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The Ashes - Player Ratings

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Post by guildfordbat Tue 07 Jan 2014, 12:09 pm

CF appears to be slacking so here's the thread from me of all who played in the series.

Australia
Rogers 8
Warner 8
Watson 7
Clarke 8
Smith 8
Bailey 6 (his catches get him an extra point)
Haddin 9
Johnson 9
Siddle 8
Harris 8 (unfortunate I'm rounding down, not up)
Lyon 8

England
Cook 4
Carberry 5
Bell 4
Pietersen 5
Ballance 5
Stokes 7
Bairstow 4
Borthwick 5
Broad 7
Anderson 5
Rankin 4
Root 5
Prior 4
Bresnan 5
Tremlett 5
Panesar 3
Trott 4
Swann 4.

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Post by Stella Tue 07 Jan 2014, 12:25 pm

Nice ratings.

I know there are no half marks, but would think Harris deserves a 9 rather than an 8.

Rankin's 4 is a little high. He was useless.

Good stuff, Guildford.
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Post by GSC Tue 07 Jan 2014, 12:27 pm

Kind on England slightly
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Post by Guest Tue 07 Jan 2014, 12:48 pm

lol sorry Guildford, here are mine!



England

Cook - 4
Carberry - 4
Trott - minus
KP - 6
Bell - 4
Root - 6 (very unlucky to be dropped)
Prior - minus (was awful)
Swann - 1
Broad - 8 (bowled really well england's MOS)
Anderson - 5
Tremlett - minus (why was he even there)
Ballance - 5
Bairstow - 2 (useless)
Stokes - 7
Borthwick - 4
Bresnan - 3
Panesar - 3

Australia

Rogers - 8
Warner - 8
Watson - 7
Clarke - 5 (failed away after past couple of tests)
Smith - 8
Bailey - 5
Haddin - 9
Johnson - 11 (really was that good!)
Harris - 8
Siddle - 8
Lyon - 7

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Post by KP_fan Tue 07 Jan 2014, 12:56 pm

Generally good.......I have inserted my comments where i think differently.
In general I do not have an approach to be charitable and give some points when the guy didn't do anywhere close to what was expected.
Nor hold back a perfect score when the player did all that one can

guildfordbat wrote:CF appears to be slacking so here's the thread from me of all who played in the series.

Australia
Rogers 8
Warner 8
Watson 7....I would given him 6, his runs were cheap runs
Clarke 8.........7 he fell off in the second half of the tour
Smith 8
Bailey 6 (his catches get him an extra point)........I would give him 2 points...1 for fielding and 1 for batting
Haddin 9......what more can we expect......I would give him 10 or even a bonus 11
Johnson 9...perfect 10.....what more can you exepct
Siddle 8
Harris 8   (unfortunate I'm rounding down, not up)..........9 he was great
Lyon 8

England
Cook 4..........captaincy points would pull him down to 3
Carberry 5..........if he is 5 he should play for Eng....but he won't means he was much below desired......3 at best
Bell 4
Pietersen 5
Ballance 5.....that's too charitable for one who scored barely 20 runs in 2 innings......3 is my score
Stokes 7......what more can you ask of him ??.....9 would be my score
Bairstow 4
Borthwick 5.......3..not just effort but quality and delivery also that count
Broad 7....Braod is a 9......manful, uncomplianing and delievred......captaincy material in my view
Anderson 5..
Rankin 4........anderson 5 is OK and on that scale Rankin should be 1 or 2 at most
Root 5
Prior 4
Bresnan 5
Tremlett 5.......Tremlett should be one...no charity points......he couldn't ball anywhere close to like he promised
Panesar 3
Trott 4
Swann 4.
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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue 07 Jan 2014, 1:05 pm

maybe slightly denerous on Siddle/harsh on Broad, reckon they deserve to be rated on about the same. Some of the England ratings seem a little generous at times (I have less qualms about giving out 2's and 3's), and wouldn't give Bailey a 6. For what it's worth, and baring in mind I saw little of the series (mostly highlights and a few days, so also going on stats).

Aus:
Rogers - 8: an excellent if belated find for Aus, has given them some much needed stability at the top of the order, benefited from Swann's retirement certainly, but made the most of it. Also fielded very well from what I saw, lots of important stops and mid-off/on to keep the pressure on.
Warner - 7: a few useful starts in the first innings, and some big runs in second digs, albeit when Aus had a position of strength (some would call them "soft" runs). Unfortunately is a total jerk (comments about Trott, his reaction to his century in Perth where he runs off to celebrate in Prior's face, etc.), so loses a little for that. Fielding was slightly below average by his exceptional standards (couple of missed runouts and the odd fumble).
Watson - 7: very much "the usual" from Watson for most of the series. Got starts almost always, and then got out, with the exception of a spanking century in Perth, where the game was almost already won when he came to the wicket anyway. Did play a crucial knock in the run chase in Melbourne, and his bowling was as reliable as ever. I was a little unconvinced by his catching at slip (seemed to sometimes go with slightly hard hands), but the Bell drop aside was pretty solid there.
Clarke - 8: form with the bat tailed off a bit in the second half of the series, but two excellent centuries to set up wins in the first two Tests (his Adelaide knock in particular). Captained the team really well, used Johnson superbly (and Lyon too).
Smith - 8: really growing into the n°5 role with two very very fine centuries to get his side out of trouble. Excellent fielder, and picked up some useful wickets with his leg spin.
Bailey - 4: a nice 50 in Adelaide, but other than that the only knock of consequence was with the game well and truly won in Sydney (albeit in a dodgy position at the time). Fielded well, but to me has little future as a Test batsman.
Haddin - 10: what the hell, he deserves it! Brilliant with bat and blemish-free with the gloves. Came in time and again with Aus in trouble and dug them out of it. England just never found a way of getting him out. The fact his only two failures came when Aus had all but won the game speaks volumes. Magnificent!
Johnson - 9.5: began the fightback in Brisbane with the bat, before blowing England away time and again. England's batsmen (and tail) just couldn't cope with his pace and hostility. Very, very good. Can he keep this level of performance is now the big question.
Harris - 8.5: a fine foil for Johnson, bowled some superb deliveries to pick up wickets at key times, and chipped in with some useful knocks with the bat.
Siddle - 7.5: Mr reliable. Barely bowled a bad ball all series (except Perth, where he bowled too short in the second innings), and the perfect third seamer. His dominance of KP was a key factor early on in the series.
Lyon - 8: on pitches which didn't do too much he did really well, never letting England get after him and pitching in with some big wickets. Used his bounce to great effect. Also a really fine fielder at leg gully/leg slip where he took some excellent catches.

England - won't go into so much detail:
Cook - 4: struggled with the bat, and looked increasingly tired as the series wore on.
Carberry - 4.5: some useful starts but never kicked on and never imposed himself on the Aus attack. Fielding veared between average and woeful.
Root - 3.5: battled hard but looked out of nick, and more worryingly unable to get going, needs to play his natural game more.
KP - 5: England's highest run scorer, which doesn't say much, but played some nice knocks. People will criticise his shots for getting out, but as those are the same people who blast England's negative tactics I wouldn't take too much notice. Good motivation in the field, but didn't impose himself as much as he'd have liked.
Bell - 4: looked a shadow of the player who tormented Aus at home. Too passive, it's not a coicidence his two decent innings were when he expressed himself.
Ballance - 5: hard to judge on one Test, but looks to be a confident young guy, who has enough about him to suggest he has a future. needs to work on his fitness, and his batting against spin.
Stokes - 7.5: picked almost by accident you felt with Trott's departure, but was the find of the series. Bowled some great spells (a tad expensive, but makes things happen), and batted better than I'd ever seen him. Looks organised, positive mindset, and a very bright future.
Prior - 3: managed a half-century in an already lost cause, but his form continues to elude him, and it eventually affected his glovework.
Bairstow - 3: didn't do any better than Prior. Kept OK I thought (people will blame him for the Rogers drop, but for me it's more a case of not being used to his slip cordon enough), but question marks remain over his batting. He has the talent, but there are a lot of flaws to iron out.
Broad - 7.5: England's other bright light. Started the series superbly and kept going strong throughout, suffered a lot of abuse at the hands of the Aus crowds, but one suspects even they will offer him some grudging respect now. While his batting wasn't great, he did produce a few battling innings.
Swann - 3: a tour to forget. The Aus batsmen got after him ruthlessly, and contributed nothing with the bat, before his shock retirement mid-tour. England's best spinner since Underwood (at least), and it's a shame it had to end this way.
Borthwick - 5.5: again, tough to judge on one Test, and his four wickets may have flattered him somewhat, but a great attitude, not scared of taking the Aus batsmen on. Not really ready yet, but may have to learn his trade the hard way, for lack of better options.
Bresnan - 4: very useful spell in Melbourne, but other than that ineffective, both in taking wickets and in keeping the runs down. One worries England picked him too soon, but can't really blame them for that given what the other options showed. Didn't do much with the bat.
Anderson - 5: kept going throughout despite some tough times. Lack of sideways movement both converntional and reverse didn't help him, and by Sydney he looked knackered. Produced some good spells where he didn't necessarily get his reward, but a long way from his best.
Tremlett - 4: did a useful job in the first innings, and picked up a few cheap slog wickets, so on paper did OK, but he just wasn't fit. The Surrey fans warned us, but the England management just didn't seem/want to notice, a bad call.
Rankin - 2.5: meh, don't see anything special in him, didn't look threatening, and relieved all the pressure on the afternoon of day 1 in Sydney.
Panesar - 2: bit of a shocker. Bowled badly throughout (except maybe day 1 in Adelaide), Cook seemed to lose faith in him, and apparently not the best tourist. Batting and fielding are now unacceptable by modern international standards.

EDIT: haven't rated Trott, nor shall I. Mental illness a terrible thing to have to deal with, wish him all the best.

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Post by Mike Selig Tue 07 Jan 2014, 1:27 pm

A few usual oddities CF...

I accept that Clarke faded away to mark him the same as Bailey and Ballance, less than Root, KP and Watson? No marks for captaincy either?
Tremlett as minus when he took 4 wickets at a respectable average strikes me as odd also, as does Root 2 marks above Carberry...

Anyway my ratings (with half-marks), along with small justifications:

Warner: 8 - set the tone for the series by dominating England from the outset; just as crucial as his second innings hundreds IMO were his quick runs in the first innings getting Aus off to a good start. Gains half a mark for his fielding.

Rogers: 8 - often the unsung hero, but held the top order together. A very good calming influence on the Aus side. Should have been MotM at Melbourne.

Watson: 6 - 5 for his batting, still the recursive problems of getting in then getting out. Deserved more credit for his innings in Melbourne, Australia were still under pressure when he came in. 7 for his bowling which played a key part in rotating Johnson.

Clarke: 8.5 - his 2nd innings hundred at Brisbane was important because of the way he dealt with the short ball and its effect on England's morale (where previously they thought they had the Aussie skipper where they wanted). his 1st innings ton at Adelaide and the way he smacked Panesar and Swann around was crucial. Thereafter he did less well, but the damage had largely been done. Captained, led and caught brilliantly as well.

Smith : 8 - hopefully a coming of age series for him. Built his hundreds really well, and both came with his team in real strife. Caught beautifully as well.

Bailey: 5 - I too award him a mark for fielding, but looked slightly out of his depth with the bat. A few decent starts, but looked vulnerable to swing/seam, spin and the bouncer.

Haddin: 9 - outstanding,. Runs in every match when it mattered most, kept brilliantly.

Johnson: 9.5 - no comments necessary, if only to highlight his fielding as well.

Siddle: 8 - had KP in his pocket. Often outshone by his colleagues, but equally important.

Harris: 8.5 - bowled brilliantly first up. Scored demoralising runs and took some really really good catches.

Lyon: 8 - did his job as well as anyone could have asked for. Proved useful with the bat (how would the 4th test have finished without his runs; he could indeed easily have been MotM there), and took some brilliant catches as well.

England is a bit tougher given some guys only played 1 test, but here goes:

Cook: 4 - struggled with the bat, and when he got in couldn't go on (twice out cutting the off-spinner as well). Struggled to command his team as captain, and too often too passive.

Carberry: 4 - loses a mark for his fielding which was dodgy. Looked as if this is as good as he can be, which unfortunately is not good enough.

Trott; unwilling to mark in the circumstances.

KP: 5 - England's top run-scorer, which says more about the rest than him. Got himself out in stupid ways on 2 occasions, and at others seemed confused about how to play. Just bat Kevin. Looked like he was carrying a niggle in the field (which I understand he was).

Bell: 4 - needs to be more positive, too often allowed the bowlers to bowl to him. Fielded well though.

Root: 4 - I like the guy, but this was a horror series really apart from one knock. Issues over technique clear and he has to go away and work on them. Not helped by being moved up, down, up.

Ballance: 5 - looked decent in the first innings. Out to good balls both times.

Stokes: 7.5 - obviously the find of the tour, although we must be careful of not bigging him up too much too soon (just ask Bairstow...). Bowled with good aggression, and looked increasingly the part with the bat. Gains half a mark for his fielding.

Bairstow: 3 - his batting worries me more than his keeping, which is average but not as bad as some have made out.

Prior: 4 - batting was poor apart from when the game was gone; keeping was good up until Perth.

Borthwick: 5 - enough encouragement there to see what England are to do with him.

Bresnan: 5 - bowled better than some have suggested (good in the first innings at both Perth and Melbourne I thought). Let down by his batting, which couldn't handle this Aus attack.

Broad: 7.5 - comfortably the pick of England's bowlers. An unspeakable shot to get out at Perth.

Swann: 4 - bowling was poor as we all know (although I thought he bowled ok at Perth TBH). Batting was dreadful by his standards. Fielded well though.

Tremlett: 4.5 - bowled ok, if not what England would have wanted from him. Loses half a mark for his fielding.

Anderson: 6 - bowled better than he is sometimes given credit for. Forced by circumstances to at times act as a stock-bowler, and seemed unable to revert to a fuller length in Sydney. Kept things quiet though, and Australia were happy to see him off. Bullied with the bat. Fielded well.

Panesar: 3 - IMO he has escaped criticism far too easily because of circumstance. Bowled pretty poorly at Adelaide, and dreadfully at Melbourne. Fielding was atrocious as usual - his missed half-chance off Haddin early on day 2 at Adelaide proved to be crucial but has been forgotten; fought well with the bat.

Rankin: 3 - don't want to judge him too harshly, but didn't look the part.

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Post by kwinigolfer Tue 07 Jan 2014, 5:20 pm

Not sure what thread this belongs on but let's give it a whirl here:
England's last five wickets scored less than half Australia's: 79 to 161.

Who gets the blame for that?

England's top order batsman who fail to shepherd the tail? (A point made earlier, perhaps by guildford?)
England's tail?
England's bowling whose front-line attack bowled well enough to put Australia in trouble, but them and the supporting cast could never finish the job?
England's captaincy and fielding?
Haddin?
Clarke's captaincy?

I'm sure it's a bit of all the above, but it's a dismal trend for England and surely needs to be addressed.

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Tue 07 Jan 2014, 5:32 pm

Pretty much agree with Mike's markings. Several of the 4s may be a bit generous eg for Cook.  Haddin could be 9.5 or even 10.

In fact MforC's markings also v good in marking down further some of England's strugglers. And thanks for highlighting the point about Tremlett. Indeed have to say it was not just Guildford and me going on about his fitness etc on this site- great deal of wider bafflement across Surrey supporters' website. A big minus for whoever in the England set up thought selecting him for the tour was a good plan despite the evidence to contrary.

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Tue 07 Jan 2014, 5:59 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Not sure what thread this belongs on but let's give it a whirl here:
England's last five wickets scored less than half Australia's: 79 to 161.

Who gets the blame for that?

England's top order batsman who fail to shepherd the tail? (A point made earlier, perhaps by guildford?)
England's tail?
England's bowling whose front-line attack bowled well enough to put Australia in trouble, but them and the supporting cast could never finish the job?
England's captaincy and fielding?
Haddin?
Clarke's captaincy?

I'm sure it's a bit of all the above, but it's a dismal trend for England and surely needs to be addressed.

Was the difference only double - fellt a lot more than that!

Factors - probably all of the above.  Plus England's management/coaching unable to change the team's negative psychology / confidence.

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Post by kwinigolfer Tue 07 Jan 2014, 6:52 pm

Surprisingly, and if Sydney was omitted, the first five wickets in innings that went that far only had a 30-run disparity.

I'd say not giving Trott a rating is a cop-out - shouldn't have he put his hand up before they left? Can't believe this was a spur-of-the-moment decision.
And still think Swann's runner was a disgrace. Just when Cook might have looked to his senior pros for leadership, they'd taken to the lifeboats.
I'd give esprit-de-corps, as exhibited on the field, a big fat zero.

All of which needs to be addressed - is Captain Cook to blame? Or is something else going on?

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Post by Mike Selig Wed 08 Jan 2014, 11:04 am

kwinigolfer wrote:
I'd say not giving Trott a rating is a cop-out - shouldn't have he put his hand up before they left? Can't believe this was a spur-of-the-moment decision.

Apparently (and I should stress we almost certainly don't know the full story on this, nor necessarily should we) Trott's mental problems were not new, and were known to the England management, but he had successfully overcome them in the past. On this occasion they worsened to the extent that he (possibly with the input of the staff) felt he could no longer be part of the team. In that respect it is a bit like someone arriving with a bit of a niggle, the niggle turning into an outright debilitating injury and hence the player having to go home; in that case I am fairly sure we wouldn't think of attaching blame to the player (all he has done is tried to play through his injury to help the team), so nor should we here (replacing injury by illness).

As for your question about the respective tails, the answer is pretty much "all of the above". I think Johnson's bowling and Haddin's batting (as well as Prior's lack of it) are probably the two most important factors.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 08 Jan 2014, 11:59 am

Mike Selig wrote:Bailey: 5 - A few decent starts, but looked vulnerable to swing/seam, spin and the bouncer.

Should've just put "bowling" here Mike  Wink 
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 08 Jan 2014, 12:22 pm

Olly wrote:
Mike Selig wrote:Bailey: 5 -  A few decent starts, but looked vulnerable to swing/seam, spin and the bouncer.

Should've just put "bowling" here Mike  Wink 

If you can describe what Swann was doing as bowling.


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Post by jimbohammers Wed 08 Jan 2014, 12:50 pm

Australia
Rogers 8
Warner 8
Watson 7
Clarke 8
Smith 8
Bailey 5
Haddin 10
Johnson 9
Siddle 8
Harris 9
Lyon 8

England
Cook 3
Carberry 6
Bell 4
Pietersen 6
Ballance 5
Stokes 7
Bairstow 3
Borthwick 4
Broad 8
Anderson 4
Rankin 3
Root 5
Prior 4
Bresnan 5
Tremlett 5
Panesar 3
Trott 4
Swann 4.

For me...

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Post by guildfordbat Wed 08 Jan 2014, 3:50 pm

Apart from CF (who is always the 'Pietersen' or maverick figure when it comes to this type of thing - and we probably need that!), very similar ratings.

Don't believe Mike or Jimbo were ever more than 1 point different from me whilst MfC (congrats on the wedding btw!) was only 2 points different from me on one player, Bailey.

Noticeable thing was how very few 6s there were. That's my mark for a 'satisfactory but no more' performance. Only Stokes and Broad topped that figure whilst the other England players were generally below it (with the occasional exception). For Australia, nine of their players were always above 6 with Watson and Bailey hovering around/above or around/below the 6 rating respectively.

Thus, only two players being more than satisfactory for England and only two being satisfactory or less for Australia. Rather tells the story.

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Post by kingraf Wed 08 Jan 2014, 4:14 pm

Cook 4 - Only (one down for captaincy)
Carberry 5 - I mean what are some of you doing giving him the same score as Bell when he had to face Johnson with a new cherry, and was the second highest run scorer?
Trott - 2. Okay he wasnt quite all there, but he played, and he didn't play well
KP - 6
Bell - 4
Stokes - 7
Prior - 3
Bairstow - 2-ish
Broad - 7
Anderson - 3 - as the second best bowler in the world (as picked by everyone who told I'm nuts for having anyone else above him) going at 40 is an abomination. Marked one down for the 28 run over against Bailey of all people.
Swann - 3.94 (Decimal selected to humorously also be the value of his economy rate)
Bresnan - 2 (where are the runs beefy Tim?)
Monty - 4 (+1 for presumably peeing on someone Cook cares about, which is my explanation for why cook snubbed him in Melbourne)
Ballance - 4 - Shoulda looked for a South African instead.
Rankin - 2 -
Borthwick 1 - yeah he took wickets... but 82 runs in 13 overs????

Warner - 8 (Minus one for the matches post Big Bash)
Rogers - 8
Watson - 7
Clarke - 8
Smith - 7
Bailey - 4 (I assume this was also his average)
Haddin - 9
Johnson - 10
Siddle - 8
Harris - 8
Lyon - 8.5
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Post by Born Slippy Thu 09 Jan 2014, 6:15 am

Cook - 3 : Got a few good deliveries but got himself out in terrible fashion on a number of occasions. Even when he did get in failed to make a big score at all. Captaincy was decidedly ordinary.

Carberry - 5 : Generally stayed in long enough to see off the new ball and displayed a solid technique and calmness. However, shot range was limited and failed to make a big score. One extremely poor and costly drop in the field. At 33, needed more to keep his place.

Root - 4 : Similar to Carberry in that he grafted hard without ever being able to free himself from the shackles. Technical problems need correcting if he is to be a long term 3.

KP - 4 : A couple of decent knocks but more or less every innings ended with a brainless shot. Continually getting out to Siddle was unimpressive. The issue was compounded by the fact he didn't impose himself and play his natural tame when he was at the crease.

Bell - 4 : started promisingly with a couple of fluent knocks but gradually tailed off as the tour proceeded and England's confidence waned.

Stokes - 8 : Couldn't really have expected more with a hundred and a 5-fer. Looked particularly impressive with the bat and a knack of making things happen with the ball.

Ballance - 5 : Must have wondered what he'd let himself in for when he came out to bat on debut with less than 20 on the board. Looked compact and was got out by good balls in both innings.

Prior - 2 : woeful with the bat and keeping also started to suffer. Rightly rested. Needs to re-discover his mojo.

Bairstow - 3 : England obviously see something in him but at the moment his batting isn't test standard and he isn't a good enough keeper.

Broad - 7 : Bowled well but batting was very ordinary until the last test.

Swann - 3 : Extremely disappointing display from the best finger spinner of the last 5 years. Retirement just added to the sense this tour was going terribly wrong.

Tremlett - 5 : Lacked the threat of the last tour with pace well down but bowled with some control.

Bresnan - 4 : Rushed back and provided a couple of good spells but not overly threatening. No contribution with the bat.

Borthwick - 5 : Picked up a few wickets and looked to have something about him. However, bowling has a long way to go and failed twice with the bat.

Anderson - 5 : Got no swing or movement. Mainly bowled a decent line but too short at times. Not his usual threat.

Panesar - 3 : Didn't bowl well.

Rankin - 3 : Looked short of test class.



Rogers - 8
Warner - 8
Watson - 7
Clarke - 8
Smith - 8
Bailey - 4
Haddin - 10
Johnson - 9
Siddle - 8
Harris - 9
Lyon - 8

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Post by CaledonianCraig Thu 09 Jan 2014, 8:59 am

My ratings are as follows and to be honest I can't help but feel I am still being a little too overly-generous with England players scores.

Australia

Rogers 8
Warner 8
Watson 7
Clarke 8
Smith 8
Bailey 5
Haddin 9
Johnson 9
Siddle 8
Harris 9
Lyon 8

England
Cook 4
Carberry 5
Bell 4
Pietersen 5
Ballance 4
Stokes 7
Bairstow 4
Borthwick 5
Broad 8
Anderson 5
Rankin 3
Root 5
Prior 4
Bresnan 5
Tremlett 5
Panesar 3
Trott 4
Swann 4.



CaledonianCraig
CaledonianCraig

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