England Argentina match / build up

Time to draw a line in the sand in the Halloween Wallaby thread.

A scratchy but nonetheless pleasing win to England. Argentina (not SA sorry oakey) loom as England's next performance and you'd think that England would be pleased with the scrum. Vunipola though is going to have to watch out his bind is square as the Puma scrum is very solid and they have more experience with the new laws.

The English defence is another pleasing aspect, keeping Australia scoreless in the second half. Conditions will play a part but I think Argentina will be more convincing with wet conditions. England must look to come home strong in the final quarter where the Pumas ran out of steam in the RC. Their backline looked sketchy but this is the moment to look for space and attack out wide as the venom and efficiency of the Pumas' defence has typically fallen away in this period.

With Australia down and NZ the following week the temptation is to save your strength for the following week. But England must go from strength to strength. You can't look to perform in isolated matches. It's not so much consistency but a linear line of progression that you're looking for. England must build on their win and look to improve in areas they let themselves down. This principally to me was the ball presented to the backs and the space afforded them by the quality of the possession. This was what was missing largely on the weekend.

Argentina had a winless RC and their last match was a trouncing. Typically after a bad performance they have come back stronger so England need to be prepared for a spirited Puma performance that must not be taken lightly.

I've been drawn attention to an article on the team who have arrived in London. If you want to practise your Spanish, the link is: http://www.ole.com.ar/rugby/hourcade-leguizamon-capitan-los_pumas_0_1023497890.html

Daniel Hourcade has taken over as Head Coach amid rumours that the previous coach - Santiago Phelan - did not enjoy the support of the senior player Pato Albacete and his devoted followers Eusebio Guiñazú y Julio Farías who threatened to leave the team if the coach didn't and effectively pushed Phelan off the gangplank.

So Houcarde has made a wise decision with his choice of captain given that Argentina are without their star players Lobbe and Hernandez. Rather than reward Albacete with his mini rebellion that forced him into the job, he has chosen Leguizamón as captain. Martín Gaitán broke social media protocol and tweeted that one of the first requirements as a captain was to be a good person, implying that Albacete was not.

Houcarde has chosen somebody that will not be a source of conflict and can bring the team together. Understandably, the media have leapt onto these changes and have claimed that there is a big rift within the Puma camp and that all is not well with the players and a new coach is not the best preparation to go into a game against England.

Such an environment can work both ways though. Quade Cooper spoke of a toxic environment but his team came together and kept their number two ranking under Deans. Sometimes adversity can galvanise a team and make them come together more and want to fight for each other. Sometimes it means the wheels come apart all too easily and the team self destructs.

These are not ideal circumstances for Argentina but maybe the heat they've been under and a new coach will forge stronger bonds rather than weaker ones. It'll be interesting to see on the weekend how the players work together as a team. It seems in Leguizamón they have a leader who is well respected and liked. What is unclear is how players like Albacete will react under his leadership and how Hourcade strikes up a working relationship from the outset.

really looking forwards to the forwards battle

What is it with other countries fans making all the England threads??  

Looking forward to this game. Regardless of the score if we can just stop it being an ugly, dull, chaotic kick fest then it'll be an improvement on previous games!

Same again from the pack.

Up the workrate of the backs.

As a resident of Madrid consider me an interested observer in Argentina yappy. A few Argentinian friends would like to create some banter but their English prevents them from having a conversation beyond hello, I call myself Pedro y this is Juan y ... Nos vamos a dar ustedes una paliza!

Sanchez is one to watch out for. He is limited as a runner but deadly accurate with the boot. If it turns into penalty exchanges, they'll be well catered for.

My Argentinian friends were pretty distraught after that last match. After the narrow loss in Perth they felt Oz was there for the taking at home. Their big loss still stings and they're keen for their team to restore their pride. They come into this game under the radar and largely written off and that suits them I feel.

I did hear today that Lancaster is going to make 1/2 changes for this week's game.

Changes i would like to see if Lutha Burrell in the centre with Tonkins along side. and Christian Wade on one wing with Yarde on the other.

The pack? I dont think the pack was that bad. But if Corbs is fit then he should start in my opinion.

Looks like Twelvetrees has kept his place:

"I'm still to decide, they haven't trained yet. There is definitely scope to make changes. Luther Burrell and Kyle Eastmond are obvious inside centre options and Henry Trinder an outside centre option. But Billy's done pretty well for us and deserves another chance I think."

Right decision I think. Twelvetrees needs to become a bit more assertive in the back line, and looks slightly star-struck out there, but in terms of individual performance that was his first bad game for England.

I'd like to see Wade in for Ashton. Now's got to be the time to give him a shot in a major fixture. Also, I don't want Parling to just come straight back in. He's a really good player of course, but Launchbury, Lawes and Attwood all have the physical capability to keep him out if they're given that backing

I don't mind no changes, just no Parking back in!

I've been drawn attention to an article on the team who have arrived in London. If you want to practise your Spanish, the link is: http://www.ole.com.ar/rugby/hourcade-leguizamon-capitan-los_pumas_0_1023497890.html

Daniel Hourcade has taken over as Head Coach amid rumours that the previous coach - Santiago Phelan - did not enjoy the support of the senior player Pato Albacete and his devoted followers Eusebio Guiñazú y Julio Farías who threatened to leave the team if the coach didn't and effectively pushed Phelan off the gangplank.

So Houcarde has made a wise decision with his choice of captain given that Argentina are without their star players Lobbe and Hernandez. Rather than reward Albacete with his mini rebellion that forced him into the job, he has chosen Leguizamón as captain. Martín Gaitán broke social media protocol and tweeted that one of the first requirements as a captain was to be a good person, implying that Albacete was not.

Houcarde has chosen somebody that will not be a source of conflict and can bring the team together. Understandably, the media have leapt onto these changes and have claimed that there is a big rift within the Puma camp and that all is not well with the players and a new coach is not the best preparation to go into a game against England.

Such an environment can work both ways though. Quade Cooper spoke of a toxic environment but his team came together and kept their number two ranking under Deans. Sometimes adversity can galvanise a team and make them come together more and want to fight for each other. Sometimes it means the wheels come apart all too easily and the team self destructs.

These are not ideal circumstances for Argentina but maybe the heat they've been under and a new coach will forge stronger bonds rather than weaker ones. It'll be interesting to see on the weekend how the players work together as a team. It seems in Leguizamón they have a leader who is well respected and liked. What is unclear is how players like Albacete will react under his leadership and how Hourcade strikes up a working relationship from the outset.

yappysnap wrote:What is it with other countries fans making all the England threads??

Everyone pretends to hate us, but deep down they love us really and why wouldn't they we invented the great game and have the finest fans/stadium in the world at HQ.

I wasn't impressed with Dickson or Youngs when he came on at scrumhalf. Does Dickson deserve another start?

Or perhaps Scrumpy some people are interested in Argentina and their one representative - Argie Fan - vanished like a  so it'd be nice to hear things from their side. Like their new captain and coach.

Really looking forward to how the Vunipola's, Youngs and Marler goes here!

Also this seems the game to allow 36 to use ball and bring in players around him, and allow Brown more range to attack in the line.

Ther first rusty game is out of the way, we started poor and got stronger, especially as the bench was used.

For the first time in ages I'd say let the same 15 go again, Dickson wasn't great but who was? He needs gametime if he's to improve.

Kia/butterfingers - you've both referred to Mako Vunipola but do you think he will actually start? Good as Vunipola and Marler are Corbisiero is reported to be available again and he is a notch above.

We either need to change the half backs, or at the very least change the game plan they are playing too. It is completely pointless having what on paper appears to be a decent backline, if you are simply going to refuse to pass them the ball. Twelvetrees got the ball 4 times and Tompkins 5 - that's not good enough, and it's not like they'd snuck of for a few beers they just weren't being used.

yappysnap wrote:What is it with other countries fans making all the England threads??  

Ever since Hersh was asked to resign. He used to lead the 606 charge on threads covering upcoming England games... sorely missed.

England win for sure . in fact i say by a big score

Big wrote:We either need to change the half backs, or at the very least change the game plan they are playing too.  

Do you not think it was a case of the weather was poor and didn't encourage Barbarian rugby - even the mightly Aussie backs struggled - and we could never get far enough ahead to play with freedom? I think under Farrell (Andy) there is a slightly safety first approach, in playing the kicking percentage game and trying to get penalties on the board. The other side then need to play catch up rugby and you hit them on turnover ball.

Both Dickson and Farrell have played some decent rugby this year with their clubs, so I think just changing a couple of players won't be the answer. Winning against Australia was the make or break game of the series. Win that and we should go into the New Zealand game 2 - 0 with nothing to lose by having a real go at them. End the series 2 -1 losing to New Zealand and most people would be happy.

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:England win for sure . in fact i say by a big score

Only if we have Clancy playing for us like last week...  

Big depends on what Lancaster wants from this game. Maybe he wants to test Vunipola against a very powerful scrum mind unit and then being Corbs on and assess how he is for NZ.

Maybe he prefers to use Corbs and see how match fit he is and give him a really good workout for NZ.

No reason why both can't feature but much depends on what game SL wants the next weekend and how the game goes this weekend.

As for starting a thread I think the last one had run its course and it was time to move on. I do have a British passport. I'm as British as Yorkshire pudding.  

BBC Weather forecast

"Saturday remaining unsettled, with potentially some very wet and windy conditions arriving".

This plays right into the hands of Las Pumas.

We will do well to just win this game. That is hugely frustrating because we'll have very limited opportunity to develop our game and our players, probably then get dry weather for a rampant All Blacks side hell bent on revenge.

Triangulation wrote:
BBC Weather forecast

"Saturday remaining unsettled, with potentially some very wet and windy conditions arriving".

This plays right into the hands of Las Pumas.

Los Pumas. You're thinking of Las Ketchup.

I think English player know a thing or two about playing in the rain too. 

Rain is a leveler though. Argentina were spanked in the dry of SA and their game in Rosario. The set piece is Argentina's foundation and though England are equally good in this area they lose the edge they have out wide. Perth is an example of tricky conditions that suit the Pumas' strengths.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Rain is a leveler though. Argentina were spanked in the dry of SA and their game in Rosario. The set piece is Argentina's foundation and though England are equally good in this area they lose the edge they have out wide. Perth is an example of tricky conditions that suit the Pumas' strengths.

Precisely my point. Thank you


Also how do we develop our game when were stuck with 11 or 12 man rubgy in pooopy conditions?

We cant that's how.

Reminds me of the last Italy v England 6N game, played out in Alpine snow conditions last winter which suited Italy well, but made a total mess of the game overall.

Big wrote:Kia/butterfingers - you've both referred to Mako Vunipola but do you think he will actually start?  Good as Vunipola and Marler are Corbisiero is reported to be available again and he is a notch above.

We either need to change the half backs, or at the very least change the game plan they are playing too.  It is completely pointless having what on paper appears to be a decent backline, if you are simply going to refuse to pass them the ball.  Twelvetrees got the ball 4 times and Tompkins 5 - that's not good enough, and it's not like they'd snuck of for a few beers they just weren't being used.

I thought Corbs was out until next week? Either way I'd start Mako, his time with the lions highlighted his strengths and weaknesses for the world to see, he will be involved with a world cup attempt, and therefore needs to work on his scrum and tight work, who best to do that agianst than the Argies?

We know what Corbs is made of, and is first choice, I'd probably use him off the bench to give him some time looking at the NZ game to start.

nlpnlp wrote:Do you not think it was a case of the weather was poor and didn't encourage Barbarian rugby - even the mightly Aussie backs struggled - and we could never get far enough ahead to play with freedom?  I think under Farrell (Andy) there is a slightly safety first approach, in playing the kicking percentage game and trying to get penalties on the board.  The other side then need to play catch up rugby and you hit them on turnover ball.

Both Dickson and Farrell have played some decent rugby this year with their clubs, so I think just changing a couple of players won't be the answer.  Winning against Australia was the make or break game of the series.  Win that and we should go into the New Zealand game 2 - 0 with nothing to lose by having a real go at them.  End the series 2 -1 losing to New Zealand and most people would be happy.

I take your point on the weather, but so far this year England have been disappointing ball in hand even when the weather has suited it. If we were coming into that match on the back of great performances in the 6 nations I probably would have thought "ah well, rubbish weather, new combinations, etc". But because I'm desperate to see some evidence of them developing a decent attacking game I think I'm that bit more aware and disappointed that it didn't happen.

Triangulation wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Rain is a leveler though. Argentina were spanked in the dry of SA and their game in Rosario. The set piece is Argentina's foundation and though England are equally good in this area they lose the edge they have out wide. Perth is an example of tricky conditions that suit the Pumas' strengths.

Precisely my point. Thank you


Also how do we develop our game when were stuck with 11 or 12 man rubgy in pooopy conditions?

We cant that's how.

By being brave and passing and running even though its raining. Don't give up before it hasn't worked.