New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

First topic message reminder :

"Rugby Union is too complicated to understand to attract a mass audience in the first place."

which is the problem for union fans..

because otherwise league or NFL could overtake rugby and kill it.

Off course the reality is it isnt to complicated and by far the best form, but if union doesn't progress(as at the moment it is by far the biggest global rugby type game) others will over take

1000th post on another article.

HammerofThunor wrote:1000th post on another article.

And that is just TJ

Someone should add up all the threads on this subject over the last 18 months or so.

You could probably power a small nation with the cpu cycles used on just this forum alone.

It seems this thread alone has just finished it's 5th cycle (others are 990 posts) so this is the 4963rd post (and at least 50% are almost direct copies of the same points, FACT)

  Do I get a prize for starting the 1st cycle of this thread

HammerofThunor wrote:It seems this thread alone has just finished it's 5th cycle (others are 990 posts) so this is the 4963rd post (and at least 50% are almost direct copies of the same points, FACT. End of)

Fixed that for you, Thunor, no charge on this occasion (unlike the RCC obvs, where you'll be charged for e/thing!!)

geoff998rugby wrote:  Do I get a prize for starting the 1st cycle of this thread

You get hounded off the site and forced to live in the dark corners of the internet. With the spectres of HERSH, GreyGhost, etc

In fact I'veonly just realised those 5000c posts were all AFTER qualification was supposedly agreed!

Those were the days when we thought qualification and finances was all that needed to be decided.

We were young (well some of you were) and naive then.

Little did we know it was only the start and that TV and Governance were what it was really about.

The scary thing is its got more complicated - is that Club Governance, ERC Governance, 6N Governance, FIRA Governance, Union Governance, 606v2 Governance

Only 2 1/2 months and still 3 1/2 months to the end of the season - we may not even be half way !!!!!

Me and TJ will get into a circular argument again not doubt. We'll breach that 10000 post target. All for you Geoff, think positive.

Can we close all threads on ERC/RCC governance and participation until there's something concrete out there - e.g. a press release?

Why? It hasn't stopped us until now. Also it gives those who are behaving irrationally over this (TJ   ) somewhere to vent. Previous there were around 5 or 6 threads all saying the same thing.

Also, in the future, when they're investigating the cause of World War III there will be unprecidented documated evidence.

HammerofThunor wrote:Me and TJ will get into a circular argument again not doubt. We'll breach that 10000 post target. All for you Geoff, think positive.

Speak for yourself! I am linear thru and thru

TJ wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Me and TJ will get into a circular argument again not doubt. We'll breach that 10000 post target. All for you Geoff, think positive.

Speak for yourself!  I am linear thru and thru

Yet, straight into the brick wall of common sense   

Irish Londoner wrote:Can we close all threads on ERC/RCC governance and participation until there's something concrete out there - e.g. a press release?

Problem is there's a press release every week. Unfortunately its normally a slightly passive aggressive re-wording of the official position taken by that organisation before Christmas.

There might be light at the end of the tunnel because the RFU are meeting with the FFR this week and if those two can agree on a way forward together they might be able to whip their clubs into shape over it. But we've heard this light at the end of the tunnel stuff many times before.

Lot of big meetings/deadlines to come.

Pro12 discussion with the Italian's next week
WRU deadline on SP due at end of the month

Things will liven up real soon

Saucer of cream for Mr Hammer   

96% of the universe so they say consists of thusfar undetectable dark matter.

Almost 0% of this debate and its precursors consists of Glorious Empire's posts.

As a devout/fundamentalist atheist, I scream "Praise the Lord"     

Its good to see heartfelt, earnest debate - even when the arguments regularly go OTT and circular.

TJ wrote:Saucer of cream for Mr Hammer   

Miaow...or did I miss a reference.

Portnoy, it gets heated at times because some feel very strongly about this and argue with passion while some of us just try and stick with logic...  

But I don't think there are any real WUM and everyone remembers every now and then to have a bit of a laugh at least.

TJ wrote:Seems to me another attempt by the RFU ( who generally have played a weak hand well) to find a way back in for the PRL teams.  I suspect the RFU are very unhappy at the prospect of no england teams in next years european cup but I would be very surprised if they get any significant further compromises for next year.

However to the 5N who runs the comp is not that important so long as the power remains with the unions is my reading of the situation.

Dunno what is really left to negotiate but to continue talking is good.

Actually the RFU are trying to get the French back to the table after they stormed out of the last meeting due to ghe refusal of the Rabo Unions to give up their monopoly on the governing body.

The French want the competition run by Fira not the Rabo Cabal.

RFU are pushing the 6 Nations committee as a compromise.

Nothing to do with getting the PRL back in.

Looks as though LNR have concluded their broadcasting deal with Canal +  :

www.sport.fr

Canal + remains the broadcaster Top 14


Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 22:30
Canal + has renewed the rights to broadcast the Top 14 for five more seasons at a total of € 335 million. A € 71 million on average per year, this contract is simply doubled compared to the previous! Sports competition bein pushed the auction.

What could have been the series of winter finally ended early. Canal + and the NRL have agreed on a new contract for 5 seasons through a strong appreciation: € 355 million in total, or 71 million on average per season, against 31.7 million in the current contract. For these conditions are définitiveement the Top 14 the richest domestic rugby championship of the world, the National Rugby League has operated perfectly. She exercised a clause allowing him to withdraw in early December, the current contract with Canal +, which was to expire at the end of the 2015-2016 season. Less than two weeks later, the NRL has barely had time to launch its tender: Canal + is returned to the charge with a "inrefusable" offer. The prospect of losing a major new element of its catalog of rights at the expense of bein Sports obviously freaked the encrypted string. Ironically, the call for tenders issued by the NRL was interrupted Friday in anticipation of a court for interim measures concerning a dispute between Canal + and Al-Jazeera. It will not ultimately revived. And for good reason: the NRL has gotten what she hoped. Canal + had initially proposed € 66 million per season. The League has pulled 5 more!"



The € 335 million might be a typo as they base their € 71 million per season on the € 355 million total.

Yeah, I think the 100M was a 'projection' the LNR came up with. So 71M a season is still pretty damn good from their point of view (not so much from 'ours').

Metal Tiger wrote:

TJ wrote:Seems to me another attempt by the RFU ( who generally have played a weak hand well) to find a way back in for the PRL teams.  I suspect the RFU are very unhappy at the prospect of no england teams in next years european cup but I would be very surprised if they get any significant further compromises for next year.

However to the 5N who runs the comp is not that important so long as the power remains with the unions is my reading of the situation.

Dunno what is really left to negotiate but to continue talking is good.

1. Actually the RFU are trying to get the French back to the table after they stormed out of the last meeting due to ghe refusal of the Rabo Unions to give up their monopoly on the governing body.

2. The French want the competition run by Fira not the Rabo Cabal.

3. RFU are pushing the 6 Nations committee as a compromise.

4. Nothing to do with getting the PRL back in.

1. The French are back in - read Lux's comments in WalesOnLine today. http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/european-rugby-chief-makes-passionate-6503607

Lux wrote:“Significantly, it has now been agreed by five unions (France, Ireland, Italy, Scotland and Wales) a European club competition run by the current organisers, ERC, will take place next season featuring clubs from at least five countries.”

2. Not next year. Its up for discussion after that.
3. There is little difference between the Six Nations & ERC - they are both Union owned companies that manage competition. You do realise that the CEO of the Six Nations Co. is also the CEO of Celtic Rugby (Pro 12)   
4. The PRL have burnt their boats alright. No Heineken Cup for them next year.

HammerofThunor wrote:Yeah, I think the 100M was a 'projection' the LNR came up with. So 71M a season is still pretty damn good from their point of view (not so much from 'ours').

Indeed. A serious amount of money for rugby union. Maybe SKY will match it for the Rabo    ....... I can dream .....

HammerofThunor wrote:Yeah, I think the 100M was a 'projection' the LNR came up with. So 71M a season is still pretty damn good from their point of view (not so much from 'ours').

Is that for the Pro D2 as well (16 teams)?

Sin e, not sure. But that was what I was thinking since it's the LNR who cover both. But it seems to be for televising the t14 rather than d2 as well.

Bad news for both SH and NH rugby. Something must be done now but I suspect everyone will just sit back and let it all happen.

A European cup under union control is what is going to happen next year. 5N have agreed to this. England can join or not as they wish. After that its all up for negotiation.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Bad news for both SH and NH rugby. Something must be done now but I suspect everyone will just sit back and let it all happen.

I'm not sure what can be done. I can't see the AP ever matching French money, let alone the Rabo or Super 15. Britain, Ireland and Italy could team up for a competition that could attract similar money? There's another thread on that idea. But the union owned teams and privately owned teams aren't exactly getting along very well.

It's gonna get much harder for the rest of the world to keep hold of their players. The French used to sign a lot of older players who's test careers were coming to an end. Recently they've been going for current internationals in their prime. And now they have even more money.

Maybe the other nations could go the New Zealand route and only select natively based players for their test teams. It would result in more players resisting the Top14 for sure. But not all. New Zealand produce world class players to replace any that leave. Can we?

It's difficult to see what can be done. Except just keep plugging away trying to produce more talent and attract more fans. The French are setting the bar for attracting cash, we have to raise our game.

By the way are there any multi billionaire Leinster supporters on 606v2 who just have to much money to know what to do with?

HammerofThunor wrote:Sin e, not sure. But that was what I was thinking since it's the LNR who cover both. But it seems to be for televising the t14 rather than d2 as well.

Nope that's only T14. ProD2 gets broadcasted by eurosport. 70 mil per year is nice but not a huge investment for C+ to keep a decent amount of customers. They sell their subscription at 40€ per month while the competitor Bein is at 11€ (only sports) with no minimum duration. Without sports, canal + would die as you better use PPV or streaming for movies and series.

Looks like the LNR got bullied in the end. Bit of a shame for the viewers.

whocares wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Sin e, not sure. But that was what I was thinking since it's the LNR who cover both. But it seems to be for televising the t14 rather than d2 as well.

Nope that's only T14. ProD2 gets broadcasted by eurosport. 70 mil per year is nice but not a huge investment for C+ to keep a decent amount of customers. They sell their subscription at 40€ per month while the competitor Bein is at 11€ (only sports) with no minimum duration. Without sports, canal + would die as you better use PPV or streaming for movies and series.

Looks like the LNR got bullied in the end. Bit of a shame for the viewers.

That makes more sense. I was looking at the numbers and if it was for all 30 teams it wasn't that great.

Feckless Rogue wrote:   Maybe the other nations could go the New Zealand route and only select natively based players for their test teams.

Scotand and Wales wouldn't be able to raise a team   

Feckless Rogue wrote: By the way are there any multi billionaire Leinster supporters on 606v2 who just have to much money to know what to do with?  

No problem in Ulster we have Rory  

Pardon me for interrupting, but it seems to me (and I' sorry to make this point) that the paranational Rabo is a bit of a TV disaster.

Can anyone receive legal coverage of all games?

Here in England I certainly can't (I think) what with Sky Italia, The Irish coverage and dear old Auntie who insists on delivering in some sort of a Serbo-Croat derivative on the 'puter. It's a feikin' shambles.

Not exactly what you'd consider as an organised body - the Rabo - is it?

Just like the PRL, it stumbles over every hurdle.

I've only missed 1 Ulster game this year and that was not on TV anywhere.

All games watched through legal channels

geoff998rugby wrote:I've only missed 1 Ulster game this year and that was not on TV anywhere.

All games watched through legal channels

Not interested in the Italian derbies then geoff?

I'm asking if the Rabo has joined-up coverage.

I wonder where BeIN will spread their largesse now?

Presumably there will be french-based Euro Cup games up for grabs next season?

Might they compete with Sky and BT for exclusive Euro Cup rights, selling on to B&I broadcasters?

Would they move into the English-speaking euro market to complement their US/Canada operation, broadcasting either on TV or t'internet?

No it doesn't. Because of the multinational nature of it each union arranges its own coverage.

TJ wrote:No it doesn't.  Because of the multinational nature of it each union arranges its own coverage.

Hold the phone. "Because of the multinational nature of it each union arranges its own coverage"!!!! WTF have we been arguing about for FK how long? What was all this XXXX about 'controlling the revenue stream'? So it's ok for all the individual unions in the PRO12 to sell their own TV but not ok for England? Is that because England's a massive market and everyone else wants to makes sure they squeeze as much money out of it for their their own gains as possible? Why's that?

See, I know it wouldn't take me long.

Hammer - the pro 12 was set up this way with the agreement of all unions. The HC was set up differently with the agreement of all unions. Thats the difference.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I've only missed 1 Ulster game this year and that was not on TV anywhere.

All games watched through legal channels

Not interested in the Italian derbies then geoff?

I'm asking if the Rabo has joined-up coverage.

There is some joined up coverage but it doesn't cover every game.
Often a TV provider will have an agreement with the TV provider of the away team to show the game on their channel as well - that s how I watch the away games in Italy.
This in effect means I can see Ulster games in Wales and Scotland for example but cannot watcxh a Welsh team play a Scottish.

Also occassionally I can watch games in other areas - no problem watching the southern Irish games on RTE and TNAG, sometimes can watch ScrumV games in Wales but not always.
This can be different for differing TV provider - my mate can, through Virgin, watch all Welsh and Scottish televised games as well

I suspect far more Pro12 games are covered than Aviva games - most of which are not on the tele live anywhere.

HammerofThunor wrote:

TJ wrote:No it doesn't.  Because of the multinational nature of it each union arranges its own coverage.

Hold the phone. "Because of the multinational nature of it each union arranges its own coverage"!!!! WTF have we been arguing about for FK how long? What was all this XXXX about 'controlling the revenue stream'? So it's ok for all the individual unions in the PRO12 to sell their own TV but not ok for England? Is that because England's a massive market and everyone else wants to makes sure they squeeze as much money out of it for their their own gains as possible? Why's that?

See, I know it wouldn't take me long.

I agree but its the HEC who had it right and the Rabo which got it wrong. There needs to be a collective package for the whole league otherwise the teams from the better supported countries end up getting more than those from the less supported and the league becomes even more imbalanced and less competitive.

It also makes it less attractive to sponsors, who are sponsoring the tournament in its entirety.

Rodders - I tend to agree and hope we get better TV coverage in the next deal.

rodders wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

TJ wrote:No it doesn't.  Because of the multinational nature of it each union arranges its own coverage.

Hold the phone. "Because of the multinational nature of it each union arranges its own coverage"!!!! WTF have we been arguing about for FK how long? What was all this XXXX about 'controlling the revenue stream'? So it's ok for all the individual unions in the PRO12 to sell their own TV but not ok for England? Is that because England's a massive market and everyone else wants to makes sure they squeeze as much money out of it for their their own gains as possible? Why's that?

See, I know it wouldn't take me long.

I agree but its the HEC who had it right and the Rabo which got it wrong. There needs to be a collective package for the whole league otherwise the teams from the better supported countries end up getting more than those from the less supported and the league becomes even more imbalanced and less competitive.

It also makes it less attractive to sponsors, who are sponsoring the tournament in its entirety.

But no-one is talking about money being kept by the sellers.  Why is collectively selling the rights important if the money is pooled? The only issue I can think about is that all the games wouldn't be on the same broadcaster.  That isn't a bad thing IMO.

All of the English games are available non-live (I'm glad the PRL kept that).

EDIT: Half of the Premiership games are on live, all are available not-live.

HammerofThunor wrote:

rodders wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

TJ wrote:No it doesn't.  Because of the multinational nature of it each union arranges its own coverage.

Hold the phone. "Because of the multinational nature of it each union arranges its own coverage"!!!! WTF have we been arguing about for FK how long? What was all this XXXX about 'controlling the revenue stream'? So it's ok for all the individual unions in the PRO12 to sell their own TV but not ok for England? Is that because England's a massive market and everyone else wants to makes sure they squeeze as much money out of it for their their own gains as possible? Why's that?

See, I know it wouldn't take me long.

I agree but its the HEC who had it right and the Rabo which got it wrong. There needs to be a collective package for the whole league otherwise the teams from the better supported countries end up getting more than those from the less supported and the league becomes even more imbalanced and less competitive.

It also makes it less attractive to sponsors, who are sponsoring the tournament in its entirety.

But no-one is talking about money being kept by the sellers.  Why is collectively selling the rights important if the money is pooled? The only issue I can think about is that all the games wouldn't be on the same broadcaster.  That isn't a bad thing IMO.

All of the English games are available non-live (I'm glad the PRL kept that).

EDIT: Half of the Premiership games are on live, all are available not-live.

If fully participated European competitons take place at some point in the future I'd be keen for it to be on more than one broadcaster.  That should mean less Heineken matches not being televised (Exeter have had 3 of their pool fixtures ignored this year) and greater availability of Amlin games (all the more important if we see the suggested changes to the teams involved in that competition).

Munchkin wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Yeah, I think the 100M was a 'projection' the LNR came up with. So 71M a season is still pretty damn good from their point of view (not so much from 'ours').

Indeed. A serious amount of money for rugby union. Maybe SKY will match it for the Rabo    ....... I can dream .....

Sadly you'll need to wake from that dream.

It's been reported that Sky are paying £5.5M ayear for their PRO12 coverage, with BBCwales/S4C paying £3.2M, BBC and the Irish and Scottish rights worth around £300K a year (that Irish+Scottish figure seems ridiculously small IMO)

Sorry boys, but this thread has reached the en of the line, can someone please open another one.