Should the WRU buy the Dragons?

With all this European sage on going and a announcement expected from RRW today it is clear that in order for Unions to remain in control of these situations, they need to secure ownership of professional rugby.

In Wales our benefactors do not put any substantial investments into their regional outfits (with maybe the exception being the Blues and even then its limited).  Now given the massive contributions the WRU already put into each region annually, I would question not only how these benefactors are under contributing but also how that WRU money is being spent.  Price Water House already stated that the Finances at all 4 regions after its investigation was being poorly managed.  

My major concern regarding player drain in Wales is that keeping our best players may not always be cost effective so I can understand retaining them is not always achievable.  That said I'm disgusted by the amount of foreigners (26 in total, both capped and project players) the regions have brought in.  Truth is most of these project players will never be good enough to represent wales and the only reason they bring them in is so they have no international commitments.  The aim of the regions should be to prepare players for test level rugby because that would benefit both the national and regional causes as standards would rise.  

I constantly see arguments between the welsh benefactors and the WRU and it does make me wonder what entitles non contributing benefactors to even own a regional team.  Surely if that was the case the WRU could save itself major headaches and just buy them back.  The already own 50% of the Dragons so why not secure the remaining profits.  By centralising the regional processes it would save a ton of admin money as you wouldn't need to hire as many staff to run the organisations.  It would stop all this in house arguing, centralize cash pools so regions stop bidding against their own welsh talent pool which will drive down average welsh non international salaries & control if and when any signings are made with a unified long term plan for them.  I appreciate this would be different if we had benefactors like in England who are pumping 5-10 million per season into their teams but given ours are making minimal contributions, why should they control these regions?

A short answer NO
They should sell their 50% of the Dragons back to the Dragons what they PAID for them.
Zilch or Nothing.

No, they should just admit that the Turks are the official WRU team and continue to bail them out

Would the WRU be prepared to put in as much to the regions as the IRFU/SRU do their teams?

In order to do so it would prob result in reduced funding to the Welsh perm, which wouldn't go down well with clubs.

NZ recently looked at semi privatising some super 15 teams, maybe this is a model the WRU could look at.

Or possibly have the teams at least 51% owned by fans (like the german football club model), would it bring fans closer to the teams if they are the majority shareholders?

It appears a high water mark has been reached and change is now needed, but which is best for Welsh rugby.

Welshmushroom, apart from in the first season of regional rugby, the Dragons - 50% owned by the WRU - have been the fourth-placed Welsh region, in other words, worse than three regions who are 0% owned by the WRU. The words ball and chain spring to mind.

Why on earth would they want to do that?

Has anyone from the WRU been to Newport!  

So you think Martin Hazell doesn't put money into the Dragons? - not a clue.
So you think the money the WRU "put into" the regions is not earned by said regions through tv rights etc - not a clue
At least find out some facts before you post - mushroom indeed -kept in the dark & fed on BS

dragon999 wrote: At least find out some facts before you post - mushroom indeed -kept in the dark & fed on BS

 very good

Agree 100% with the OP. What we have managed to contrive in Wales is a dogs breakfast of a system. Neither one thing nor another. Full control by WRU like Ireland, OZ, NZ and SA is the way forward.

However you can expect a load of abuse from Dragons fans especially because Newport is the centre of the universe.

doctornickolas wrote:Agree 100% with the OP. What we have managed to contrive in Wales is a dogs breakfast of a system. Neither one thing nor another. Full control by WRU like Ireland, OZ, NZ and SA is the way forward.

However you can expect a load of abuse from Dragons fans especially because Newport is the centre of the universe.

Something like a black hole then or am I only half right?

But why are Dragons singled out ? We have recently spent within our means and dont play in ridiculously oversized stadium and are contributing more and more to the national teams

& are in profit

Dragons fans do seam to be against WRU having full ownership, whilst the other regional fans seam to think it could be a good thing?

Both sides have a point full ownership didn't work out to well for the Celtic Warriors, but other countries union owned teams to seam to do well.

Personally I think it may take a solution unique to each region to sort it out.

The fan owned model would be an interesting one.

munkian wrote:But why are Dragons singled out ? We have recently spent within our means and dont play in ridiculously oversized stadium and are contributing more and more to the national teams

The infamous "50%" bit I guess.
For me they deserve the "most improved region award" following their recent mostly astute recruitment and swanky new stand. Not as swanky as our plastic pitch though.

munkian wrote:But why are Dragons singled out ? We have recently spent within our means and dont play in ridiculously oversized stadium and are contributing more and more to the national teams

Firstly I'd like to point out that I am a Dragons fan.

It's not a question of singling the Dragons out. The WRU would have to spend less on buying the remaining 50% shares of the Dragons compared to the 100% they would have to pay for the other regions. At least this way they then could contract players they don't want to see Wales to avoid things like the North incident.

What really gets to me is the fact that the WRU set up the Regions in 2003 and didn't have any money because of Glanmors Monolith (Millenium Stadium) and the benefactors bailed them out to what I've been told recently to the tune of £40 MILLION, they were handed 50% of the Dragons shares by the Oasis manager (Russell) when he realised he had to put some MONEY IN, and now the Dodger wants total control.
Well for a start he should pay back the £40 MILLION lets see where we go then.

dragon999 wrote:So you think Martin Hazell doesn't put money into the Dragons? - not a clue.
So you think the money the WRU "put into" the regions is not earned by said regions through tv rights etc - not a clue
         At least find out some facts before you post - mushroom indeed -kept in the dark & fed on BS

Firstly I do know what I am talking about. Martin Hazell does not contribute with finances to the Dragons. In a recent statement he already said the Dragons only spend what they generate from WRU funding, gates & commercial revenues and are turning a small profit. My understanding is Brown still owns a load of the open shares and has been desperate to sell his shares as he stopped putting money into the region a long time ago.

Regarding the second part of your comment. No its not earned by the regions. The TV rights belong to the WRU to sell. Yes the regions are the product but the ownership rights of the income still belong to the WRU regardless. They then distribute it how they see fit. The regions can't insist on this money. If the WRU for instance choose not to pay them because they don't sign the participation agreement the regions still can't sign their own TV deals without leaving Rugby Union.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

munkian wrote:But why are Dragons singled out ? We have recently spent within our means and dont play in ridiculously oversized stadium and are contributing more and more to the national teams

The infamous "50%" bit I guess.
For me they deserve the "most improved region award" following their recent mostly astute recruitment and swanky new stand. Not as swanky as our plastic pitch though.

Thats it though, its not swanky, its not arrogantly big, its a good size that we can relaistically fill if we continue to improve.

I hope the Scarlets appreciate the irony of the 'west is best' stand being empty

Welshmushroom wrote:

dragon999 wrote:So you think Martin Hazell doesn't put money into the Dragons? - not a clue.
So you think the money the WRU "put into" the regions is not earned by said regions through tv rights etc - not a clue
         At least find out some facts before you post - mushroom indeed -kept in the dark & fed on BS

Firstly I do know what I am talking about.  Martin Hazell does not contribute with finances to the Dragons.  In a recent statement he already said the Dragons only spend what they generate from WRU funding, gates & commercial revenues and are turning a small profit.  My understanding is Brown still owns a load of the open shares and has been desperate to sell his shares as he stopped putting money into the region a long time ago.

Regarding the second part of your comment.  No its not earned by the regions.  The TV rights belong to the WRU to sell.  Yes the regions are the product but the ownership rights of the income still belong to the WRU regardless.  They then distribute it how they see fit.  The regions can't insist on this money.  If the WRU for instance choose not to pay them because they don't sign the participation agreement the regions still can't sign their own TV deals without leaving Rugby Union.

WM, as an Osprey supporter I KNOW that Martyn Hazell doesn't put finances into the team as this is explained by the RRW cap of £3.5 MILLION, yet he does put money in for the finance of the NEW STAND so Dragon is CORRECT.
As for the TV MONEY, I live in a valley just north of Bridgend, there are 2 teams in this valley and the next valley has another 2 teams, one of which I played for, 3 of these 4 teams have had substantial grants or loans in the past 5 years, 2 of these teams are still paying players to play for them, 1 team is in Div 3, the same in 4,5 and6, they should not get 1 penny of the money from Regional TV exposure IMO.

So you think Mr Brown didn't put money in to the purchase/building of the Bisley stand? - you haven't got a clue

Welshmushroom wrote:

munkian wrote:But why are Dragons singled out ? We have recently spent within our means and dont play in ridiculously oversized stadium and are contributing more and more to the national teams

Firstly I'd like to point out that I am a Dragons fan.  

It's not a question of singling the Dragons out.  The WRU would have to spend less on buying the remaining 50% shares of the Dragons compared to the 100% they would have to pay for the other regions.  At least this way they then could contract players they don't want to see Wales to avoid things like the North incident.

I don't believe ewe.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

munkian wrote:But why are Dragons singled out ? We have recently spent within our means and dont play in ridiculously oversized stadium and are contributing more and more to the national teams

Firstly I'd like to point out that I am a Dragons fan.  

It's not a question of singling the Dragons out.  The WRU would have to spend less on buying the remaining 50% shares of the Dragons compared to the 100% they would have to pay for the other regions.  At least this way they then could contract players they don't want to see Wales to avoid things like the North incident.

I don't believe ewe.

Neither do I

munkian wrote:No, they should just admit that the Turks are the official WRU team and continue to bail them out

   

Those days are long gone now, and to be honest went pre-regionalism. They just plunder us internationally, and try to steal our players to give to other regions now! Good job I don't easily go off people with all of your poop deflection being aimed the Scarlets way  

Anyhow, to the question in hand. I am far from wanting to rebel from the union etc, but I think the WRU are currently the major reason for the regions struggling, especially at the Dragons. I am one of those that think the Union should give the regions more financial support as well as publicity (help promote them at International games, with the WRU newsletter email etc), but seeing as they own 50% of the Dragons they should be matching any funding that Hazel and Co. put in. The Dragons should not be the poor relatives or the regions, they should be the financial powerhouse, and the reason they are not is because the WRU are too lazy and too tight fisted to do it.

As others have said the WRU seem to be more of a noose for the Dragons than a help. Didn't that Celtic Manor block (Matthews?) want to come into the Dragons, but then noticed the WRU issues and pulled out? Or is that one of those rumour mill things, or just something that happened in a dream of mine?

It's a good job you're not over sensitive SS...

IMO the WRU are not going to do a lot until the debt has been repaid. There are clear indications that this is the main priority of the WRU and roger the dodger. Once this has been paid off I suspect the WRU will move for total control over the regional game and they will have the capital to do it.

Impossible Standards wrote:It's a good job you're not over sensitive SS...

IMO the WRU are not going to do a lot until the debt has been repaid. There are clear indications that this is the main priority of the WRU and roger the dodger. Once this has been paid off I suspect the WRU will move for total control over the regional game and they will have the capital to do it.

To be honest if/when they do, they should start off with ensuring that the Dragons get their aid first, not that they need it more than any other region, but because they are owed it. Then once they have got the house in order at Dave they can then turn their attention to the others.

I think we all know who'll get the WRU's attention first.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I think we all know who'll get the WRU's attention first.

Yeah, that bleeding RGC!  

Not sure where to put this question, so here sounds as good place as any. Has anyone heard any rumours down at Dave that Leigh Byrne may be heading your way in the summer? A pretty reliable rumour source (that used to post all the regional close season moves) has mentioned it else where. Just wondering if any Dragons fans had heard it.

This is doing the rounds on a few forums. The first I heard of it was today but I thought he had signed an extension at CA? To be honest I would rather we invest in some forwards than full back. We have Dan Evans who has been excellent for us and also young Amos will eventually be competing there once we have more cover on the wings.

It's not a signing we need to make. Front row and possibly still second row is where we need to spend money.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Not sure where to put this question, so here sounds as good place as any.  Has anyone heard any rumours down at Dave that Leigh Byrne may be heading your way in the summer?  A pretty reliable rumour source (that used to post all the regional close season moves) has mentioned it else where.  Just wondering if any Dragons fans had heard it.

Fweind of mine saw it on Twitter - Charlie Morgan posted it

I'd much prefer some half decent props for the money we'd have to fork out on Byrne. Besides, we have Dan Evans, Prydie, Amos etc

I'd much rather Brew back  

I think Brew will be getting courted by a few regions, as being out of favour with the national side, and being a proven finisher etc, and also welsh (welsh qualified would be good enough). Players like himself and Byrne will be highly sort after commodities for the regions