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Strength In Depth

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munkian
beshocked
Bathman_in_London
ChequeredJersey
lostinwales
MotelMoneyMurderMadness
ScarletSpiderman
LeinsterFan4life
LordDowlais
Geordie
profitius
Tiger/Chief
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Post by Tiger/Chief Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:37 pm

Are welsh and Irish posters worried about the change in qualification criteria for European tournaments impacting on the fitness of key players when it comes to the autumn internationals and Six nations??

England have lost both first choice centres and still had a debate raging over who would fill the gaps with 5 genuine possibilitys that makes 7 top centres playing week in week out in the prem who all apart from Burrell have International experience ( Saxons or full team)

Wales Ireland and Scotland just don't have that kind of back up! We all saw what happened to Wales with Injuries last season losing to Samoa Japan etc whilst Emglands B team went to Argentina and won easily

I'm English but concede a fully fit and firing Wales Is scary proposition and edges England at the min! If the welsh and Irish regions have to play there star players week in week out to guarantee Europe will there national teams suffer as consequence!?!?

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Post by profitius Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:51 pm

Don't forget that England has a much bigger rugby playing population than Ireland, Wales and Scotland put together.

I don't like this idea that Irelands players are wrapped in cotton wool all season and only let play in internationals and the HEC. Irelands injury list last weekend was POC, Henderson, Donn Ryan, BOD, SOB, Ross, Strauss, Healy, Ferris, Zebo, Earls, Jordi Murphy and O'Donnell.

We're not doing too badly in depth these days. Players like Marmion, Olding, Hanrahan, Kilcoyne, Trimble, Cave and Moore were fit and left out of Joe Schmidts AI squad. Thats not to mention those playing outside of Ireland with Sexton being the only outsider. A few years back Ireland were struggling for depth.
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Post by Geordie Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:57 pm

England have lost both first choice centres and still had a debate raging over who would fill the gaps with 5 genuine possibilitys that makes 7 top centres playing week in week out in the prem who all apart from Burrell have International experience ( Saxons or full team)

Who? Tomkins, Trinder, Twelvetrees, Eastmond, Burrell?
If thats them...then yes playing top club level, but strength in depth...well we have NO idea if they are international standard or not...they could be woeful.

Isnt strength in depth having a choice of players who are tried and tested and international level?

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Post by LordDowlais Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:12 pm

It's easily done for England if they are picking players from whatever country they feel like, half of the England elite squad is not even proper British, never mind English, and now I here people on here going on about how Ewers(spelling) should be England's next no.8, why, he is South African not English.

Run 

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Post by Tiger/Chief Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:14 pm

Whilst not being vastly experienced Joseph, Twelvetrees who got called up to the Lions Eastmond have all played full international rugby for England,

Eastmond excelled in Argentina and whilst Burrell and Trinder are not capped the continue to play high level prem and Heineken cup rugby.

I'd be interested to know why Wales don't pick Byrne or Hook anymore and if they've got other genuine options coming through??

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Post by Tiger/Chief Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:15 pm

He's as South African as Toby Falatau....

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Post by LordDowlais Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:20 pm

Tiger/Chief wrote:He's as South African as Toby Falatau....
 
Yeah but I am not the one shooting my gob off about how good my countries strength in depth is am I ? Also Toby has lived in the Welsh Valley's for about twenty years, so he qualifies.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:32 pm

That was an Argetinian development team. Half team weren't even professionals! If England didn't win that it would have been a huge embarrasement.

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Post by Tiger/Chief Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:40 pm

Clearly someone's got a chip on their shoulder, don't think I've been shooting my mouth of at all, it's only a opinion! Jesus!

And for the record.... Dave Ewers was born in Zimbabwe not SOUTH AFRICA!, that was my point about Falatau being as South African as Ewers, one of his parents and grand parents are English he's lived in England from the age of 13!

He's eligible regardless of the residency rule.


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Post by ScarletSpiderman Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:41 pm

To be honest I don't see how the qualification changes will make much difference. Last season, with a week or so to go there were 6 or 7 sides competing for the top four stops. ANd then there was a huge gap. Now I can't realistically see much difference in the future. The only teams that can be accused of 'resting players' are the Irish provinces, and to be fair they tend to give the 'filler' in the league a pasting with their first team rested (just look at the dicking that Leinster A gave the Scarlets at the start of the season).

Also if somehow the qualification rules do make the league all of a sudden a very hard environment to play in, then the likes of youngsters like Jack Dixon, Hallam Amos, Owen Williams, Cory Allen and Co. would have already proven themselves ready to step up to international rugby by being regulars in the league. So theoretically the strength in depth would be greater.
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Post by ScarletSpiderman Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:44 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:England have lost both first choice centres and still had a debate raging over who would fill the gaps with 5 genuine possibilitys that makes 7 top centres playing week in week out in the prem who all apart from Burrell have International experience ( Saxons or full team)

Who? Tomkins, Trinder, Twelvetrees, Eastmond, Burrell?
Owen Farrel?
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Post by MotelMoneyMurderMadness Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:47 pm

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/domestic-club-rugby-union/english-rugby-premiership/11366/dave-ewers-follows-david-pocock-in-beating-pain-of-exile/

Article on Ewers. Fled the Mugabe regime aged 14. Came to England and started a new life.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:50 pm

I did not know Ewers was that young comming over, then yes of course he should be eligable for England.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:50 pm

Tiger/Chief wrote:I'd be interested to know why Wales don't pick Byrne or Hook anymore and if they've got other genuine options coming through??
Hook is a rugby version of a swiss army knife, very useful to have. However, if I want a screw driver I will use a screw driver, and if I want a bottle openner I will use a bottle openner, etc. Hook is not an out an out fly half, centre or fullback. At best he is a useful bench option. At fly half we have two good proven international fly halves in Biggar and Priestland, and we have two good prospects in Owen Williams and Rhys Patchell too. At fullback we have Lions man of the tour, Leigh Halfpenny, and also have the very good attacking option of Liam Williams. Then we also have Rhys Priestland who can play as well as Hook at fullback. In the centre there is the Lions pairing of Davies and Roberts, but also Scott Williams (who IMO wouldhave been called up ont he LIons tour instead of 36, if not injured), and the another good attacking option in Ashley Beck. So Hook is not good enough to oust any of these lads from their proper positions. Which means he is not up to the job.

Lee Byrne is getting on now, and will not make the RWC, also there are questions about his off feild antics when with Wales in the past. Also arguably behind Halfpenny and Liam Williams anyway.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:52 pm

Zimbabwe could have a serious backrow.
6. Denton
7. Pocock
8. Ewers.

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Post by Geordie Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:55 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Zimbabwe could have a serious backrow.
6. Denton
7. Pocock
8. Ewers.
Add Beast Mttariwara the making of a decent pack comes through...

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Post by LordDowlais Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:57 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Zimbabwe could have a serious backrow.
6. Denton
7. Pocock
8. Ewers.
Add Beast Mttariwara the making of a decent pack comes through...
And that one who plays for Sarries(cannot spell his name)laughing 

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Post by MotelMoneyMurderMadness Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:02 am

Add Brian Mujati? Is he from Zimbabwe?

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Post by lostinwales Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:06 am

A Zimbabwean exiles barbarians team (fleshed out with some other Southern African Region types) might be a lot of fun

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Post by ChequeredJersey Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:06 am

I think Wales have pretty decent back up in most positions- ignoring those who started in the last game of the 6N

15- Liam Williams/Byrne
14- Eli Walker
13- Ashley Beck
12- Scott Williams
11- Harry Robinson
10- Rhys Priestland/Rhys Patchell
9- Dwayne Peel/Rhodri Williams
8- here is a huge hole
7-
6- Josh Navidi

Harder in the pack actually...
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Post by Geordie Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:18 am

Yeah Mujati aswell

1 Beast
2
3 Mujati
4
5
6 Denton
7 Pocock
8 Ewers

11 Ngwenya

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Post by LordDowlais Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:21 am

Shalk Brits, that's him isn't it ? The one with the curly black hair that plays for the Sarries.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:22 am

Chavhanga and Mordt in the backs are Zimbabwean, and Barritt too
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Post by LordDowlais Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:23 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah Mujati aswell

1 Beast
2
3 Mujati
4
5
6 Denton
7 Pocock
8 Ewers

11 Ngwenya
I thought Ngwenya was Kenyan.chin 

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Post by ChequeredJersey Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:24 am

Brits is a Saffer I think
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Post by lostinwales Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:25 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:Chavhanga and Mordt in the backs are Zimbabwean, and Barritt too
Barritt born Durban. I don't think there is a zimbabwean link

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Post by ChequeredJersey Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:26 am

Barritt qualifies though his parents though
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Post by ChequeredJersey Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:26 am

They are Rhodesian
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Post by profitius Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:32 am

Despite its population England has some problems..

- A huge population for the land size means large parts of young lads have no fields to play in.
- In winter its cold, dark and wet and not really good for outdoors activities.
- Theres loads of indoor entertainment for young people to do.
- Soccer is a religion in England and gets 99% of all media coverage. Unlike SA and NZ, Rugby is only a minority sport.


Last edited by profitius on Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by ScarletSpiderman Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:33 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:I think Wales have pretty decent back up in most positions- ignoring those who started in the last game of the 6N
15 - Liam Williams
14 - Eli Walker
13 - Ashley Beck
12 - Scott Williams
11 - Harry Robinson
10 - Rhys Priestland
9 - Rhodri Williams (Lloyd Williams / Tavis Knoyle / Richie Rees / etc etc too many scrum halves)

8 - Andres Petorious / Rob McCusker (ok, neither are setting the world alight really)
7- Josh Navidi
6 - Aaron Shingler
5 - Luke Charteris
4 - Andrew Coombs / Jake Ball
3 - Samson Lee
2 - Ken Owens
1 - Paul James

Thanks not too bad all things considered
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Post by MotelMoneyMurderMadness Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:44 am

According to wiki George Gregan qualifies for Zimbabwe so stick him at 9.

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Post by Geordie Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:45 am

LordDowlais wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah Mujati aswell

1 Beast
2
3 Mujati
4
5
6 Denton
7 Pocock
8 Ewers

11 Ngwenya
I thought Ngwenya was Kenyan.chin 
Aparently born and went to school in Harare Zimbabwe,

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Post by ChequeredJersey Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:47 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah Mujati aswell

1 Beast
2
3 Mujati
4
5
6 Denton
7 Pocock
8 Ewers
9
10 Mordt
11 Ngwenya
12 Barritt
13
14Chavhanga
15
Not bad. Add in other players for an African all stars excluding SA and you get J Burger and Shaw too

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Post by Bathman_in_London Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:49 am

lostinwales wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:Chavhanga and Mordt in the backs are Zimbabwean, and Barritt too
Barritt born Durban. I don't think there is a zimbabwean link
His parents lived in Rhodesia before he was born.

Also on the Zim list could be Chavanga on the wing, Thom Evans, plus older players like Pieter Dixon at hooker, Bobby Skinstad, Adrian Garvey and Teichman.

I did a while ago do a thread on a potential Zim team, from memory the gaps were at 2nd row (there is a guy at Worcester I think), but I am sure that there will be a number of Currie cup level players who would qualify.


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Post by Geordie Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:49 am

Gregan is Zambian...

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Post by Bathman_in_London Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:50 am

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote:According to wiki George Gregan qualifies for Zimbabwe so stick him at 9.
He has Zambian heritage.

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Post by MotelMoneyMurderMadness Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:01 am

I thought his mum is from Zimbabwe. I will check. Apologies if I gave any duff selection info.

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Post by LordDowlais Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:04 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:Brits is a Saffer I think
He played for Zimbabwe against us in the WC, unless I am thinking of a different player.Headscratch 

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Post by MotelMoneyMurderMadness Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:04 am

Wiki states he was born in Zambia but his Mum is from Zimbabwe and his Dad is Australian.

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Post by LordDowlais Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:06 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah Mujati aswell

1 Beast
2
3 Mujati
4
5
6 Denton
7 Pocock
8 Ewers

11 Ngwenya
I thought Ngwenya was Kenyan.chin 
Aparently born and went to school in Harare Zimbabwe,
Oh well I stand corrected, you learn something new everyday. Trouble is, something has been lost.Doh 

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Post by ChequeredJersey Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:08 am

Anyway, they've all chosen other countries except Ewers

My favourite 15 thingy to do is my "lesser rugby nations" (patronising I know) 15-

1- Ion
2-
3- Zirakashvili
4- Cudmore
5- Erik Lund
6- Bardy
7- J Burger
8- Ewers
9- Tanaka
10-
11- Artemyev
12-
13- Wyles
14- Sep Visser
15- Rowan Varty

Add in Ngwenya, Manoa, Gorgodze.
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Post by Geordie Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:15 am

Zimbabwe could be a real strong team in rugby then...

But there are lots of other African countries really taking to rugby...Kenya the obvious one is 7's but many with the 15's.


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Post by Bathman_in_London Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:22 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:Anyway, they've all chosen other countries except Ewers

My favourite 15 thingy to do is my "lesser rugby nations" (patronising I know) 15-

1- Ion
2-
3- Zirakashvili
4- Cudmore
5- Erik Lund
6- Bardy
7- J Burger
8- Ewers
9- Tanaka
10-
11- Artemyev
12-
13- Wyles
14- Sep Visser
15- Rowan Varty

Add in Ngwenya, Manoa, Gorgodze.
No Scottish players in that team CJ...?! Wink 

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Post by beshocked Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:10 am

LordDowlais wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Zimbabwe could have a serious backrow.
6. Denton
7. Pocock
8. Ewers.
Add Beast Mttariwara the making of a decent pack comes through...
And that one who plays for Sarries(cannot spell his name)laughing 
I presume you are referring to Jacques Burger. He is Namibian.

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Post by munkian Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:24 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:I think Wales have pretty decent back up in most positions- ignoring those who started in the last game of the 6N
15 - Liam Williams
14 - Eli Walker
13 - Ashley Beck
12 - Scott Williams
11 - Harry Robinson
10 - Rhys Priestland
9 - Rhodri Williams (Lloyd Williams / Tavis Knoyle / Richie Rees / etc etc too many scrum halves)

8 - Andres Petorious / Rob McCusker (ok, neither are setting the world alight really)
7- Josh Navidi
6 - Aaron Shingler
5 - Luke Charteris
4 - Andrew Coombs / Jake Ball
3 - Samson Lee
2 - Ken Owens
1 - Paul James

Thanks not too bad all things considered
One eyed Scarlet misses out all Dragons players that smashed his team shocker laughing  Wink 
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Post by munkian Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:26 am

beshocked wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Zimbabwe could have a serious backrow.
6. Denton
7. Pocock
8. Ewers.
Add Beast Mttariwara the making of a decent pack comes through...
And that one who plays for Sarries(cannot spell his name)laughing 
I presume you are referring to Jacques Burger. He is Namibian.
Whats a Nubian ? #ChasingAmy
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Post by Cardiff Dave Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:00 am

beshocked wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Zimbabwe could have a serious backrow.
6. Denton
7. Pocock
8. Ewers.
Add Beast Mttariwara the making of a decent pack comes through...
And that one who plays for Sarries(cannot spell his name)laughing 
I presume you are referring to Jacques Burger. He is Namibian.
A Swansea City fan in a bap?

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Post by LordDowlais Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:09 am

beshocked wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Zimbabwe could have a serious backrow.
6. Denton
7. Pocock
8. Ewers.
Add Beast Mttariwara the making of a decent pack comes through...
And that one who plays for Sarries(cannot spell his name)laughing 
I presume you are referring to Jacques Burger. He is Namibian.
YES,YES,YES,YES, thats him, shat and I got Namibia and Zimbabwe mixed up unall, fook, time to go home methinks.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:10 am

Stan Wright at prop from the Cook Islands another one for my side
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:19 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:Anyway, they've all chosen other countries except Ewers

My favourite 15 thingy to do is my "lesser rugby nations" (patronising I know) 15-

1- Ion
2-
3- Zirakashvili
4- Cudmore
5- Erik Lund
6- Bardy
7- J Burger
8- Ewers
9- Tanaka
10-
11- Artemyev
12-
13- Wyles
14- Sep Visser
15- Rowan Varty

Add in Ngwenya, Manoa, Gorgodze.
You could have the American hooker Billar at 2 (played for Bath) and Biarritz have a Morrocan center, Boruto I think?

Then you have like of the 2nd row from Cameron who plays for Montpellier. Tussac the German TH who played for Toulon and is now with Leeds and Ortega from Uruguay.

LeinsterFan4life

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