this season in general for Ulster.

Not really

He was not allowed to play in the first game as ordered by Dublin
Came back as a sub in the second
Started games 3 and 4
Picked up an injury in game 4 and that is why he was on the bench for game 5

So to be honest Leicester was the first game where he was not selected where you might expect him to be.
He is only 21 and will need to be game managed to get the best out of him

Any one up for moving tommy bowe to 13 for the game against Samoa? Worth a shot!! Always had a feeling he would be a good option there! See... alternative thinking;) 

Well, no Tuohy is a very accomplished lock who should be in the Ireland 23. He's very underrated. I think it says a lot about us if we want Henderson to leapfrog the guy who is keeping him out of the Ulster team based on the fact Hendo is young and promising. Tuohy is having a good season, he deserves to add to his caps.

Wilson has a better work rate- Hendo isn't as accomplished at the breakdown as our other sixes which is why Anscombe sees him as a lock. Which is why its strange we're having this conversation- what is his best position? We're still working it out at Ulster and we want to fasttrack him into the Ireland team? He's developing nicely, just be patient.

He'll nail down a starting place in due time, it's not a concern. He'll be first choice for Ulster in a year or so I think. He's doing brilliantly with Ulster- I think Henderson should be in and around the Ireland squad, he'll gain a massive amount from it and I think he has the potential to be a key player for Ulster and Ireland down the line but seriously- whilst Henderson is a good player, the guys who started ahead of him on Friday shouldn't be overlooked. They are delivering too.

But all that said I have two words for you regarding Henderson and Ireland; impact sub.

Also I can see Henderson starting in Montpellier- either because Muller is injured or because Williams is dropped to the bench and Wilson moves to 8.

I don't think that should happen, we need two good breakdown flankers and a ball carrier and I'd rather have the ball carrier at 8. Henderson and Williams won't be apart of the same back row- biggest selection error of the season last year to put those two in together against Saracens.

Agree with you notch, think Henderson should get International game time in the Autumn Internationals. Whats the story with Gilroy any chance he will be fit for the Autumn?

Notch wrote:That makes no sense.

My simple logic is win v samoa and win ugly if need be. Feels like i'm on my own defending Darcy here...

What's interesting to note is lack of debate in other positions - is that pointing to a worrying lack of depth?

D'Arcy at 12 is starting to remind me of some of Englands most regressive selections. Jamie Noon anyone? Thats how bad putting D'Arcy in at 12 is at this stage.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I don't think Samoa are a good team for "experimentation". They beat Wales away last year and completely humiliated Scotland and Italy in the summer. If we give these guys any less than 100% we could  easily see a defeat.

Although Darcy has been good, he definately should not be starting. Also Fitzpatrick should start abead of Ross.

1.Mulipola with Taulafo as back up
2.Avei
3.C Johnston with J Johnston as back up
4.Paulo or Tekori
5.Leo
6.Fa'asavalu or Treviranus
7.Lam
8.Tuifua

9.Fotuali'i with Sua as back up
10.T Pisi

11.Lemi
12.Leota
13.G Pisi
14.Leiua
15.Williams

That's what I'd expect looking at their announced squad for the Autumn. Certainly no push over side to experiment against! A shame that Mapusua and Alesana Tuilagi aren't in the squad as they're playing in Japan. Tuilagi especially was excellent against Scotland in the summer.

Tommy Bowe will be nowhere near 13 - that idea is dead in the water.

He will get zero game time there for Ulster.
Cave, Payne, Olding or Marshall will all play there in preference

Also Paul Marshall has signed a three year contract which according to this link is with IRFU and Ulster. Probably a typo but if not VERY interesting. Is he considered the new number 2 when Reddan and Boss sail off into their retirement sunset

Regarding Experimenting - agreed a tough side which is why I suggest experimentation is confined to the bench not the starting 15

geoff998rugby wrote:Tommy Bowe will be nowhere near 13 - that idea is dead in the water.

He will get zero game time there for Ulster.
Cave, Payne, Olding or Marshall will all play there in preference

Also Paul Marshall has signed a three year contract which according to this link is with IRFU and Ulster. Probably a typo but if not VERY interesting. Is he considered the new number 2 when Reddan and Boss sail off into their retirement sunset

I always expected Earls to take the mantle at 13 but he is still not proven he can do that job. Someone mentioned there is an upcoming guy in Ulster? not yet IQ - who is that?

Payne is being groomed for the Irish 13 jersey.

In fact I reckon their are 4 players at Ulster more likely to pull on the 13 shirt for Ireland than Bowe - Payne, Cave, Olding, Marshall

As I say Tommy will see out his days as a wing

geoff998rugby wrote:Payne is being groomed for the Irish 13 jersey.

In fact I reckon their are 4 players at Ulster more likely to pull on the 13 shirt for Ireland than Bowe - Payne, Cave, Olding, Marshall

As I say Tommy will see out his days as a wing

Didnt realise Payne would be soon Irish eligible - we talking about 2014? He certainly would help fill a hole. Agreed on Bowe. Best utilised as a wing, doing the odd Ashton and running off sexton when the time suits.

I'd say Ashton does a Bowe than vice versa.....

1. Healy 2 Best (C) 3 Fitzpatrick
4. Ryan 5 O'Connell
6 O'Mahoney 8 Heaslip 7 O'Brien
9 Murray 10 Sexton
11 Bowe 12 Marshall 13 O'Driscoll 14 Trimble
15 Kearney

16. Kilcoyne 17. Cronin 18. Ross 19. Toner 20. Henderson 21. Marshall 22. Jackson 23. McFadden

McFadden and Toner should be nowhere near the team

Good club players but but we have much better talent than them.

Nonsense Toner is pushing Ryan and O'Connell for a starting berth. In fact it could be argued that Toner, Touhy and McCarthy should all be in the 23 ahead of the Munster duo. Toner is the form lock.

I'm not a big McFadden fan - he's very limited,small and poor in defence - but what he gives is 100% effort, great kick chase, good finisher close to the line, looks for the ball. Schmidt rates him highly so I'd expect him to be thereabouts.

Given injuries to Zebo and Gilroy and with Trimble yet to hit his stride we are looking quite weak in the back 3.

littlejohn wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Tommy Bowe will be nowhere near 13 - that idea is dead in the water.

He will get zero game time there for Ulster.
Cave, Payne, Olding or Marshall will all play there in preference

Also Paul Marshall has signed a three year contract which according to this link is with IRFU and Ulster. Probably a typo but if not VERY interesting. Is he considered the new number 2 when Reddan and Boss sail off into their retirement sunset

I always expected Earls to take the mantle at 13 but he is still not proven he can do that job. Someone mentioned there is an upcoming guy in Ulster? not yet IQ - who is that?

Going by interviews after the last training squad got together I think it looks like Schmidt is working on turning Henshaw into a 13,he was quoted s saying he was swapping in and out with BoD that whole week.

geoff998rugby wrote:Regarding Experimenting - agreed a tough side which is why I suggest experimentation is confined to the bench not the starting 15

While I'd normally agree the fact is we have 3 tough games in 3 weeks and we can't play the same 15 every time.That said Marshall would be better able to play all 3 than BoD,I'd also like to see some rotation in the back row and at prop.

king_carlos wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I don't think Samoa are a good team for "experimentation". They beat Wales away last year and completely humiliated Scotland and Italy in the summer. If we give these guys any less than 100% we could  easily see a defeat.

Although Darcy has been good, he definately should not be starting. Also Fitzpatrick should start abead of Ross.

1.Mulipola with Taulafo as back up
2.Avei
3.C Johnston with J Johnston as back up
4.Paulo or Tekori
5.Leo
6.Fa'asavalu or Treviranus
7.Lam
8.Tuifua

9.Fotuali'i with Sua as back up
10.T Pisi

11.Lemi
12.Leota
13.G Pisi
14.Leiua
15.Williams

That's what I'd expect looking at their announced squad for the Autumn. Certainly no push over side to experiment against! A shame that Mapusua and Alesana Tuilagi aren't in the squad as they're playing in Japan. Tuilagi especially was excellent against Scotland in the summer.

For a nation with no Professional league, it really is impressive that they can put together a team like that and still be missing top players such as Tuilagi.

rodders wrote:Nonsense Toner is pushing Ryan and O'Connell for a starting berth. In fact it could be argued that Toner, Touhy and McCarthy should all be in the 23 ahead of the Munster duo. Toner is the form lock.

I'm not a big McFadden fan - he's very limited,small and poor in defence - but what he gives is 100% effort, great kick chase, good finisher close to the line, looks for the ball. Schmidt rates him highly so I'd expect him to be thereabouts.

Given injuries to Zebo and Gilroy and with Trimble yet to hit his stride we are looking quite weak in the back 3.  

Earls and Fitz ahead of McFadden, and arguably D.Kearns. I haven't Conway yet this season but end of last season he was better than McFadden.

king_carlos wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I don't think Samoa are a good team for "experimentation". They beat Wales away last year and completely humiliated Scotland and Italy in the summer. If we give these guys any less than 100% we could  easily see a defeat.

Although Darcy has been good, he definately should not be starting. Also Fitzpatrick should start abead of Ross.

1.Mulipola with Taulafo as back up
2.Avei
3.C Johnston with J Johnston as back up
4.Paulo or Tekori
5.Leo
6.Fa'asavalu or Treviranus
7.Lam
8.Tuifua

9.Fotuali'i with Sua as back up
10.T Pisi

11.Lemi
12.Leota
13.G Pisi
14.Leiua
15.Williams

That's what I'd expect looking at their announced squad for the Autumn. Certainly no push over side to experiment against! A shame that Mapusua and Alesana Tuilagi aren't in the squad as they're playing in Japan. Tuilagi especially was excellent against Scotland in the summer.

I think Mo will still be injured

ChequeredJersey wrote:
I think Mo will still be injured

How Farrah-way is he from recovering?

 

rodders wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:
I think Mo will still be injured

How Farrah-way is he from recovering?

 

We are told 6 weeks, but then all of our injured players seem to be struggling to get back

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Regarding Experimenting - agreed a tough side which is why I suggest experimentation is confined to the bench not the starting 15

While I'd normally agree the fact is we have 3 tough games in 3 weeks and we can't play the same 15 every time.That said Marshall would be better able to play all 3 than BoD,I'd also like to see some rotation in the back row and at prop.

Schmidt has very limited opprotunities to build a squad. He will have a 31 man squad for the RWC and should be rotating those 31 players now over these three games to get them playing time together. So what if Ireland get beaten by Samoa? Wales lost against Samoa but still won the 6N - which is more important?

The only truly important game this Autumn is the one v the All Blacks - that is the benchmark and since Ireland have never beaten them, to do so would be massive. The Samoa and Australia games should be used to try combinations without flogging the same XV players for the three matches, especially in the pack. The crescendo would then be the shot at breaking the hoodoo with players both fit and picked on form.

littlejohn wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Payne is being groomed for the Irish 13 jersey.

In fact I reckon their are 4 players at Ulster more likely to pull on the 13 shirt for Ireland than Bowe - Payne, Cave, Olding, Marshall

As I say Tommy will see out his days as a wing

Didnt realise Payne would be soon Irish eligible - we talking about 2014? He certainly would help fill a hole. Agreed on Bowe. Best utilised as a wing, doing the odd Ashton and running off sexton when the time suits.

Yep we are talking after the summer tours in 2014 for Payne so he will be eligable this time next year